SerJeremiahLouistark Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I agree that Loras is defined by his homosexuality and that is a larger problem with the series, but the assertion about Sansa sounds to me like emotions clouding one's thoughts. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that will happen, I'm just saying it could because there is precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetudo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 a show dedicated to respecting women and the sanctity of life...or am i confused :smoking: I never talked about"respecting women or the sanctity of life". I'm not a feminist, and am no more outraged by rape than by murder or torture. Is it so hard to understand that people may dislike this story because the story doesn't make sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4W13Y Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I never talked about"respecting women or the sanctity of life". I'm not a feminist, and am no more outraged by rape than by murder or torture. Is it so hard to understand that people may dislike this story because the story doesn't make sense! Nope, if you hate the story it's because you don't like the fact Sansa was raped (but anyone else being raped and tortured is fair game). You can't hate it because it defies logic, character consistency, plot continuity etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 No, it didn't. They had to make a convoluted crazy absurd storyline full of plot holes just so they could get Sansa in place to be raped by Ramsay. i just don't see it that way...sorry... i kinda like that now all (except rickon, i suppose) of old ned's kids that are left are finally moving into maturity and the ability to direct their own lives vs. being directed...this has been a highly motivating factor to bran and arya...now it seems jon and sansa are catching up remember my words as ever on this board are just the opinions of this one old asshole...feel free to disagree :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pies are coming Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Or she had the option, like you chose in the example, to refuse to marry Ramsey and stay in the Vale. But no, we have to believe it's OK for her to chose the unbelievable option, because it will make "more interesting" TV. If you're OK with that kind of reasoning, fine. But that's certainly not what I would call a good show, like Transformers is not what I call a good movie. Remember, this show was supposed to be TLotR meets the Sopranos, not the Transformers! Ok, then Frodo had the option to leave the Shire (or, say, Rivendell once he knew the destination was Mordor) or stay and chose to leave. But no, we have to believe it's OK for him to choose the unbelievable option, because it will make "more interesting" books. Why can't she? Why does being raped by Ramsey now have to define her? That seems so...foolish to suggest, that Sansa now is going to be defined as Ramsey's toy and can no longer exact revenge simply because she was a victim here.It doesn't define her. It defines her relationship with Ramsay. Now, she will not be able to influence Ramsay in any way because to him, she's just another toy. Had she acted as enjoying Theon's humiliation, bitten him, taken off her clothes quickly and without hesitation and had sex with him instead of taking long enough for him to rape her, she might have tried to influence and help him in killing Fat Walda, thus driving a wedge between the Boltons, taking revenge on a Frey and setting up the stage for an easier time on vengeance on the Boltons (as in, one of them ends up killing the other). Do you think she can do that now? What do you think will happen the morning after, when Sansa wakes up wishing to cry and Ramsay wakes up with a hard on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I must have missed the episode where Jon and Bran were raped. wow...you are single minded... however to respond...Bran was thrown from a window to his probable death...true he lived but crippled and pretty well fucked if you ask me... ... and i expect Jon to continue to get metaphorically fucked right up until the red woman tries to burn him alive or something else forces him to warg... rape is horrible, i agree, but so are the myriad of shit storms that happen in the show and on the pages of the books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetudo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Ok, then Frodo had the option to leave the Shire (or, say, Rivendell once he knew the destination was Mordor) or stay and chose to leave. But no, we have to believe it's OK for him to choose the unbelievable option, because it will make "more interesting" books. It doesn't define her. It defines her relationship with Ramsay. Now, she will not be able to influence Ramsay in any way because to him, she's just another toy. Had she acted as enjoying Theon's humiliation, bitten him, taken off her clothes quickly and without hesitation and had sex with him instead of taking long enough for him to rape her, she might have tried to influence and help him in killing Fat Walda, thus driving a wedge between the Boltons, taking revenge on a Frey and setting up the stage for an easier time on vengeance on the Boltons (as in, one of them ends up killing the other). Do you think she can do that now? What do you think will happen the morning after, when Sansa wakes up wishing to cry and Ramsay wakes up with a hard on?Are you really compairing Sansa's choice to Frodo's? WOW Frodo needed to go to Mordor to prevent the end of the world. It was a suicide mission and he was aware of that, but he had to choose this path in order to, you know, save every fucking living creature in the planet. Sansa, on the other hand, gains nothing by choosing this path.Worse, had she chose to wait, she would have been in a better position to retake Winterfell after Roose's and Stannis battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 i just don't see it that way...sorry... i kinda like that now all (except rickon, i suppose) of old ned's kids that are left are finally moving into maturity and the ability to direct their own lives vs. being directed...this has been a highly motivating factor to bran and arya...now it seems jon and sansa are catching up remember my words as ever on this board are just the opinions of this one old asshole...feel free to disagree :cheers: So, are they all going to get raped so they could catch up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SugarCrisp Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I had a pretty good feeling that things weren't going to be sunshine and rainbows for Sansa (She is marrying Ramsay after all). But did it have to be in the episode titled "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SugarCrisp Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Double-Post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I never talked about"respecting women or the sanctity of life". I'm not a feminist, and am no more outraged by rape than by murder or torture. Is it so hard to understand that people may dislike this story because the story doesn't make sense! apologies, my mistake and no it isn't hard, i just disagree that it doesn't make sense. i am glad she is out of the vale. it was the most boring part of the books, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerpp Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I'd like to point out that while there were lots of viewers who commented that Theon's Torture of the Week arc was very excessive, I think the reason people are reacting more strongly to this is because a lot of them saw what Theon went through as, at least to some degree, him getting what he deserved. Believe me, if instead of raping her, Ramsay had tortured and murdered Sansa, I'm pretty sure there'd be outrage. I'm glad you brought that up. The same people that believed that Theon deserved castration and loss of self are taking a moral high ground when a woman has to have sex with her husband on her wedding night. How can one be for sexual "agency" and all of those buzzwords, while at the same time clap and cheer when Theon's cock is cut off? A valid argument is: The storyline is a terrible change from the books and makes no sense. LF is being made to look like an ignorant fool and Sansa's rise to player is undermined. An invalid argument is: OMG she was raped, everyone is a sexist misogynist and loves rape! Nobody is saying that the rape "empowers" her. I bloody hate that word as is. Have people never heard of "femme fatales" however? Have you never heard of the women that have seduced men only to later stab them in the back or poison them? That has been happening for centuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4W13Y Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Nobody is saying that the rape "empowers" her. I bloody hate that word as is. Have people never heard of "femme fatales" however? Have you never heard of the women that have seduced men only to later stab them in the back or poison them? That has been happening for centuries. Umm...the show creators, actors, and writers all are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pesci Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I just want throw this out there and see what people think. What if Sansa took Myranda's advice (and in hindsight Cerseis' advice about using what is between her legs) and this is her way of not becoming 'boring' to Ramsay? Sure it is probably a stretch and I already see the "yeah, just let yourself get raped, that's genius" remarks coming, but if Ramsay sees her as submissive and broken, maybe that is how she wants him to see her. Any chance she is going for the "appearances can be deceiving" ploy? And in no way am I condoning or downplaying the rape aspect of this, just offering a different idea as I haven't seen any along these lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerpp Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 Umm...the show creators, actors, and writers all are. Link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerpp Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I just want throw this out there and see what people think. What if Sansa took Myranda's advice (and in hindsight Cerseis' advice about using what is between her legs) and this is her way of not becoming 'boring' to Ramsay? Sure it is probably a stretch and I already see the "yeah, just let yourself get raped, that's genius" remarks coming, but if Ramsay sees her as submissive and broken, maybe that is how she wants him to see her. Any chance she is going for the "appearances can be deceiving" ploy? And in no way am I condoning or downplaying the rape aspect of this, just offering a different idea as I haven't seen any along these lines. Yes this could be a valid ploy. But even more logically - ofcourse she has to have sex with Ramsay! There is no way in the current [shitty] storyline and situation that she gets out of having sex with Ramsay. She must lull Ramsay, and then either kill him or escape [probably with Theon]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valetudo Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I'm glad you brought that up. The same people that believed that Theon deserved castration and loss of self are taking a moral high ground when a woman has to have sex with her husband on her wedding night. How can one be for sexual "agency" and all of those buzzwords, while at the same time clap and cheer when Theon's cock is cut off? A valid argument is: The storyline is a terrible change from the books and makes no sense. LF is being made to look like an ignorant fool and Sansa's rise to player is undermined. An invalid argument is: OMG she was raped, everyone is a sexist misogynist and loves rape! Nobody is saying that the rape "empowers" her. I bloody hate that word as is. Have people never heard of "femme fatales" however? Have you never heard of the women that have seduced men only to later stab them in the back or poison them? That has been happening for centuries. If you read the majority of complaints present on this forum about Sansa's rape, you'll see a lot more of valid arguments than invalid ones. Of course, there are some exceptions, but still. And about the whole "empowered" thing, D&D brought that to themselves. They're the ones that are telling us again and again that Sansa will be EMPOWERED this season. Guess what, we've already seen 6 episodes, and she's even less of a "player" (another of D&D's terms) than she was last season. And now, she endured this "life changing" moment. So it's normal that people are doing that rapprochement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 I'm glad you brought that up. The same people that believed that Theon deserved castration and loss of self are taking a moral high ground when a woman has to have sex with her husband on her wedding night./quote]Back this up or back the fuck off. People have complained about Theon's torture porn and Gendry's rape but back then folks like you just laughed it off as a bunch of prudes overreacting. The only difference is people are actually listening to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 "Empowerment" is effectively D&D's "inconceivable " isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerpp Posted May 19, 2015 Share Posted May 19, 2015 If you read the majority of complaints present on this forum about Sansa's rape, you'll see a lot more of valid arguments than invalid ones. Of course, there are some exceptions, but still. And about the whole "empowered" thing, D&D brought that to themselves. They're the ones that are telling us again and again that Sansa will be EMPOWERED this season. Guess what, we've already seen 6 episodes, and she's even less of a "player" (another of D&D's terms) than she was last season. And now, she endured this "life changing" moment. So it's normal that people are doing that rapprochement. I totally agree that her arc does not make sense. When people start making arguments with buzzwords instead of logic, however, I tend to disagree with them. What you have said is true, but the vast media narrative is going to be about rape, misogyny, and how sexist pigs see rape as a "tool". However, I argue that once they had muddled the story to the point where we were at after episode 5, there was no way the sex could not have happened. There is only one way to get out of the muddle they are in now - Sansa has sex with Ramsay, then waits and betrays him at an opportune moment, hopefully resulting in his brutal death. Most of these characters are put in very bad situations - sometimes by good writing [following the books] and sometimes by bad writing [butterfly effect] - in a very bad society. Often it comes down to how best can one resolve this very bad situation. Sansa's situation is not the worst situation someone on the show has been in. Just because it is "rape" does not make it worse than other people's situations. I'm totally fine with calling the writers idiots and badmouthing the show as long as we d not create this false narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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