Sansa's Empowerment Arc & The Future

[Ser Wun Wun]

I pretty much agree with you OP. Sansa is seen consoling Theon in the preview for next week, telling him they have friends who can help. So it seems as though Sansa will be the one actively organizing the escape in the show, whereas Theon did it in the books.

She's also seen crying in the preview, so obviously Ramsay is not done tormenting her. They are outside, and she's looking up at something, my guess is he either does something horrible to Theon, or he flayed some Winterfell staff, like that old lady who told Sansa the "North Remembers".

I'm not certain if she will end this season in the company of Stannis, however. Theon likely will, but not sure about Sansa. Brienne could take her away from him, that wouldn't surprise me. Or she could end up being right back with LF again, that way she is essentially in the same situation in the beginning of S6 as she is in the beginning of TWOW, under LF's power. Not a fan of that last scenario at all, but I can't discount the writers doing something that shitty to her.

[Theda Baratheon]

Any story line where a woman chooses to go into a situation where she will be raped by the family that murdered hers in order to empower herself, is a storyline born from the minds of mysoginistic sexists.

Yep. fuck this scene, fuck who wrote it, fuck who directed it, fuck everything about it. They have used rape TIME AND TIME again for a myriad problematic reasons. WHEN WILL IT END?

[Jerpp]

Where was the outrage when Theon has his cock chopped off? What happened to Theon is 1000x worse than what happened to Sansa.

Sansa has the opportunity to get over a traumatic event. One that she knew was coming, mind you, and one she agreed to participate in as a necessary evil.

Theon has his entire "man-ness" and identity taken from him, with no opportunity to ever get it back.

And this is Ramsay "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" Bolton we are talking about here. What did you bloody think was going to happen?

This kind of marital rape was implied when the agreement was made. It's terrible, but there aren't many Peter Dinklages in a medieval society, and Ramsay is the worst of the worst.

Remember "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother"?

Still, after having some of it's best episodes ever in season 4, the show has gone quickly downhill since the Brienne vs the Hound fight.

Atleast they didn't show the Sand Snakes killing Bronn.

[Valetudo]

Where was the outrage when Theon has his cock chopped off? What happened to Theon is 1000x worse than what happened to Sansa.

Sansa has the opportunity to get over a traumatic event. One that she knew was coming, mind you, and one she agreed to participate in as a necessary evil.

Theon has his entire "man-ness" and identity taken from him, with no opportunity to ever get it back.

And this is Ramsay "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" Bolton we are talking about here. What did you bloody think was going to happen?

This kind of marital rape was implied when the agreement was made. It's terrible, but there aren't many Peter Dinklages in a medieval society, and Ramsay is the worst of the worst.

Remember "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother"?

After having some of it's best episodes ever in season 4, the show has gone quickly downhill since the Brienne vs the Hound fight.

You must be pretty new on the forums, or maybe you haven't been paying attention!

The outrage was there for Theon's torture, and also for Gendry's leeches scene.

This isn't about raping Sansa being believable or not. It's about putting a character in a specific situation in order for her to be raped. Like it happened with Gendry or Tommen.If you read the forums, you'll see a lot of negativity about thes events too.

Of course, the Sansa scene brings more outrage because more people care about her.

[Pies are coming]

Yeah, let's go on a suicide mission, marrying a psycho and son to the guy who killed my brother .... because REVENGE!!!

That's the kind of trope that is totally unbelievable. I would understand if LF would have told her some plan that permitted her to avenge herself without dying for it, but he didn't tell her anything, just AVENGE YOUR FAMILY. So badass!

And why would he need to tell her what to do? There is a skull beneath that fair skin and a brain inside. Sansa Stark decided to let her brain go on strike and just coast along throughout the season.

However we know in the books that she is becoming a player and that their is a major plot in the vale. Her character on the show however is now Jeyne.

Do we know that? Last we read, we don't even know if she realizes the implications of her idea.

I don't think Sansa will be "empowered". If she was to become an active protagonist, she would have done it already. Most likely, she mimics Jeyne, finds a way out of Winterfell and arrives as a gift to Stannis camp, so he's able to use her as his pawn.

Too bad. Sansa as a mixture of Manderly and Dustin would have made a great storyline. But that ship has sailed, and so has Lord Manderly.

[Jerpp]

I have been reading the forums for a long time [though not posting much].

There was no world wide internet meltdown outrage for Theon's torture.

There is a simple reason for this. Rape is a bigger deal to feminists than anything else. Bigger than torture, murder, or [especially?] male castration.

By the way I completely agree that Sansa's story makes no sense at all in the show. LF is being made into a fool on the show, and his plan makes no sense logically.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Hasn't Sansa been sent to "the dark side" already? Isn't that what the crazy raven dress and necklace from the end of season 4 was about? Or was that just some heavy foreshadowing? Is she going to be donning some kind of uberblack death metal duds in order to key us into this newest dark turn?

I think you missed my point. This is what happens when you let contemporary real world passions taint what people say about a fictitious world based on a world that no longer exists. I don't think anyone posting on this forum or anywhere else would actually believe that a modern day woman needs to be raped to be empowered or transformed. I think that real world issues need to be set aside and keep this story in the context/setting is belongs in.

I did not suggest that Sansa has not suffered. I am also certainly not talking about her going for an emo/dark apparel. While in the Vale (books) you see Sansa begin to transform, and in the show you see sort of the same thing. I was pointing out that this scene could be a catalyst that pushes Sansa into a new territory that defines her character. I have no idea where they are taking Sansa, and we have no idea where Martin is taking Sansa. I suggested that this scene changes her from an innocent, sweet child into something more ruthless and harsh (say Dany-ish). Before she reaches Winterfell (show) Sansa obviously shows outwards signs of becoming more in-tune with the game. This specific event, I think and argued, will crush any child innocence she had and she will develop down a different path.

Instead of saying that the rape empowered her, I am suggesting that the tragedy will cause her to become more Cersei/Dany-ish and less of her former self. I am not even arguing that it is a good thing; I am simply pointing out where Sansa's character seems to be heading in the show. Some have already claimed they see a tinge of LS in Sansa now, perhaps.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

maybe

*shock horror*

just maybe

she doesn't get empowered!

That's not actually possible. According to Cogman, this is a part of Sansa's empowering storyline, and how she'll end up the great player.

[Arplus Elisjay]

She's also seen crying in the preview, so obviously Ramsay is not done tormenting her. They are outside, and she's looking up at something, my guess is he either does something horrible to Theon, or he flayed some Winterfell staff, like that old lady who told Sansa the "North Remembers".

Spot on. That was my first thought as well - the angle she's looking up at is the perfect angle to view somebody hanging or flayed on display, and the nameless woman ally is the perfect person to have in that role. Dramatically, it sets the stage for Brienne/Theon/Sansa heroics.

[Arplus Elisjay]

That's not actually possible. According to Cogman, this is a part of Sansa's empowering storyline, and how she'll end up the great player.

Good, I hope it plays out that way. I'm not looking for a show that has no thematic structure to it. Yeah, I get it, we need the occasional Red Wedding to keep us on our toes, but we ALSO need meaningful character arcs, and goddamit we occasionally need a little touch of justice, especially for the Starks. But hey, I'm one of those people who thought the last book should have been called A Time for Wolves.

[Valetudo]

And why would he need to tell her what to do? There is a skull beneath that fair skin and a brain inside. Sansa Stark decided to let her brain go on strike and just coast along throughout the season.

Do we know that? Last we read, we don't even know if she realizes the implications of her idea.

Because going in without a plan doesn't make sense.

It's like if I told you you were going to marry Ben Laden and bring you to his house and left you there. Why would you be OK with that? If I told you that I got a plan for you to kill him and that I've already planned your escape, it can be believable. But without any explanation, it's not.

Sansa may have a brain, but the situation she's willingly putting herself into has no foreseeable happy ending for her. How is she supposed to find a way to avenge herself and escape being all by herself in "enemy territory"?

Of course, the show is now fixing this by adding external help (Brienne, the old lady), but she couldn't have counted on it when she decided to go there.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

I have been reading the forums for a long time [though not posting much].

There was no world wide internet meltdown outrage for Theon's torture.

There is a simple reason for this. Rape is a bigger deal to feminists than anything else. Bigger than torture, murder, or [especially?] male castration.

By the way I completely agree that Sansa's story makes no sense at all in the show. LF is being made into a fool on the show, and his plan makes no sense logically.

Theon was castrated in the books though, so I'm not sure that's a fair analogy.

[Pashernate Reader]

Yep. fuck this scene, fuck who wrote it, fuck who directed it, fuck everything about it. They have used rape TIME AND TIME again for a myriad problematic reasons. WHEN WILL IT END?

I'm so sick of people talking about rape empowering female characters, or rapowerment, as I like to call it.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

Good, I hope it plays out that way. I'm not looking for a show that has no thematic structure to it. Yeah, I get it, we need the occasional Red Wedding to keep us on our toes, but we ALSO need meaningful character arcs, and goddamit we occasionally need a little touch of justice, especially for the Starks. But hey, I'm one of those people who thought the last book should have been called A Time for Wolves.

That's probably where a lot of the frustration is coming from. As great as the series is, we need a victory at some point.

[MordredDayne]

I think you missed my point. This is what happens when you let contemporary real world passions taint what people say about a fictitious world based on a world that no longer exists. I don't think anyone posting on this forum or anywhere else would actually believe that a modern day woman needs to be raped to be empowered or transformed. I think that real world issues need to be set aside and keep this story in the context/setting is belongs in.

I did not suggest that Sansa has not suffered. I am also certainly not talking about her going for an emo/dark apparel. While in the Vale (books) you see Sansa begin to transform, and in the show you see sort of the same thing. I was pointing out that this scene could be a catalyst that pushes Sansa into a new territory that defines her character. I have no idea where they are taking Sansa, and we have no idea where Martin is taking Sansa. I suggested that this scene changes her from an innocent, sweet child into something more ruthless and harsh (say Dany-ish). Before she reaches Winterfell (show) Sansa obviously shows outwards signs of becoming more in-tune with the game. This specific event, I think and argued, will crush any child innocence she had and she will develop down a different path.

Instead of saying that the rape empowered her, I am suggesting that the tragedy will cause her to become more Cersei/Dany-ish and less of her former self. I am not even arguing that it is a good thing; I am simply pointing out where Sansa's character seems to be heading in the show. Some have already claimed they see a tinge of LS in Sansa now, perhaps.

I think this is the second time you have suggested that I have missed your point over a disagreement we've had concerning the show. Has it occurred to you that I grasped your point just fine and simply disagree with it? Maybe you're just trying to be polite, but honestly it feels kind of patronizing. I'll fully admit that I may just be overreacting to this.

As far as setting aside real world issues and keeping this story in the context setting it belongs in, how are we supposed to do that when it's obvious that D&D are commenting on very real and modern cultural phenomena in other storylines? Case in point: the whole Loras trial/Faith Militant angle. This is a change from the books, where homosexuality is not a concern at all of the FM to something that will resonate with modern viewers who have seen The Islamic States' brand of religious fascism all over the TV. Do you really think that the writers aren't wanting the audience to draw these kinds of parallels? If not, then why change it? If it's to make it more dramatic, it's only more dramatic because of the investment our modern audience has with this type of story. I don't think GRRM or the showrunners are intending to create a full blown allegory, but they're not making this show in a vacuum. They are modern people making a television show for a modern audience. They're not making a documentary about what life was like in the dark or middle ages. I think it's perfectly valid to view this show, and any other type of show, be it fantasy, sci-fi, horror, whatever, through the lens of the world in which we actually live. That's a fairly standard aspect of criticism, so I'm not sure why you feel it's inappropriate in this case. It may not be your thing, you may disagree with some of the conclusions that people derive from it, but it's not an invalid way of looking at the show that hinders people's ability to understand it.

As far as where they're going with Sansa, I have no idea. I think your interpretation is as valid as a lot of the others I've heard. What I was addressing with my (admittedly snarky) comment was that it seemed odd for them to give Sansa all of these new dark character cues at the end of the last season, then have them revert somewhat over the course of the season, only to come back again after her rape. It just seems like inconsistent characterization to me.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

Good, I hope it plays out that way. I'm not looking for a show that has no thematic structure to it. Yeah, I get it, we need the occasional Red Wedding to keep us on our toes, but we ALSO need meaningful character arcs, and goddamit we occasionally need a little touch of justice, especially for the Starks. But hey, I'm one of those people who thought the last book should have been called A Time for Wolves.

That's probably where a lot of the frustration is coming from. As great as the series is, we need a victory at some point.

[Pashernate Reader]

I think you missed my point. This is what happens when you let contemporary real world passions taint what people say about a fictitious world based on a world that no longer exists. I don't think anyone posting on this forum or anywhere else would actually believe that a modern day woman needs to be raped to be empowered or transformed. I think that real world issues need to be set aside and keep this story in the context/setting is belongs in.

So you're saying only Westerosi women "need to be raped in order to be empowered or transformed."

Uhuh.

[Pies are coming]

Because going in without a plan doesn't make sense.

It's like if I told you you were going to marry Ben Laden and bring you to his house and left you there. Why would you be OK with that? If I told you that I got a plan for you to kill him and that I've already planned your escape, it can be believable. But without any explanation, it's not.

Sansa may have a brain, but the situation she's willingly putting herself into has no foreseeable happy ending for her. How is she supposed to find a way to avenge herself and escape being all by herself in "enemy territory"?

Of course, the show is now fixing this by adding external help (Brienne, the old lady), but she couldn't have counted on it when she decided to go there.

Well, since I'm a guy, I think me marrying Bin Laden would be enough to get him removed from command of Al-Qaida or any other islamic terrorist group :P

That said, I'm not a main character in a fictional world. Give me Bumblebee as a car and throw me into a war of giant alien robots and I'll end up dead within hours instead of banging Megan Fox. Things are expected of fictional characters that simply do not easily translate to real world people.

Sansa's options were: develop some sort of relationship with her husband to be (which is a no-brainer) and try to set him against Fat Walda. Which may fail (which is the reason why, should I be asked to marry the head of a terrorist organization, I'll just run the other way as fast as I can), but I'd rather see a story about that failure than a story about a main character drifting along and seemingly shocked that she jumped into a shark's mouth and got devoured.

[Bastard of Balmora]

I have been reading the forums for a long time [though not posting much].

There was no world wide internet meltdown outrage for Theon's torture.

There is a simple reason for this. Rape is a bigger deal to feminists than anything else. Bigger than torture, murder, or [especially?] male castration.

By the way I completely agree that Sansa's story makes no sense at all in the show. LF is being made into a fool on the show, and his plan makes no sense logically.

That's because there's a disgusting double-standard that pervades a minority of the viewers (and human population in general) yet they stamp their feet the loudest so we think it's bigger than it is. These are the utterly hopeless types who only see gender and use words like "mansplaining". There's no ground to be made with them, they just want everything one-way.

http://karmajello.com/postcont/2012/09/you-want-it-one-way-marlo-the-wire.jpg

So you're saying only Westerosi women "need to be raped in order to be empowered or transformed."

Uhuh.

No one is saying that, you're just insane.

[Pashernate Reader]

No one is saying that, you're just insane.

Bwahaha :lol: