A+J=T v. 4

[Gerg Sknab]

C'mon Varys in what universe is a woman going to let a man get anywhere near her after a comment such as Aerys noting of giving suck to her twins had "ruined your breasts, which were so high and proud." This at the great Tourney where you and your ilk feel Aerys impregnanted her.

I'll stick with my A+J=C+J as proved by C+J=J+M+T

[Chinoiserie]

C'mon Varys in what universe is a woman going to let a man get anywhere near her after a comment such as Aerys noting of giving suck to her twins had "ruined your breasts, which were so high and proud." This at the great Tourney where you and your ilk feel Aerys impregnanted her.

I'll stick with my A+J=C+J as proved by C+J=J+M+T

What are your feeling of the possibility of Joanna being raped then?

[Lord Varys]

- Nobody may have asked Tywin. Aerys had had his way with Joanna before. He was the king, and he had elder rights.

- Aerys may have called Joanna into his chambers afterwards and may have raped her there.

- Aerys may have called Joanna into his chambers afterwards and may have apologized for his rude comment and they may have sex consensually.

- Joanna may have gone to Aerys voluntarily and had sex with him to convince him to not accept Tywin's resignation the next (Tywin may have told Joanna that he intended to resign).

Any questions?

[Gerg Sknab]

- Nobody may have asked Tywin. Aerys had had his way with Joanna before. He was the king, and he had elder rights.

- Aerys may have called Joanna into his chambers afterwards and may have raped her there.

- Aerys may have called Joanna into his chambers afterwards and may have apologized for his rude comment and they may have sex consensually.

- Joanna may have gone to Aerys voluntarily and had sex with him to convince him to not accept Tywin's resignation the next (Tywin may have told Joanna that he intended to resign).

Any questions?

Grasping at straws...There is nothing in text anywhere the would suggest any of the above.

[Lord Varys]

It doesn't need to be. It is theory, if it had been confirmed yet we wouldn't have this confirmation. But it is a very likely theory. Why the hell do you think all those clues are there? Just to fill pages? The story does not need any talk about Aerys or Joanna if this is not important.

[Gerg Sknab]

It doesn't need to be. It is theory, if it had been confirmed yet we wouldn't have this confirmation. But it is a very likely theory. Why the hell do you think all those clues are there? Just to fill pages? The story does not need any talk about Aerys or Joanna if this is not important.

Not everything is a clue, not everything need have ulterior motive....If all is such, I would suggest the abiter in clues is, paraphrasing here, Aunt Genna to Jamie when Jamie feels she is complmenting him on his being like his father.... "Tyrion is Tywin son."

[Maia]

I'll stick with my A+J=C+J as proved by C+J=J+M+T

Except that the twins were born 3 or so years after Joanna's dismissal from court and Aerys reacted to their birth with ballistic jealousy. IMHO, these circumstances combined make the chances of the twins being royal bastards almost nil. "Almost" because we have no absolute proof that Joanna didn't make one of her "rare" visits to KL in time for their conception. OTOH, in Tyrion's case, method, motive and opportunity are all there in the open now that we have the world-book.

[Gerg Sknab]

Except that the twins were born 3 or so years after Joanna's dismissal from court and Aerys reacted to their birth with ballistic jealousy. IMHO, these circumstances combined make the chances of the twins being royal bastards almost nil. "Almost" because we have no absolute proof that Joanna didn't make one of her "rare" visits to KL in time for their conception. OTOH, in Tyrion's case, method, motive and opportunity are all there in the open now that we have the world-book.

Funny, I would suggest that AFFC all but confirms my take. Read the Cersei chapters only, you can see and feel her megalomania, conceit and suspicion growing as she becomes more and more like her father.

[Mithras]

It doesn't need to be. It is theory, if it had been confirmed yet we wouldn't have this confirmation. But it is a very likely theory. Why the hell do you think all those clues are there? Just to fill pages? The story does not need any talk about Aerys or Joanna if this is not important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO0pcWxcROI&feature=youtu.be&t=34s

[Stonehearted Snake]

- Nobody may have asked Tywin. Aerys had had his way with Joanna before. He was the king, and he had elder rights.

- Aerys may have called Joanna into his chambers afterwards and may have raped her there.

- Aerys may have called Joanna into his chambers afterwards and may have apologized for his rude comment and they may have sex consensually.

- Joanna may have gone to Aerys voluntarily and had sex with him to convince him to not accept Tywin's resignation the next (Tywin may have told Joanna that he intended to resign).

Any questions?

Doesn't Aerys complain somewhere about the loss of the right to first night and implies he wants it reinstated? I could be making this up as I can't remember where it was at all.

[Lord Varys]

Cersei has actually no similarities with Aerys whatsoever. She isn't mad, she isn't paranoid without a reason, and there are no hints that she is suffering from an illness that gradually worsens. Cersei is power-hungry and not very bright, and obsessed with protecting her children and showing her greatness to the world. Aerys II was a completely different case.

When Cersei burned the Tower of the Hand this was a political statement - she was showing off that she had defeated/survived all the Hands that had played with her fate her whole life - but she isn't obsessed with fire nor is Wisdom/Lord Hallyne playing any role right now (in fact, it seems as if George has forgotten that he exists).

Not to mention that Lady Genna has actually no clue about Tyrion's true heritage. After all, nothing suggests she was present at the anniversary tourney, nor do we have to believe that either Tywin or Joanna would tell her about Joanna's little orgies with His Grace... In fact, the fact that Tywin did not speak to Genna for a year after she came up with this great remark that Tyrion was Tywin's son is a pretty big hint that Tywin felt that this was not the case - but had no intention to admit it.

Tywin had no need to raise Tyrion as a Lannister. Nobody could him force to do it. He could have claimed Joanna had admitted to him on her death bed that he wasn't hers and then he could have executed some peasant for cuckolding him, and then he could have thrown the child to the dogs (or at least abandon it).

[Gibzit]

- Nobody may have asked Tywin. Aerys had had his way with Joanna before. He was the king, and he had elder rights.

- Aerys may have called Joanna into his chambers afterwards and may have raped her there.

- Aerys may have called Joanna into his chambers afterwards and may have apologized for his rude comment and they may have sex consensually.

- Joanna may have gone to Aerys voluntarily and had sex with him to convince him to not accept Tywin's resignation the next (Tywin may have told Joanna that he intended to resign).

Any questions?

-King's rights do not include fucking a highborn woman that was married for half a decade.

-If this happend, why not tell Tywin?

-"I'm sorry I humilated you infront of the entire court can we bang now?"

-If Tywin wanted to resign, what intrest would Joanna have to stop him from doing that?

[Lord Varys]

SS,

that was during the wedding. And may have actually be a pretty big joke as Aerys had had Joanna first a long time ago. There was no real need to reinstate the First Night in Joanna's case...

Gibzit,

- Kings can do whatever the hell they want to do. Aerys ripped out the tongue of Tywin's captain of guards - Tywin did nothing. Conclusion: Aerys could do whatever the hell he wanted to do to Joanna.

- Joanna may have told him. Tywin would have kept his mouth shut, suffered the humiliation, and risen the king's bastard as his own son. He may not even have dared to kill the child as Aerys could have decided to punish/execute him for that crime.

- More or less that. Aerys could be charming, and Joanna must have had a thing for him, or else there wouldn't have been an affair between these two, no? Also: We are talking about the king here. You do not reject the king if he is apologizing. He is the king.

- Joanna may have been the one who actually made Tywin Hand. Perhaps she was the more ambitious one of the two (that is a scenario in which Joanna is more proactive that both Aerys and Tywin)? She had an affair with Aerys before he ascended the throne and then again shortly after he became king - exactly when Aerys appointed his new Hand. Joanna's original intention may have been to acquire power and influence through both Tywin - her husband - and Aerys - her lover. Those dreams would have ended after Rhaella banished her from court. In 272 AC Joanna may have grown accustomed to rule Casterly Rock pretty much on her own, and may have had little interest that Tywin return there. Remember, Tywin was in love with Joanna very much - nobody ever said that she was enamoured with him. And we also know that Joanna 'ruled Lord Tywin' - which is an interesting if we connect it with the fact that the good Lord Tywin got his wife only pregnant once before Tyrion - and then only three years after his marriage. Something seems to suggest that the powerful and mighty Lord Tywin wasn't allowed to come all that often in his lady wife...

[Gibzit]

SS,

that was during the wedding. And may have actually be a pretty big joke as Aerys had had Joanna first a long time ago. There was no real need to reinstate the First Night in Joanna's case...

Gibzit,

- Kings can do whatever the hell they want to do. Aerys ripped out the tongue of Tywin's captain of guards - Tywin did nothing. Conclusion: Aerys could do whatever the hell he wanted to do to Joanna.

- Joanna may have told him. Tywin would have kept his mouth shut, suffered the humiliation, and risen the king's bastard as his own son. He may not even have dared to kill the child as Aerys could have decided to punish/execute him for that crime.

Ilyn Payne probably isn't as important to Tywin as his beloved wife, one could argue that ripping out Ilyn's tounge actually helped Tywin because ruling without anyone knowing is better than having Aerys try to stop your influence.

I remind you that Tywin had the Grand Maester in his pocket, he could give Joanna moon tea anytime he wanted without Aerys ever hearing about it, this was before Varys was hired if I remember correctly.

[Lord Varys]

Moon tea seems to have dangerous effects if it is used to terminate a pregnancy if Lysa is any indication. And we should assume that Tywin actually wanted to impregnate Joanna when he had the chance to have sex with her. Tywin wouldn't have need of Pycelle for that, by the way. The man has a maester of his own. And Pycelle most likely wasn't that deep in Tywin's pocket ten years before the Rebellion.

[Mithras]

Cersei has actually no similarities with Aerys whatsoever ... *snipped for absurdity*

“Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”

“Now you sound like Aerys.”

[Mithras]

Gibzit,

- Kings can do whatever the hell they want to do. Aerys ripped out the tongue of Tywin's captain of guards - Tywin did nothing. Conclusion: Aerys could do whatever the hell he wanted to do to Joanna.

- Joanna may have told him. Tywin would have kept his mouth shut, suffered the humiliation, and risen the king's bastard as his own son. He may not even have dared to kill the child as Aerys could have decided to punish/execute him for that crime.

- More or less that. Aerys could be charming, and Joanna must have had a thing for him, or else there wouldn't have been an affair between these two, no? Also: We are talking about the king here. You do not reject the king if he is apologizing. He is the king.

- Joanna may have been the one who actually made Tywin Hand. Perhaps she was the more ambitious one of the two (that is a scenario in which Joanna is more proactive that both Aerys and Tywin)? She had an affair with Aerys before he ascended the throne and then again shortly after he became king - exactly when Aerys appointed his new Hand. Joanna's original intention may have been to acquire power and influence through both Tywin - her husband - and Aerys - her lover. Those dreams would have ended after Rhaella banished her from court. In 272 AC Joanna may have grown accustomed to rule Casterly Rock pretty much on her own, and may have had little interest that Tywin return there. Remember, Tywin was in love with Joanna very much - nobody ever said that she was enamoured with him. And we also know that Joanna 'ruled Lord Tywin' - which is an interesting if we connect it with the fact that the good Lord Tywin got his wife only pregnant once before Tyrion - and then only three years after his marriage. Something seems to suggest that the powerful and mighty Lord Tywin wasn't allowed to come all that often in his lady wife...

That is ridiculous. We have Lyonel Baratheon declaring independence after a marriage arrangement was broken. And Tywin's character is right from the beginning shaped to suffer no insult and retaliate in the harshest possible way.

To make this theory work, you are destroying all the characterization we get about the characters involved. This is not how theories work. Sorry.

[bent branch]

I think it is not useful to focus on whether Rhaegar was correct in his beliefs about AA/PTWP. IMO, it is more important to try to understand why Rhaegar believed what he did. Understanding why Rhaegar had his beliefs is the best way for us to try to put together a prophecy we haven't really seen. Here is a link to one of the first posts I made on this forum:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61739-issue-with-the-three-heads-of-the-dragon/page-4

My post is #67. Since that time I have determined that the only Essosi individual who makes reference to the 3HotD is Illyrio. To me, this strongly suggests that the 3HotD is a prophecy that came much later than AA, since it is almost exclusively referred to by Westerosi. The question is, does this prophecy come from before or after the establishment of the Targaryen dynasty. I know some people believe this part of the prophecy comes from the woods witch, but I believe it came from Daenys the Dreamer's Signs and Portents. I feel confident that we will know for sure once we learn what it is that Marwyn knows from the three lost pages of Signs and Portents he found.

While I am confident that A+J=T is true and think it is far more likely that Aegon is Rhaegar's son than not, I am not sure how all of this goes together without knowing more about the prophecies. I think it is entirely possible either Tyrion or Aegon is the third head at this point with the know information.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

Aerys was Tywin's king. Don't you understand that he wasn't his equal or his peer. Withholding something from your king is treason. How the hell do you think Aegon IV got all his mistresses and lovers? Because noble fathers and husbands were unwilling to play the pimp in exchange for royal favours?

And if I take you as an example then there are no rules to theory-building, no?

Jaime makes the connection, and Cersei burns one structure in the the Red Keep. A structure she has grown to loath and hate. Where is Cersei's erratic(mad behaviour? Where is her mad laughter, her sudden mood swings, her twists of rage and weeping? Where is her obsession with (dragon) fire? Where is her sexual arousal when she sees and commands people to be burned? Where is unkempt hair, where are her long nails?

She is paranoid and afraid, and not very rational in her suspicions and suffers obviously from delusions of political grandeur, but that is not a problem with her mental health - rather with the fact that she has been through much and was never properly trained to rule herself.

[Mithras]

Mithras,

Aerys was Tywin's king. Don't you understand that he wasn't his equal or his peer. Withholding something from your king is treason. How the hell do you think Aegon IV got all his mistresses and lovers? Because noble fathers and husbands were unwilling to play the pimp in exchange for royal favours?

And if I take you as an example then there are no rules to theory-building, no?

Jaime makes the connection, and Cersei burns one structure in the the Red Keep. A structure she has grown to loath and hate. Where is Cersei's erratic(mad behaviour? Where is her mad laughter, her sudden mood swings, her twists of rage and weeping? Where is her obsession with (dragon) fire? Where is her sexual arousal when she sees and commands people to be burned? Where is unkempt hair, where are her long nails?

She is paranoid and afraid, and not very rational in her suspicions and suffers obviously from delusions of political grandeur, but that is not a problem with her mental health - rather with the fact that she has been through much and was never properly trained to rule herself.

So Egg was not Lyonel's king?