A+J=T v. 4

[Jô Maltese]

None of those things are concrete evidence. YOu could possibly be correct, but I have read nothing in these books to prove it to me.

I can not prove anything and it was not my point. I was just countering those people (and you sound like one of those) who dismiss (want to disprove) this theory by saying 'you have no solid proof'. No we have not. But we are starting to have an awful lot of circumstantial and psychological evidence, like it or not. And in literature, even with GRRM (or because of?) non-standard style, it is as close as 'solid proof' you can get.

I have only read the Farseer trilogy as of yet, but first tell me why you believe that.

Mmmmh. I should probably encourage you to read the following trilogy (The Fool's), but my understanding of Fitz is that apart from his physical traits, the man he has become (in his late thirties in the second trilogy) was mostly shaped by what Verity (granted, his father's brother therefore not that different) and Burrich (his social father) taught him, not by his genetical heritage from Chivalry. When you read the second trilogy you realise that Fitz acts like Burrich towards his 'adopted' son and acts like Verity towards his biological/Verity's son...

[Stonehearted Snake]

I do not deny that there is a confirmation bias element in this theory (there is some in every theory - great scientific finds were triggered by confirmation biases), but this is not enough to refute the theory as long as it does not reach a dead end. And A+J=T has not so far, as opposed to A+J=J+C for instance. On the other hand, because we are not in Maths' territory but in Litterature's, the fact that this theory keeps remaining alive is per se another big, big clue.

This this this. Exactly. I had heard both the A+J=T and the A+J=J&C prior to the world book but didn't feel like there was enough textual evidence to provide a really firm foundation for either (and also hated them on a thematic level). But the world book not only nearly conclusively precludes A+J=J&C, it also drops huge hints for A+J=T. To me, that means a lot because this is, after all, a story coming from one man's mind, who in some way decided to include that information. Coincidence? Possibly. But is it definitely? Not at all. It seems more likely to not be a coincidence based on what we know of GRRM's writing. (And thanks to the awesome posters here I finally appreciate the theory thematically too).

[Mithras]

I don't remember the details of the Jorah quote. I thought he was just trying to convince Dany that she could marry him and someone else -- and together the 3 would be the three heads, like Aegon and this sisters. Jorah cannot really believe he would be able to ride a dragon -- even if he married Dany. Jorah has no Targ blood and would have to know that if he tried to ride a dragon he likely would killed.

So you are 100% sure that Jon Roxton, a minor noble from the Reach, had Targaryen blood because he was determined to try to mount a dragon. Just like Gormon Massey and Steffon Darklyn who were killed while trying to mount dragons.

The "dragon has three heads" does sound to me like something that woods witch would have said when talking about the prophecy. I don't think it is something that Rhaegar or Aemon simply made up. Dragons are neither male nor female is simply a statement about dragon biology -- which then can be analogized to TPTWP if the Old Valaryan word for prince and dragon are the same word. That issue is completely different from the dragon must have three heads, which both Rhaegar and Aemon seem to believe is part of TPTWP prophecy. So again, I do not rely on their personal interpretation, but they researched the contents carefully, and their reports of the elements of the contents should be 100% reliable.

Not at all. The GoHH said that tPtwP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. That is the textbook definition of a prophecy. However, "The Dragon has three heads" is not in any way similar to usual prophecies where we have things that are told to happen in the future.

Rhaegar and Aemon are the ones who interpreted this phrase as a prophecy. But they are not reliable by any means.

[Mithras]

How about this?

"And you want your own reward, is that it? Very well. What is it you would have of me? Lands, castle, some office?

"A little bloody gratitude would make a nice start."

Lord Tywin stared at him, unblinking.

"Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys, for that matter. You did as you were commanded, and I am sure it was to the best of your ability. no one denies the part you played."

So Tywin is staring at Tyrion, sizing him up, and who does Tyrion remind him of, out of the blue, for no reason?? Aerys. During the same discussion where Tyrion is wanting the rights to CR and what is coming to him as a trueborn son of Lannister, but of course Tywin does not give it to him? Why I wonder? Maybe it has something do with this a few sentences later; 'Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove you are not mine."

Gods this is so obvious.........

Not at all. Tyrion is displaying what he inherited from Tytos Lannister there. He too craved for the love and admiration of people.

[Chinoiserie]

Not at all. Tyrion is displaying what he inherited from Tytos Lannister there. He too craved for the love and admiration of people.

But why Tywin compares Tyrion to Aerys and not Tytos? That is the question. If someone who did not knew Tytos but suspected that Tyrion was Aerys's son said this you might have a point since that person could just be making up comparisons to Aerys that could be otherwise better expained. But Tywin certainly knows Tytos's carving for approval and knows him better you do. It would be logical to compare someone to their grandfather but Tywin compares Tyrion to Aerys who he never otherwise mentions out of the blue. When Tyrion compares Joffrey to Aerys Tywin does not agree so he does not have a habit comparing people to Aerys.

So you suggesting Tyrion is like Tytos could explain Tyrion's behaviour. But it does not explain Tywin's comments at all. It just makes them stranger when he could have a better person to compare Tyrion behaviour to.

[Lord Varys]

Well, Tywin may have known Tyrion's true heritage. Mithras does not.

[Jô Maltese]

But why Tywin compares Tyrion to Aerys and not Tytos? That is the question. If someone who did not knew Tytos but suspected that Tyrion was Aerys's son said this you might have a point since that person could just be making up comparisons to Aerys that could be otherwise better expained. But Tywin certainly knows Tytos's carving for approval and knows him better you do. It would be logical to compare someone to their grandfather but Tywin compares Tyrion to Aerys who he never otherwise mentions out of the blue. When Tyrion compares Joffrey to Aerys Tywin does not agree so he does not have a habit comparing people to Aerys.

So you suggesting Tyrion is like Tytos could explain Tyrion's behaviour. But it does not explain Tywin's comments at all. It just makes them stranger when he could have a better person to compare Tyrion behaviour to.

This.

[Mithras]

But why Tywin compares Tyrion to Aerys and not Tytos? That is the question. If someone who did not knew Tytos but suspected that Tyrion was Aerys's son said this you might have a point since that person could just be making up comparisons to Aerys that could be otherwise better expained. But Tywin certainly knows Tytos's carving for approval and knows him better you do. It would be logical to compare someone to their grandfather but Tywin compares Tyrion to Aerys who he never otherwise mentions out of the blue. When Tyrion compares Joffrey to Aerys Tywin does not agree so he does not have a habit comparing people to Aerys.

So you suggesting Tyrion is like Tytos could explain Tyrion's behaviour. But it does not explain Tywin's comments at all. It just makes them stranger when he could have a better person to compare Tyrion behaviour to.

Because Tywin does not even want to think about Tytos. The World Book proved that. It is even possible that Tywin had Tytos poisoned. It runs in the family. Tywin bit the finger of his grandfather who was most probably a kinslayer. That means he inherited the trade from him. Tytos' heart gave out, similar to the man Arya killed in her first mission.

[Lord Varys]

Tytos was a fat man climbing very steep steps. And there was no need for Tywin to murder his father. If he could exterminate the Reynes and Tarbecks without his father's approval, then the man was no threat to him. And I imagine that Tywin was quite happy with being Hand of the King at that time - also becoming the Lord of Casterly Rock in absentia meant that he had to take a more active part in the government of the West which have taken even more of his time - time he didn't really have. Not to mention that Joanna, Kevan, Tygett, and Gerion most likely were already calling the shots in the Westeros while Tytos was alive.

If Tywin had wanted to murder Tytos he should or would have done so after he returned from the Stepstones and had put down the rebels. Not nearly ten years later.

[Mithras]

Tytos was a fat man climbing very steep steps. And there was no need for Tywin to murder his father. If he could exterminate the Reynes and Tarbecks without his father's approval, then the man was no threat to him. And I imagine that Tywin was quite happy with being Hand of the King at that time - also becoming the Lord of Casterly Rock in absentia meant that he had to take a more active part in the government of the West which have taken even more of his time - time he didn't really have. Not to mention that Joanna, Kevan, Tygett, and Gerion most likely were already calling the shots in the Westeros while Tytos was alive.

If Tywin had wanted to murder Tytos he should or would have done so after he returned from the Stepstones and had put down the rebels. Not nearly ten years later.

He was a threat to him because he could have disinherited him easily, especially as Tywin growing darker every moment and perhaps Gerion was becoming his favourite son.

And if Tywin learned anything from his grandfather, he should not remove Tytos suspiciously like Gerold did.

[Lord Varys]

Tytos could have disinherited Tywin easily? Come on, Tywin could just have given his sire a little beating again, but this time quite severely, and things would have been fine again. The man certainly had not the guts to stand up to his son after the Reyne-Tarbeck thing. And nobody can disinherit the Hand of the King against his will, as the Hand could use his authority to declare that will null and void.

[Weirdo]

But why Tywin compares Tyrion to Aerys and not Tytos? That is the question. If someone who did not knew Tytos but suspected that Tyrion was Aerys's son said this you might have a point since that person could just be making up comparisons to Aerys that could be otherwise better expained. But Tywin certainly knows Tytos's carving for approval and knows him better you do. It would be logical to compare someone to their grandfather but Tywin compares Tyrion to Aerys who he never otherwise mentions out of the blue. When Tyrion compares Joffrey to Aerys Tywin does not agree so he does not have a habit comparing people to Aerys.

So you suggesting Tyrion is like Tytos could explain Tyrion's behaviour. But it does not explain Tywin's comments at all. It just makes them stranger when he could have a better person to compare Tyrion behaviour to.

When did Tyrion compare Joffrey to Aerys in front of Tywin? I'd like to read that scene again.

[Gerg Sknab]

When did Tyrion compare Joffrey to Aerys in front of Tywin? I'd like to read that scene again.

Isn't it the scene where Tywin says paraphasing here "Joffrey requires a sharp lesson". A Tyrion chapter somewhere early in ASOS.

[Chinoiserie]

When did Tyrion compare Joffrey to Aerys in front of Tywin? I'd like to read that scene again.

After Tywin sends Joffey to bed. Tywin says he did not won the war to put Robert II to the throne and Tyrion says more like Aerys III (or something similar).

[Chinoiserie]

He was a threat to him because he could have disinherited him easily, especially as Tywin growing darker every moment and perhaps Gerion was becoming his favourite son.

And if Tywin learned anything from his grandfather, he should not remove Tytos suspiciously like Gerold did.

What expecially dark Tywin did between the Raynes and Tytos's death?

Where anything about Gerion's and Tytos's relationship is mentioned? So not only did Tytos wish to disinherit is first born son who had nothing to merit this except "becoming dark" Tytos would like to do this in favor of his 4th son? Who must have been a teenager when Tytos died because Tygett was 10 during the war or Ninepenny Kings and Gerion was younger than Tygett. When we know nothing about Gerion except he was funny and kind of reckless to sail to Valyria and had a bastard daughter.

This really is your theory?

[Gerg Sknab]

After Tywin sends Joffey to bed. Tywin says he did not won the war to put Robert II to the throne and Tyrion says more like Aerys III (or something similar).

Tyrion saying Joffrey is Aerys III maybe closer to the truth than he realized.

Tyrion himself is Lannister of that there can be no doubt. The reason he is a dwarf is Lannister inbreeding. Tywin and Joanna are first cousins. His grandmothers are Prester and Marbrand noted Lannister bannermen who I would suggest have a fair bit of Lannister blood in their veins...The closest noted relation outside the Westerlands is Rohanne Webber a great grandmother hailing from the Reach (no other information is offered for other unnamed ggp's)

Joffrey is proof of a coupling between Aerys and Joanna thru Cersei and Jamie

Doesn't it just take the cake on Robert's deathbed he reinstalls the Targanisters to the throne.

[Weirdo]

After Tywin sends Joffey to bed. Tywin says he did not won the war to put Robert II to the throne and Tyrion says more like Aerys III (or something similar).

Got it, ASOS 54 Tyrion.

Joff gets lippy at Tywin in council, accuses him of having been frightened of Aerys, and calls him a coward for sitting out the rebellion at CR. Tywin sends him to his room.

Time to crank up the ol' confirmation bias:

“Not Robert the Second,” Tyrion said. “Aerys the Third.”

“The boy is thirteen. There is time yet.” Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. “He requires a sharp lesson.”

According to my bias, Tyrion is in a way Aerys the Third, and Tywin is rattled when he says so.

[Maia]

But these two specific cases mean that these cannot be used as powerful evidences in favor of this particular theory, which by the way has a significant difference from R+L=J. Unlike Jon's parentage, the parentage of Tyrion was never questioned in the series.

Actually, Tyrion's parentage is questioned during his very first appearance in the series, i.e. " My mother died birthing me, and he's (Tywin) never been sure". Of course, Tyrion attributes it to his dwarfism, but he tends to blame his dwarfism for everything and isn't always right about the (main) causes of his misfortunes.

"The Dragon has three heads" does not sound like a prophecy in the first place.

According to Aemon, it is part of the Promised Prince prophecy. As we have never heard it in it's entirety, there is no real room for disagreement. And as far as we know, "his is a song of ice and fire" isn't part of the prophecy, just a poetic expression of Rhaegar's, yet a lot of people seem to really latch onto it in order to promote Jon's super-specialness of being the one true chosen one in an ensemble series..

So you are 100% sure that Jon Roxton, a minor noble from the Reach, had Targaryen blood because he was determined to try to mount a dragon. Just like Gormon Massey and Steffon Darklyn who were killed while trying to mount dragons.

I imagine that they had been emboldened by success of the dragonseeds, some of whom appeared to be of doubtful ancestry. And I think that the latter 2 likely did have a drop of Targaryen/Velaryon blood. Jorah, OTOH could have put his hopes in Dany's unique relationship to all 3 dragons and thought that perhaps she could make them accept whoever. If he was serious about the "dragonrider" part, that is, rather than just desperate to be seen as an acceptable prospect for a husband.

Because Tywin does not even want to think about Tytos. The World Book proved that. It is even possible that Tywin had Tytos poisoned. It runs in the family. Tywin bit the finger of his grandfather who was most probably a kinslayer. That means he inherited the trade from him. Tytos' heart gave out, similar to the man Arya killed in her first mission.

Tywin expressly mentioned Tytos - "I have been made to suffer my father's follies", etc. And I dare say that accusations against Gerald have been as scurrilous as those against his wife Lady Webber in her "Red Widow" days. In fact, this very marriage could have given ammunition to his accusers. I mean, it isn't like we haven't seen numerous examples of people being falsely accused of and wrongly believed culpable of various heinous things during the series itself! Also, if Tywin had been one for patricide, Tytos would have died during the buildup to Rains of Castamere, when he was actively putting House Lannister in acute danger. A very fat man of around 50 getting a heart attack is perfectly natural, IMHO.

He was a threat to him because he could have disinherited him easily, especially as Tywin growing darker every moment and perhaps Gerion was becoming his favourite son.

Disinheriting a son is never easy, leave alone one who is Hand of the King! Nor did Tywin do anything "darker" after Tarbecks and Reynes until the Sack. As to Gerion - did you read the full version of "History of the Westerlands" on GRRM's site? Yes, it may not be fully canon, but according to it, Gerion hadn't been anymore complimentary of Tytos as a ruler than the rest of his siblings. Not to mention that he had been only 11 or so at the time of Tytos's death and the idea of him intending to disinherit all 3(!) of his elder sons is even more preposterous, if it were possible, than him trying to get rid of just Tywin.

Tyrion himself is Lannister of that there can be no doubt. The reason he is a dwarf is Lannister inbreeding.

That is not how inbreeding works. As far as we know, neither Lannisters, nor the other families that Tyrion is (allegedly) descended from have ever produced dwarfs. Whereas Targaryens have produced "twisted" children and stillbirths pretty regularly. In what way twisted and whether any of them had been similar to Tyrion we don't really know at this point. Also, none of Tyrion's official ancestors in 3 generations could have provided the black hair that he has streaks of or a black eye. Aerys's double grandmother Betha Blackwood could have supplied those, however, according to the ever-helpful world-book. As to Jaime and Cersei, both the timing and Aerys's reaction (of acute jealousy) to their birth make it all but impossible for them to be Aerys's.

[Gerg Sknab]

Maia, as noted in my post we do not know Tyrion's ggp's outside of Lannister and Webber however we know at least from illustrations and descriptions Webber is dark auburn, Marbrand is red and Prester is brown. I think we GRRM to offer up additional info on lineage before there is a suggestion black hair is not somewhere in genes.

Inbreeding works because of genetic anomolies and deficiencies who is to say Lannister deficiencies aren't quick to show.

Yes, if you take a look at TWoIaF you'll note many of the Targaryen "twisted" children were caused by outside forces not necessarily because Targaryen genes were found wanting.

There is nothing to suggest Aerys isn't Cersei and Jamie's father as a matter of fact

"Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor would she be the last" would greatly suggest otherwise.

[Lord Varys]

Gormon Massey and Steffon Darklyn actually could have Targaryen ancestors from before the Conquest (the Darklyns controlling the biggest harbour on the east coast could have led to a Targaryen marriage, and the Masseys were strangely close to the Targaryens before the Conquest besides being technically subjects of Storm's End, indicating a possible blood relation - not to mention that Justin Massey has pale hair).

Jon Roxton may simply believe he can mount a dragon because those baseborn traitors Ulf and Hugh could. Considering that neither had his family tree ready it may be that their success led some people to falsely believe everybody could mount a dragon - and Roxton hadn't been on Dragonstone nor did he necessarily hear the stories about those who died there trying to mount a dragon.

Tyrion's parentage is questioned twice in AGoT actually, first during the talk with Jon Maia has referred to, then again when Tyrion first encounters Tywin in the inn.

Mithras' willingness to believe rumours he has no proof enables us to imagine him as guy who would in-universe believe that Joffrey was a great king, that Sansa fled KL in the shape of winged wolf, and that Tyrion murdered Robert, Joffrey, and Tywin as depicted in 'The Bloody Hand'. And of course, he would most likely die defending the truth that Patches fathered Shireen ;-).

There is no hint that Aerys was near Joanna when Jaime/Cersei were conceived, but there is a pretty strong that he was there when Tyrion may have been conceived.