Sansa's Empowerment Arc & The Future

[Mithras]

without Lady Stoneheart, Brienne has no future.

She will reunite with Jaime, for sure and she will be involved in the process that will lead to Jaime/Cersei killing each other.

[Guess who's back]

The tears of Sansa fans are so delicious.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I'm increasingly convinced that Sansa is not going to survive the books, and that she's going to fail miserably as a player in the books. I'm not bothered by TV Sansa not showing herself to be much of a player in Season 5. That's not TV Sansa's story that has been shown, and all the talk of her being a player by the showrunners and GRRM appears to be a figleaf for her real storyline in the show: a helpless victim and a credulous pawn of Littlefinger's.

I think Book Sansa's storyline will be about her failure as a player, not her success. That seems wholly consistent with all the talk about TV Sansa being a player being nothing more than talk to date in Season 5, and with TV Sansa being just as helpless in Book Jeyne's situation as Book Jeyne, a non-player untutored in the game of thrones, was. Sansa was always being set up to fail in the show, and I suspect it's because she was always being set up to fail in the books as well, much like other doomed characters before her who made unwise choices under extraordinarily difficult circumstances and found themselves trapped by them. My expectation is that in the show and in the books, her failure will either directly or indirectly cost her her life.

I'm concerned that Jaquen keeps saying 'You are not ready for the game', there is a clear double meaning in what he is saying for us. Arya needs to hone her skills to lie and act. I worry that Littlefinger is pushing Sansa into the Game too soon and that is a parallel they are going for. He thinks she'll be fine, she'll play Ramsey like a fiddle but maybe she just isn't ready yet.

[jet199]

I really don't think they are going to go down the rape=empowerment route so I don't think we can really condemn D&D for using a trope that their is no evidence they are going to use yet.

Certainly in the preview clip Sansa doesn't look very empowered.

There are far more things this could mean for Sansa's character than just empowering or breaking her and it is slightly off that some people here really seem to think those are the only two possible outcomes.

[David Selig]

I think it's ridiculous to even use "empowerment" and other nonsense terms that emanate from the bubble-world of Western countries' university life in viewing GoT.

Terms like that have no empirical/objective grounding in the real world (of which the university is decidedly *not*), and they certainly don't in the GoT universe.

GRRM's world is a fictional world of ice zombies, of living gods of fire, of shadow assassins, and of black magic. Our various ethical codes (no matter how reasonable or ridiculous they are) simply cannot translate to such a world because an orientation towards reality and the future is not possible. There are no laws of physics, of reality, of science. Therefore, you can't make decisions, you can't plan, you can't be assured of anything. Every moment of existence is a jumble of gibberish.

The part in bold is complete nonsense. there are no laws of physics in Westeros? Seriously?

The point: characters here have no power, and can never have power. The gods have power.

Say what? No human has power if gods exist? Tywin never had any power. Robert never had any power. Ned never had any power. Because the gods exist. That doesn't make sense.

Rape didnot empower Sansa because she was already empowered long before it happened. She "chose" to lie to the Vale Lords and save LF's ass. She "chose" to not abandon LF and go with Brienne. She "chose" to go along with the marriage to the Boltons.

So behaving like a moron is empowering now?

[Mandzipop]

Rape didnot empower Sansa because she was already empowered long before it happened. She "chose" to lie to the Vale Lords and save LF's ass. She "chose" to not abandon LF and go with Brienne. She "chose" to go along with the marriage to the Boltons. She "knew" that the marriage will involve consummation. She "saw" that Ramsay enjoys torture. She was "told" that Ramsay is a psycho. From her reactions, I take that she anticipated that nasty shit will happen to her but still, she got along with the plan. That can only be because she is willing to pay the price to have a chance to avenge her family and do finally do something by her own, instead of being carried in a pocket of LF like a doll.

That's how I view it.

There is also another aspect. Ramsey has been torturing her mentally by keeping Theon close as he knows it upsets her. He's torturing them both without being physical. From what it looks like, Sansa is going to discover that Theon didn't kill Bran and Rickon. As long as Ramsey doesn't know, then he's not truly torturing her. Even better if she still pretends that it is torture.

It looks like Sansa and Theon are maybe teaming up as allies. Theon can explain to her how to please Ramsey. In fact playing the victim in front of him whilst scheming and plotting behind his back would be interesting and could fit into the current storyline and looking at the promo, it could be where the story is heading.

There is also an assumption that Sansa doesn't have a plan. Just because we don't know about it doesn't mean she doesn't have one.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I'm increasingly convinced that Sansa is not going to survive the books, and that she's going to fail miserably as a player in the books. I'm not bothered by TV Sansa not showing herself to be much of a player in Season 5. That's not TV Sansa's story that has been shown, and all the talk of her being a player by the showrunners and GRRM appears to be a figleaf for her real storyline in the show: a helpless victim and a credulous pawn of Littlefinger's.

I think Book Sansa's storyline will be about her failure as a player, not her success. That seems wholly consistent with all the talk about TV Sansa being a player being nothing more than talk to date in Season 5, and with TV Sansa being just as helpless in Book Jeyne's situation as Book Jeyne, a non-player untutored in the game of thrones, was. Sansa was always being set up to fail in the show, and I suspect it's because she was always being set up to fail in the books as well, much like other doomed characters before her who made unwise choices under extraordinarily difficult circumstances and found themselves trapped by them. My expectation is that in the show and in the books, her failure will either directly or indirectly cost her her life.

I don't think so. They have all confirmed that Sansa's journey is about taking back her home, hence why she chose to do that. With the Vale going North, they are just cutting the fat, hence no Harry. George has also said that this is a huge butterfly, a Godzilla, and that he hopes the ending stays the same, and links Alayne's chapter, pretty much confirming Sansa won't be raped in the books. Also, I don't think a writer can drag out a storyline for five books for the Lol. The Stark children, and by that I mean Sansa, Arya and Bran, will have to come out on top. They'll pay with their innocence and their childhood, but they'll survive. Maybe not Arya, but I can't see her die before late ADOS.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

The tears of Sansa fans are so delicious.

I'm mourning for your cognitive skills.

[bravosi42]

Any story line where a woman chooses to go into a situation where she will be raped by the family that murdered hers in order to empower herself, is a storyline born from the minds of mysoginistic sexists.

Seriously it is a ludicrous suggestion that any woman outside of a day time soap would consider this.

Ever heard of anne neville or Elizabeth of york. notice any similarities??

[bravosi42]

I am hoping Sansa's ultimate destiny is to survive. Maybe she doesn't become some scheming Wizzo, maybe she won't destroy all those who have wronged her, maybe she just out-last everyone. That in my eyes is a victory. Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Tywin, Joffrey, Lyssa all took direct action in one sequence of events or another and though they were pro-active they are all dead now, I'm hoping Sansa can avoid such a fate.

I don't know what's ahead for her and I can scream, whine and cry about how something was not needed because the books aren't out yet. The fact that she was raped in the show makes me think she will lose her maidenhead in a less than ideal way in the books but thats about it.

If the producers were as rape happy as the mob, I mean fans, like to say, They would have run wild with the Hound/Sansa scene in S2. We would have had Lolly's Stockworths tragic tale unfolding as the seasons rolled on. They definitely toned down everything Sansa went through while she was in Kings Landing.

I don't read these books for Social Justice or PC situations. I read it to be entertained. If this story ever morphs into "My Little Pony" or "Red Sonja" I will consider it a complete waste.

+1

[Natalia Borgia]

I can only say the scene made sense in that Ramsay is an evil psycho. I think even without Theon there he was going to hurt and scare Sansa. No chance of a somewhat normal by Westeros standards wedding night.

[bravosi42]

Rape didnot empower Sansa because she was already empowered long before it happened. She "chose" to lie to the Vale Lords and save LF's ass. She "chose" to not abandon LF and go with Brienne. She "chose" to go along with the marriage to the Boltons. She "knew" that the marriage will involve consummation. She "saw" that Ramsay enjoys torture. She was "told" that Ramsay is a psycho. From her reactions, I take that she anticipated that nasty shit will happen to her but still, she got along with the plan. That can only be because she is willing to pay the price to have a chance to avenge her family and do finally do something by her own, instead of being carried in a pocket of LF like a doll.

Exactly she took a divergence the day ahe saved LF. She is not in control of the situation now , but nor will she be crushed by it. Neither a victim nor I spit on your grave.

[Natalia Borgia]

When we are talking about this I just want to say one more thing and address one more part of the problem. Problem is not Sansa got raped, but way show got to it and handled it. Sansa's scene has been uncalled for, handled and done badly in myriad of different ways, but most people involved in the backlash are wrong, including newspaper and blog writers. Now it's justified to be angry if

- You have been telling for the long time about butchering of the narrative, plot points and underlaying themes of the ASOIAF

- You have been telling for the long time about bad and inconsistent way story progresses with bad writing and directing

- You have been telling for the long time about unrealistic and bad way female characters are treated on the show

Because those things are true and were problem from the day one

But if you are one of those people that were saying show is stellar and perfect and better then books, and now when Sansa got raped, now the show is bad and sexist and all of the above. It was because of your short-sightedness that we came in this position, by not criticizing their previous mistakes, you enabled D&D to make this out of the show and are every bit at fault as they are.

Great comment regarding the sudden mutiny of the Unsullied. Until this episode we have been the geeky book snobs who needed to "understand D&D's larger vision for the show". Nope. More people should have complained.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I don't like the word empowerment and the obsessive desire for it by some in fiction, because a character becoming powerful and taking control of their own fate, without being any victim at all anymore, isn't necessarily the goal, and what would be the better written character. One can easily write such a character, who will be a bad, boring cringy character to read. Seems when mentioning it people manage to conflate feminist politics of wishing powerful non victim women with the goal of good characters in fiction. When those are much different goals, one of which with little value in fiction because suffering of women and/or men in fiction isn't sexist or even a bad thing, as it can make for compelling stories.

Sansa's arc in the show to me shows a more aware Sansa of what is going on than in the books, in part because she is suffering more and show LF isn't doing what book LF was doing, and things are moving faster. The show seems to be foreshadowing that Sansa (and Theon) will finally play a role back in her northern home, but that Sansa won't become a great player. Which is what I always expect for book Sansa as well. Sansa will be influential in some cases, but that's good enough, no need to be a great player, to take advantage of some situations, which Sansa already did back in KL. Of course she will show smarts when taking advantage of those situations. So in certain scenes she could manipulate as well. She could find some allies to help her. The North remembers after all.

With Bolton vs Stannis, LF interfeering and Sansa and Theon as well, it is a clusterfuck that kind of reminds me of Blackwater.

What I expect and find better characters are those who can both be victims and also take actions as well. This empowerment where it is prohibited for a character to be a victim because that doesn't serve their empowerment, is not a goal I care about. Not that it is impossible to make such a good character, though in tragic settings probably will feel even more out of place, and many can't write such a character and make them compelling. Certainly not the feminist politics first group. The point is, that it shouldn't be the goal.

That being said, I am not too confident on the showrunners executing it well, but that is because I find most character arcs in the show to fall bellow their potential and also obviously the books.

I actually care about Sansa's story in the show so far, and more than most other characters. So it has that going for it. Could be much worse.

[Ted Chang]

It seems to me that those considering Sansa's current situation to be something of a 'speed bump' are on the right tracks. The moment she was shoe-horned into marrying Mad Ramsay the wedding night suffering seeemed pretty inevitable. I did wonder whether she and Theon might actually end up topping Ramsay then and there but this way I suspect her anger will be all the more potent when it surfaces. She's clearly developing into a player, but it's rather good that they aren't simply making her development pain free. I have a twinge of sympathy for those of you who have invested emotionally in Sansa, but the truth is that even in modern life things are really pretty shitty. Back in Westeros... well, none of us are strangers to what has gone before. To date the only woman we have seen who can truly look after herself is Brienne. Clever women throughout history have manipulated men into doing their bidding. All things considered, we are gormlessly ripe for that sort of thing.

[Mladen]

Rape didnot empower Sansa because she was already empowered long before it happened. She "chose" to lie to the Vale Lords and save LF's ass. She "chose" to not abandon LF and go with Brienne. She "chose" to go along with the marriage to the Boltons. She "knew" that the marriage will involve consummation. She "saw" that Ramsay enjoys torture. She was "told" that Ramsay is a psycho. From her reactions, I take that she anticipated that nasty shit will happen to her but still, she got along with the plan. That can only be because she is willing to pay the price to have a chance to avenge her family and do finally do something by her own, instead of being carried in a pocket of LF like a doll.

Victim blaming 1.01

[Mithras]

So behaving like a moron is empowering now?

Sansa learned from LF that in order to move pawns, one has to know them and discover what they want. Sansa now knows what Ramsay wants (no competitor half-siblings). She has a chance to manipulate Ramsay into killing Fat Walda just like Talisa was murdered and maybe Roose too. If she chose to be carried like a treasure of LF in his pocket, she would not have such a chance.

And having suffered so much, it comes easier to Sansa to not be broken by traumas. She proved that when she told "Fuck off" to Myranda. She can endure it all if that gives her a chance to avenge her family and take her home back.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Victim blaming 1.01

How is what he was saying victim blaming?

[Rena Melville]

Great comment regarding the sudden mutiny of the Unsullied. Until this episode we have been the geeky book snobs who needed to "understand D&D's larger vision for the show". Nope. More people should have complained.

That's it, until now people would just be like "hey, you don't know the whole story, it didn't happened yet, just wait and see". And now that it did happened, everyone is telling us that "you should have seen it coming, it was obvious, it needed to happen, Ramsay is not a gentleman".

I just don't get it :dunno:

[Mithras]

Victim blaming 1.01

I didnot blame anyone in that post.