Sansa's Empowerment Arc & The Future

[Pies are coming]

That's probably where a lot of the frustration is coming from. As great as the series is, we need a victory at some point.

:agree:

The problem I have is that, in both books and show, the only of the Stark children I see in a position to really extract revenge on their enemies is Sansa.

Bran and Jon are too busy fighting the White Walkers. Jon may end up fighting the Boltons, but that would be a detour for him.

Rickon is simply too young.

Arya is too much of an outcast. Unless she becomes a dragon rider, she won't be able to do more than to kill a few character. Important ones, but a few nonetheless.

Sansa looked like the one who would be able to get an army at her direction.

But after this... she can't. She became Ramsay's toy and she isn't coming back from that. There doesn't seem to be any loyalist Northern Lords (and no, a pair of old servants don't count) with an army. If she didn't act before, I don't see her doing anything other than running away now.

So, are the Starks going to extract vengeance and reclaim their position? As things stand, I simply don't think so. Robb is death, Jon has other concerns, Sansa is useless, Arya is a single hitwoman in training, Bran has other concerns and Rickon doesn't count.

[Valetudo]

Well, since I'm a guy, I think me marrying Bin Laden would be enough to get him removed from command of Al-Qaida or any other islamic terrorist group :P

That said, I'm not a main character in a fictional world. Give me Bumblebee as a car and throw me into a war of giant alien robots and I'll end up dead within hours instead of banging Megan Fox. Things are expected of fictional characters that simply do not easily translate to real world people.

Sansa's options were: develop some sort of relationship with her husband to be (which is a no-brainer) and try to set him against Fat Walda. Which may fail (which is the reason why, should I be asked to marry the head of a terrorist organization, I'll just run the other way as fast as I can), but I'd rather see a story about that failure than a story about a main character drifting along and seemingly shocked that she jumped into a shark's mouth and got devoured.

Or she had the option, like you chose in the example, to refuse to marry Ramsey and stay in the Vale.

But no, we have to believe it's OK for her to chose the unbelievable option, because it will make "more interesting" TV.

If you're OK with that kind of reasoning, fine. But that's certainly not what I would call a good show, like Transformers is not what I call a good movie.

Remember, this show was supposed to be TLotR meets the Sopranos, not the Transformers!

[Lord Godric]

:agree:

But after this... she can't. She became Ramsay's toy and she isn't coming back from that.

Why can't she? Why does being raped by Ramsey now have to define her? That seems so...foolish to suggest, that Sansa now is going to be defined as Ramsey's toy and can no longer exact revenge simply because she was a victim here.

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

I wonder, if Sansa wore a more "empowered" look on her face as it was happening, as if to say, "i've got to bed this guy and Theon is gonna watch and i'm not gonna give either of them the satisfaction of crying out or showing any sign of discomfort", would that have been enough to show the audience Sansa's growing empowerment, as well as bringing Theon back out of Reek? It's no less rape, but Sansa would be seen to at least have some control. Theons reaction would have to stay the same, of course.

For me personally, it would have taken the edge off the scene, but still made the point it wanted to.

[Lord Godric]

Double post.

[Fjordgazer]

LOL at the use of the word "empowerment". Well done. Buzzword assassination of the year.

[PureGold]

I am hoping Sansa's ultimate destiny is to survive. Maybe she doesn't become some scheming Wizzo, maybe she won't destroy all those who have wronged her, maybe she just out-last everyone. That in my eyes is a victory. Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Tywin, Joffrey, Lyssa all took direct action in one sequence of events or another and though they were pro-active they are all dead now, I'm hoping Sansa can avoid such a fate.

I don't know what's ahead for her and I can scream, whine and cry about how something was not needed because the books aren't out yet. The fact that she was raped in the show makes me think she will lose her maidenhead in a less than ideal way in the books but thats about it.

If the producers were as rape happy as the mob, I mean fans, like to say, They would have run wild with the Hound/Sansa scene in S2. We would have had Lolly's Stockworths tragic tale unfolding as the seasons rolled on. They definitely toned down everything Sansa went through while she was in Kings Landing.

I don't read these books for Social Justice or PC situations. I read it to be entertained. If this story ever morphs into "My Little Pony" or "Red Sonja" I will consider it a complete waste.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Why can't she? Why does being raped by Ramsey now have to define her? That seems so...foolish to suggest, that Sansa now is going to be defined as Ramsey's toy and can no longer exact revenge simply because she was a victim here.

On this television of course that can define her. Loras Tyrell is supposed to be a bad ass but on the show he is nothing more than a whiney homosexual.

[Pashernate Reader]

If the producers were as rape happy as the mob, I mean fans, like to say, They would have run wild with the Hound/Sansa scene in S2. We would have had Lolly's Stockworths tragic tale unfolding as the seasons rolled on. They definitely toned down everything Sansa went through while she was in Kings Landing.

They couldn't. They were saving her for this. They've been planning this rape since they sat down to write Season 2.

[rocksniffer]

I think you missed my point. This is what happens when you let contemporary real world passions taint what people say about a fictitious world based on a world that no longer exists. I don't think anyone posting on this forum or anywhere else would actually believe that a modern day woman needs to be raped to be empowered or transformed. I think that real world issues need to be set aside and keep this story in the context/setting is belongs in.

I did not suggest that Sansa has not suffered. I am also certainly not talking about her going for an emo/dark apparel. While in the Vale (books) you see Sansa begin to transform, and in the show you see sort of the same thing. I was pointing out that this scene could be a catalyst that pushes Sansa into a new territory that defines her character. I have no idea where they are taking Sansa, and we have no idea where Martin is taking Sansa. I suggested that this scene changes her from an innocent, sweet child into something more ruthless and harsh (say Dany-ish). Before she reaches Winterfell (show) Sansa obviously shows outwards signs of becoming more in-tune with the game. This specific event, I think and argued, will crush any child innocence she had and she will develop down a different path.

Instead of saying that the rape empowered her, I am suggesting that the tragedy will cause her to become more Cersei/Dany-ish and less of her former self. I am not even arguing that it is a good thing; I am simply pointing out where Sansa's character seems to be heading in the show. Some have already claimed they see a tinge of LS in Sansa now, perhaps.

to me this is exactly the point and fits into the "kill the boy" feel of this whole season...all three stark "kids" have reached a threshold from which there is no return to innocence...it had to happen...

:smoking:

[Annara Snow]

Any story line where a woman chooses to go into a situation where she will be raped by the family that murdered hers in order to empower herself, is a storyline born from the minds of mysoginistic sexists.

Seriously it is a ludicrous suggestion that any woman outside of a day time soap would consider this.

:agree: THIS.

Yeah, let's go on a suicide mission, marrying a psycho and son to the guy who killed my brother .... because REVENGE!!!

That's the kind of trope that is totally unbelievable. I would understand if LF would have told her some plan that permitted her to avenge herself without dying for it, but he didn't tell her anything, just AVENGE YOUR FAMILY. So badass!

:agree:

I'm so sick of people talking about rape empowering female characters, or rapowerment, as I like to call it.

:agree:

I wonder how the Batman franchise has survived all these decades without Bruce Wayne being raped so he would get empowered and start fighting for justice. Because the murder of his parents should clearly not be motive enough!

[Pashernate Reader]

to me this is exactly the point and fits into the "kill the boy" feel of this whole season...all three stark "kids" have reached a threshold from which there is no return to innocence...it had to happen...

:smoking:

I must have missed the episode where Jon and Bran were raped.

[Fjordgazer]

I have been reading the forums for a long time [though not posting much].

There was no world wide internet meltdown outrage for Theon's torture.

There is a simple reason for this. Rape is a bigger deal to feminists than anything else. Bigger than torture, murder, or [especially?] male castration.

By the way I completely agree that Sansa's story makes no sense at all in the show. LF is being made into a fool on the show, and his plan makes no sense logically.

While i also dislike feminism and find their treatment of rape as a crime several degrees of magnitude worse than castration, death or torture, well, a little questionable, you've failed to grasp what the outrage is about. I'm with the feminists in regarding this plot as character assassination and sexist (on top of lazy) storytelling. Cut Jeyne Poole, cut her f*cking plot then, it's only natural in this case.

[Annara Snow]

to me this is exactly the point and fits into the "kill the boy" feel of this whole season...all three stark "kids" have reached a threshold from which there is no return to innocence...it had to happen...

:smoking:

No, it didn't. They had to make a convoluted crazy absurd storyline full of plot holes just so they could get Sansa in place to be raped by Ramsay.

[Annara Snow]

dp

[Annara Snow]

Or she had the option, like you chose in the example, to refuse to marry Ramsey and stay in the Vale.

But no, we have to believe it's OK for her to chose the unbelievable option, because it will make "more interesting" TV.

If you're OK with that kind of reasoning, fine. But that's certainly not what I would call a good show, like Transformers is not what I call a good movie.

Remember, this show was supposed to be TLotR meets the Sopranos, not the Transformers!

Yes, apparently it's more "interesting" if the characters behave in completely irrational ways instead of like real human beings.

[Pashernate Reader]

I have been reading the forums for a long time [though not posting much].

There was no world wide internet meltdown outrage for Theon's torture.

There is a simple reason for this. Rape is a bigger deal to feminists than anything else. Bigger than torture, murder, or [especially?] male castration.

By the way I completely agree that Sansa's story makes no sense at all in the show. LF is being made into a fool on the show, and his plan makes no sense logically.

I'd like to point out that while there were lots of viewers who commented that Theon's Torture of the Week arc was very excessive, I think the reason people are reacting more strongly to this is because a lot of them saw what Theon went through as, at least to some degree, him getting what he deserved. Believe me, if instead of raping her, Ramsay had tortured and murdered Sansa, I'm pretty sure there'd be outrage.

[PureGold]

Why can't she? Why does being raped by Ramsey now have to define her? That seems so...foolish to suggest, that Sansa now is going to be defined as Ramsey's toy and can no longer exact revenge simply because she was a victim here.

This I completely agree with. Some act like Sansa's storyline ends here just because she's know longer a virgin or she wasn't deflowered by a Prince Charming. This is another chapter in her life, I'll be it a tragic one. I don't think this bars her from experiencing triumph or GASP!?!?! Potential satisfaction in the future. Or she could come to a terrible end ultimately, NOBODY can rule that out because we don't know how the Story of Sansa Stark concludes.

The fact that GRRM says that the show will hit most of the big beats and end up in the same place makes me more inclined to accept his word and that of the Producers then angry internet posters who do not have the inside track on the complete journey of the character in question.

[rocksniffer]

Or she had the option, like you chose in the example, to refuse to marry Ramsey and stay in the Vale.

But no, we have to believe it's OK for her to chose the unbelievable option, because it will make "more interesting" TV.

If you're OK with that kind of reasoning, fine. But that's certainly not what I would call a good show, like Transformers is not what I call a good movie.

Remember, this show was supposed to be TLotR meets the Sopranos, not the Transformers!

a show dedicated to respecting women and the sanctity of life...or am i confused

:smoking:

I am hoping Sansa's ultimate destiny is to survive. Maybe she doesn't become some scheming Wizzo, maybe she won't destroy all those who have wronged her, maybe she just out-last everyone. That in my eyes is a victory. Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Tywin, Joffrey, Lyssa all took direct action in one sequence of events or another and though they were pro-active they are all dead now, I'm hoping Sansa can avoid such a fate.

I don't know what's ahead for her and I can scream, whine and cry about how something was not needed because the books aren't out yet. The fact that she was raped in the show makes me think she will lose her maidenhead in a less than ideal way in the books but thats about it.

If the producers were as rape happy as the mob, I mean fans, like to say, They would have run wild with the Hound/Sansa scene in S2. We would have had Lolly's Stockworths tragic tale unfolding as the seasons rolled on. They definitely toned down everything Sansa went through while she was in Kings Landing.

I don't read these books for Social Justice or PC situations. I read it to be entertained. If this story ever morphs into "My Little Pony" or "Red Sonja" I will consider it a complete waste.

Pure-fucking-gold :cheers:

[Lord Godric]

On this television of course that can define her. Loras Tyrell is supposed to be a bad ass but on the show he is nothing more than a whiney homosexual.

I agree that Loras is defined by his homosexuality and that is a larger problem with the series, but the assertion about Sansa sounds to me like emotions clouding one's thoughts.