Sansa's Empowerment Arc & The Future

[rocksniffer]

So, are they all going to get raped so they could catch up?

i see you have no desire to admit that i have the right to see it differently than you. fine keep beating you head against this wall, i don't care...though frankly it is not as amusing as i had hoped. :mellow:

sansa got raped, bran got crippled, robb got killed...all are equal to me...terrible but equal....

arya was the first to "kill the boy" and i assume that she has escaped the raping due to the actress' age...however she has been threatened and only escaped because, to me she was the first to take charge of how she would deal with her changed situation following her father's death...willing to kill, lie, cheat, steal etc...

[Jerpp]

i see you have no desire to admit that i have the right to see it differently than you. fine keep beating you head against this wall, i don't care...though frankly it is not as amusing as i had hoped. :mellow:

sansa got raped, bran got crippled, robb got killed...all are equal to me...terrible but equal....

arya was the first to "kill the boy" and i assume that she has escaped the raping due to the actress' age...however she has been threatened and only escaped because, to me she was the first to take charge of how she would deal with her changed situation following her father's death...willing to kill, lie, cheat, steal etc...

Well said

[Jerpp]

Why the personal attack?

I never laughed at Theon. I didn't like what happened to Gendry either. What else do you know about "folks like me"?

Who are these people listening? And what are they listening to?

[Winter's Knight]

Why the personal attack?

Mate my tone is acerbic because it's four in the morning and I'm awake because I foolishly hoped I could finish Ace Attorney 4 but at the risk of sounding insanely peevish you made it personal first and I have quoted you on it.

[Jerpp]

Ah didn't mean you. Was talking generally. There's nothing more to be gained here.

Cheers!

[hallam]

Sheessh

No, its not the rape that is empowering, it is the foiling of the Boltons' plot by escaping.

Sansa does agree to the marriage but she is tricked by Little Finger who is playing his own game and does not care about anyone else. He murdered Sansa's aunt in front of her, he betrayed her father causing his death. Yet Sansa played along biding her time because so far there hasn't been an alternative plan.

Now she is back in the North, Sansa is with her people and she knows there are people she can trust. She also knows that she has to pick her moment carefully.

People are reacting to their own pet hobby horses here. Rape is bad, seeing your father's head on a spike is in a different league. And Sansa has consented to the sex act, it is whacko Ramsay who then turns it into a rape for his own sadistic ends. He is raping Sansa and Theon simultaneously by forcing Theon to watch him rape the woman he grew up with, something Theon can never hope to do because Ramsay has cut off Theon's cock.

Yes, it is actually more about Theon than Sansa.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

I think it's ridiculous to even use "empowerment" and other nonsense terms that emanate from the bubble-world of Western countries' university life in viewing GoT.

Terms like that have no empirical/objective grounding in the real world (of which the university is decidedly *not*), and they certainly don't in the GoT universe.

GRRM's world is a fictional world of ice zombies, of living gods of fire, of shadow assassins, and of black magic. Our various ethical codes (no matter how reasonable or ridiculous they are) simply cannot translate to such a world because an orientation towards reality and the future is not possible. There are no laws of physics, of reality, of science. Therefore, you can't make decisions, you can't plan, you can't be assured of anything. Every moment of existence is a jumble of gibberish.

The point: characters here have no power, and can never have power. The gods have power. "Raped" on your wedding night? Shake your fist at the gods, and hope they don't hurl lightning bolts at you. Maybe they'll hurl them at your spouse. But your wishes are irrelevant in this world. Shitty things happen to good people, wonderful things happen to shitty people -- there's no rhyme or reason to it. And you have no power to alter any of this.

But subtract out the magic-based metaphysics. Let's assume GRRM's fictional universe is one akin to our early-medieval western European world. Our ethics still wouldn't apply because that world was one of clan-based ethics -- loyalty to kith and kin was everything. Don't want to be married off to the psychotic creep from a rival family? Too damn bad, your family can marry you off to whomever the hell they wish. And you better consummate the marriage. Your individual "power" didn't mean anything at all in that world either.

Before each episode, HBO gives a "trigger warning" (another nonsense term from university life) telling viewers there is adult content, violence, nudity etc. After reading hundreds of these posts on this topic, I've come to conclude that some posters here simply aren't mature enough to be watching HBO's Game of Thrones. The GoT universe has it's own ethics, it's own internal logic -- trying to impose those from the university bubble-world on the show is unfair to the show's creators and is pretty silly. To do so for 5 years, complaining, crying, being offended, is just immature.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

Double post.

[Valetudo]

Sheessh

No, its not the rape that is empowering, it is the foiling of the Boltons' plot by escaping.

Sansa does agree to the marriage but she is tricked by Little Finger who is playing his own game and does not care about anyone else. He murdered Sansa's aunt in front of her, he betrayed her father causing his death. Yet Sansa played along biding her time because so far there hasn't been an alternative plan.

Now she is back in the North, Sansa is with her people and she knows there are people she can trust. She also knows that she has to pick her moment carefully.

People are reacting to their own pet hobby horses here. Rape is bad, seeing your father's head on a spike is in a different league. And Sansa has consented to the sex act, it is whacko Ramsay who then turns it into a rape for his own sadistic ends. He is raping Sansa and Theon simultaneously by forcing Theon to watch him rape the woman he grew up with, something Theon can never hope to do because Ramsay has cut off Theon's cock.

Yes, it is actually more about Theon than Sansa.

What about the "light a candle if you need help" plan? Was she required to be raped before realizing that she needed help?

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

What about the "light a candle if you need help" plan? Was she required to be raped before realizing that she needed help?

That's the thing though, she knew it was coming and LF even eluded to it when he and Sansa spoke in the crypt.

[Valetudo]

No, its not the rape that is empowering, it is the foiling of the Boltons' plot by escaping.

I don't see why escaping a situation that you created yourself is so empowering.

What did she gain from this whole plan if the"big moment" is the escape? Wasn't she there for REVENGE!

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Posted this in another thread, but my scenario is more fitting for this thread:

I just watched it again. I still really liked it, but I can understand why a lot of people are pissed about the Sansa rape scene. It really didn't advance the story of any of the characters involved. If D&D had decided to do the switch-a-roo with Arya (my favorite character) I would be livid right now.

I think it would have been a much smarter scene if Sansa had been a willing participant in the consummation. First, it would show her growth as a real player, fooling Ramsey on their wedding night, and we could have gotten the same reaction from Reek. I'm curious for those that hated that last scene would you have been ok if the scene had gone down the way I described?

[Ismay73]

Posted this in another thread, but my scenario is more fitting for this thread:

I just watched it again. I still really liked it, but I can understand why a lot of people are pissed about the Sansa rape scene. It really didn't advance the story of any of the characters involved. If D&D had decided to do the switch-a-roo with Arya (my favorite character) I would be livid right now.

I think it would have been a much smarter scene if Sansa had been a willing participant in the consummation. First, it would show her growth as a real player, fooling Ramsey on their wedding night, and we could have gotten the same reaction from Reek. I'm curious for those that hated that last scene would you have been ok if the scene had gone down the way I described?

Here's the thing. Ramsay is a mental case. A psycho. Even if Sansa undressed quickly and gave him a smile, he'd still probably slap her around. He'd still be rough. Someone like Sansa, who is a virgin, who is probably just prepared for missionary-style sex, would be completely out of her league. If she now tries to play the femme fatale, who would she learn that from? Dany had someone give her tips. But even then it was just learning a different sexual position. Ramsay's tastes are depraved and there's no way Sansa could keep up or fake it because I doubt she even knows a fraction of what people like him are into. It would be incomprehensible to her. As it is to many of us who have read or seen what a sicko he is.

[rocksniffer]

I think it's ridiculous to even use "empowerment" and other nonsense terms that emanate from the bubble-world of Western countries' university life in viewing GoT.

Terms like that have no empirical/objective grounding in the real world (of which the university is decidedly *not*), and they certainly don't in the GoT universe.

GRRM's world is a fictional world of ice zombies, of living gods of fire, of shadow assassins, and of black magic. Our various ethical codes (no matter how reasonable or ridiculous they are) simply cannot translate to such a world because an orientation towards reality and the future is not possible. There are no laws of physics, of reality, of science. Therefore, you can't make decisions, you can't plan, you can't be assured of anything. Every moment of existence is a jumble of gibberish.

The point: characters here have no power, and can never have power. The gods have power. "Raped" on your wedding night? Shake your fist at the gods, and hope they don't hurl lightning bolts at you. Maybe they'll hurl them at your spouse. But your wishes are irrelevant in this world. Shitty things happen to good people, wonderful things happen to shitty people -- there's no rhyme or reason to it. And you have no power to alter any of this.

But subtract out the magic-based metaphysics. Let's assume GRRM's fictional universe is one akin to our early-medieval western European world. Our ethics still wouldn't apply because that world was one of clan-based ethics -- loyalty to kith and kin was everything. Don't want to be married off to the psychotic creep from a rival family? Too damn bad, your family can marry you off to whomever the hell they wish. And you better consummate the marriage. Your individual "power" didn't mean anything at all in that world either.

Before each episode, HBO gives a "trigger warning" (another nonsense term from university life) telling viewers there is adult content, violence, nudity etc. After reading hundreds of these posts on this topic, I've come to conclude that some posters here simply aren't mature enough to be watching HBO's Game of Thrones. The GoT universe has it's own ethics, it's own internal logic -- trying to impose those from the university bubble-world on the show is unfair to the show's creators and is pretty silly. To do so for 5 years, complaining, crying, being offended, is just immature.

:bowdown: that perfectly sums it up, and since i believe there is nothing more useful to add...

i shall bid every one goodnight...since i am sure my pictionary results are up by now

:smoking:

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Here's the thing. Ramsay is a mental case. A psycho. Even if Sansa undressed quickly and gave him a smile, he'd still probably slap her around. He'd still be rough. Someone like Sansa, who is a virgin, who is probably just prepared for missionary-style sex, would be completely out of her league. If she now tries to play the femme fatale, who would she learn that from? Dany had someone give her tips. But even then it was just learning a different sexual position. Ramsay's tastes are depraved and there's no way Sansa could keep up or fake it because I doubt she even knows a fraction of what people like him are into.

You know now that you point that out how was this scene any different than when Khal Drogo took Dany in season 1? In my opinion it was more tame other than Theon all crying.

[Valetudo]

Posted this in another thread, but my scenario is more fitting for this thread:

I just watched it again. I still really liked it, but I can understand why a lot of people are pissed about the Sansa rape scene. It really didn't advance the story of any of the characters involved. If D&D had decided to do the switch-a-roo with Arya (my favorite character) I would be livid right now.

I think it would have been a much smarter scene if Sansa had been a willing participant in the consummation. First, it would show her growth as a real player, fooling Ramsey on their wedding night, and we could have gotten the same reaction from Reek. I'm curious for those that hated that last scene would you have been ok if the scene had gone down the way I described?

I would still not think of it as OK, because I still believe that the whole situation she has put herself into is unbelievable, but it would have been at least understandable.

The show is trying to sell her as "a player", then please make her act like one. Rolling your eyes at the dinner, refusing to drink to toasts and now being a victim during the consummation doesn't show me any character growth.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

I would still not think of it as OK, because I still believe that the whole situation she has put herself into is unbelievable, but it would have been at least understandable.

The show is trying to sell her as "a player", then please make her act like one. Rolling your eyes at the dinner, refusing to drink to toasts and now being a victim during the consummation doesn't show me any character growth.

What about her seeing through Myranda's bullshit? Old Sansa wouldn't have seen that.

[nationalanthem91]

Hi all -

I was very active last week on these boards AGAINST the concept of Sansa going through another victim arc. My thoughts were that she already played the victim role during her time in KL. Now that she's in WF, I thought she would go through an awakening based on her LF and Cersei manipulation training and turn into a power broker. I did NOT think they were going to take her down Jeyne Poole's arc from the books....and I still don't.

Though the the showrunners had Ramsay rape her, the scene was nowhere near as horrible as in the book and I don't think that going forward she's going to be confined to her chambers and tortured by Ramsay as Jeyne Poole was in the books. Somebody I was debating likened Sansa's forthcoming arc to the first season arc for Lucretzia in The Borgias. At the time I pooh-poohed it, but now I'm starting to think that is how this plays out. I was still a little upset because Sansa showed such strength in the bath scene...I totally thought that she was already in control....but I am of a firm belief that the rape did not "break" her, if anything, it was a speed bump on the onramp to the Strong Sansa arc that I still hold out hope is in the works.

Controversy and political discussion aside, where do you see that arc going in light of this past week's events? Any other Borgias watchers notice that parallel between Sansa and Lucretzia emerging? I am a little biased now toward thinking that the show will play out events like in the book, except with Sansa playing a more active role (perhaps as the Ghost of Winterfell) than Jeyne ever could. My thoughts are that Sansa will appeal to Theon, who will reveal that he didn't kill her brothers (which unfortunately makes her expendable), and then the two plot to escape and likely end up in Stannis' hands as per the book (except for the part about Sansa being with Stannis).

My other thought is that LF riding to Winterfell with Vale knights might tie in to the book with Sansa instead riding to Winterfell...but that's neither here nor there.

I agree with you completely! I have been called crazy for thinking that I still think Sansa's strong side has yet to show, but I think that part of her is still in there. I do agree with the people who have said she's replacing Jeyne from the books, but I don't think she'll be replacing her completely. I can't see her being locked up in solitude away from everyone, and I certainly can't really see her being abused...or, at least, not like Jeyne was. There may be a couple more bedroom scenes...(or mention of bedroom scenes) which makes me cringe, but I don't think the show will go to the extent of completely breaking her down. Why the hell go through all that work of making her "dark Sansa" in season 4 only to have her completely fall into the victim role again?

I have been thinking about where her story arc could ago a lot, and I've come up with a few ideas.

1. Her time in Winterfell could come to an abrupt end in the next couple of episodes if Theon is able to break through the Reek persona and help her out by alerting Brienne and Pod. If that's the case, Pod will probably sneak into WF (I don't think Brienne would, as Roose and a lot of soldiers know what she looks like) and with the help of Theon, he'll smuggle Sansa out of there. From there, one of two things could happen. One: Brienne, Sansa, Pod, and (maybe) Theon will run off and eventually run into Stannis and his gang. The other option is a bit more dark, and that would be that Ramsay gets pissed off that Theon and Sansa escaped and then goes "hunting" for them. If that's the case, and he catches them, I'd fear for Brienne and Pod a lot. Theon would probably be in danger too.

2. Sansa puts up with whatever hand Ramsay deals her and holds her own, despite the unfortunate events she goes through. If this is the case, I can see her observing both Ramsay and Roose and then trying to manipulate Ramsay against his own father. Theon could probably help her in that area, since he knows what irritates and pleases Ramsay. Once she's able to sneak her way into tricking him into doing what she wants, I could see her becoming a powerful woman figure at WF and eventually turning on the Boltons in the next season or by season 7 at the absolute latest.

3. Kinda like idea #2, except a bit darker. Maybe she is able to slowly (and by slowly, I mean not until the next season) manipulate Ramsay into doing what she wants, and somehow this leads to a "Lady Stoneheart" arc. Obviously the real LS wouldn't exist, but Sansa would be able to use Ramsay's ability to mercilessly torture people to her advantage, and then when the timing is right, she'd kill him and Roose.

Like I said, those are the 3 options I've come up with. Maybe this is wrong of me, but I really hope idea 2 or 3 becomes a reality instead of idea 1. I think all 3 are entirely possible, and it's really just a matter of how faithful they want to be with the books (Theon's arc, Ramsay's arc) and how much they want to thrill us as fans. In my own personal opinion, and as cruel as this may sound to some people, I don't want her to escape Wintefell. She shouldn't have to leave her home; she should take it back from the scum who stole it from her family. It would be so, so great to see her hold her own against the Boltons, only to eventually betray them like the way they betrayed her brother and mother.

Just my two cents!

[Colonel Green]

What about her seeing through Myranda's bullshit? Old Sansa wouldn't have seen that.

What bullshit? The point of that scene was that Myranda is right and Sansa is wrong, as Ramsay subsequently proves.

I don't see why escaping a situation that you created yourself is so empowering.

What did she gain from this whole plan if the"big moment" is the escape? Wasn't she there for REVENGE!

Yeah, if all Sansa does in this story is escape, it is a complete failure.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

What bullshit? The point of that scene was that Myranda is right and Sansa is wrong, as Ramsay subsequently proves.

Yeah, if all Sansa does in this story is escape, it is a complete failure.

Myranda was obviously just pretending to be nice to her and then scare her. Sansa saw through it.