Critic's reaction to S5E6

[HouseHarrison]

It's hilarious that GoT is only getting criticism when their own casual mainstream tumblr target demo turns on them.

[Troy Reynolds]

It's hilarious that GoT is only getting criticism when their own casual mainstream tumblr target demo turns on them.

Says something pretty clear about the media.

[Annara Snow]

It's hilarious that GoT is only getting criticism when their own casual mainstream tumblr target demo turns on them.

You obviously haven't been to Tumblr much if you think GoT had previously been praised by many users there, instead of ripped apart for their terrible writing choices, lack of understanding of source material, and complete failure to write female characters well.

[grumpus]

If you believe our problem is about the show not being politically-correct, then you've certainly not read our complaints. We're all fans of the books here, and god knows if they are violent/disturbing ...

Just read the review linked in the post above yours to understand what we're talking about, before generalizing.

I have read the complaints, just as I've heard this sort of thing about literature from certain quarters of academia and criticism for decades.

What I see in this case is a lot of hyper-feminist contrivance, justifying what is "excessive" or "offensive" or "gratuitious" and what isn't. Mainly, though, I think I detect people who are mad that the show is different fromthe books and that the show will spoil the ending of the books, and they want to smash it.

But back to this episode. The point is, it doesn't matter. I love art that offends my tastes and sensibilities. I love art that shoves things I don't like or think at me, as long as it's true to human life. I don't like telling writers that they shouldn't offend me or anyone else. I want artists to produce art that challenges me, without spending ONE SINGLE SECOND worrying about offending anyone.

[R4W13Y]

The best critic about Game of Thrones out there:

Unbroken, Unbent, Unbroken, Unbowed, Unbowed, Unbent…

A review of “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken,” the sixth episode of the fifth season of “Game of Thrones”

by Miodrag Zarković

Absolutely LOVE their discussions and reviews. Always filled with such good points with lots of logical, sound arguments to back up each claim. Very good reading.

no my friend, I'm talking about the SCRIPT, where is the writing necessity for making the character pass through another traumatic experience, and one even worse than those of the books.

In other words, if you're writing a story about a prince rescuing a princess, the necessity of making the effort more significant may represent itself in the form of somekind of danger that the hero must face, or some sacrifice that he must make. Like a dragon guarding the princess. If you are writing this story and I ask you "why did you put a second dragon inside the princess chambers? the one outside was enough, sounds excessive to make the hero face the same threat again, it adds nothing" the correct answer you must give me is a narrative one, not something like "BUT THE DRAGON HAS A BROTHER, I HAD TO PUT IT SOMEWHERE".

Spot on. It's a logical fallacy to keep arguing in that way during this discussion. It misses the point and dodges the question.

At least this thread will die quickly!

Here's hoping any second now. If it was a Rant and Rave thread, it would have died on page 1 :P

My experience of critics is most of them are writing for a target audience. As such they are about as useful as a review in a computer game magazine.

My impression was that as long as the reviews were favorable, many ardent fans of the show quoted them as proof that the show was great and that those criticizing it were wrong.

EXACTLY :bowdown:

*whispers: Why are we in yet another discussion where we try to explain ourselves over and over again and all we get is new silly arguments.

*shouts at mods: I promise I will never talk about the rape scene again if you give us the "rant and rave" thread back! :frown5:

OMG the shutting down of the R&R threads is always an arrow through my heart. Add one more to the list of "I will never discuss Sansa or anything related to rape on these boards again if you bring our R&R threads back!"

As to your first point, that's what each thread in this episode discussion has devolved into, with the exact same scenarios playing out. There's no point any longer.

I think it pretty much works both ways. You just find the critic you like and ride them like a bus.

Except for the critics quoted in the OP are all critics who were praising the show last week and before. They are critics who have been cited by show apologists as evidence for the continued success of the show just last week. But now that the critics are turning on the show they're just critics/they're biased/they have an agenda/etc.

To say that this is fine "because rape also happened in the books" is completely moronic. The problem is not with the rape itself, but with the absurdity of the situation: there is no way that putting Sansa and Ramsay together would not have an outcome that would ruin one of the two characters. For Sansa to be raped when she is starting to gain agency is a retrocess. For Ramsay to not rape his wife when he clearly will suffer no consequence is a character assassination. So in the first place the two should not meet.

The only reason there "must be a marriage at Winterfell" is to reforce House Bolton disposition with the other Northern houses. As in the show there are not other northern houses (or if they exist they do not exercise pressure over the Boltons) there is not a single reason for them to marry with a relative of House Stark. So the ONLY reason for this scene to exist is that the showrunners thought would be great, polemic and controversial. It is really not relevant if the show is successful at this or not. The point is that at a storytelling perspective it is an error and with it one characterization is destroyed: Sansa's.

:agree:

The show lost a MILLION viewers from episode 1 to episode 2. Why? Because episode 1 sucked, and it continues to lose viewers this season because this season is not very good. It's not very good for multiple reasons, including that the show has a tendency to do poorly thought out WOW OMG things like having Sansa marry Ramsay Bolton without really appearing to think through what the ramifications are or then, just blatantly ignoring the ramifications as they are going to do in this case. And so you will not see a broken Sansa, you're going to see a Sansa who was made stronger by sexual abuse, which is gross and totally unrealistic.

It's funny, somehow the show is unable to invent storylines, except when they can, so they couldn't have invented anything for Osha and Rickon..two characters that viewers know..because: books, but its okay on the other hand when they diverge from the books because: TV.

:bowdown:

I don't get how this thread can still be open, but no new "rant and rave" thread has been permitted!

It's basically violating all the rules, with talk about definition of rape, personal attacks, obvious trolling,...

And all of that since the first page.

UGH okay, can someone please explain this to me? The Rant and Rave threads always have the most insightful, civil, and engaging discussions on this forum (in my opinion) and they keep getting shut down lately thanks to trolls or people who don't understand the point of the thread. It sucks that those that use that thread and enjoy that thread are punished, where those who make it get shut down are not punished (rather rewarded, since they've succeeded in taking something away from those of us that love the thread).

This thread, by the logic of the other locked threads in this episode discussion, should have been locked on page 1.

Seems like the same discussion is happening in each thread. Can't get away from it :frown5:

This is the most accurate and insightful analysis of the problems with the show that I have read anywhere. The problem with these writers is that they don't understand storytelling. They don't understand why when GRRM did it in ADWD is works, and them doing it (with a different character) doesn't. Their defenders who whine "GRRM also did in the books, so why didn't you have a problem with it then, why do you hate the show?" are like Theon who was resentful that the people of Winterfell didn't like him after he took over in ACOK. "I can treat you fair and kind like the Starks, so why won't you love me like you did them?"

:agree:

If you believe our problem is about the show not being politically-correct, then you've certainly not read our complaints. We're all fans of the books here, and god knows if they are violent/disturbing ...

Just read the review linked in the post above yours to understand what we're talking about, before generalizing.

The blatant admission by these apologists to not even attempting to read through the comments and discussion makes it completely pointless to try and engage with them.

[Valetudo]

They knew it would upset people, they just didn't care. There was nothing necessary about that scene. This is not art we are watching, and even if it was (and it's not, by a long stretch, this is one of the most disjointed and badly told stories I've ever seen on film), there's no form of art that requires such gratuitous sexual violence. They think since they run the table, anything goes. Enough people will watch. I'm with the Mary Sue editor, enough is enough, I'm not watching their hateful show.

They were maybe trying to create some buzz around the show, knowing that the first half of the season was pretty bad. That's one of the only reasons I see.

Last year, even if the Jaime/Cersei scene was very controversial, viewer numbers grown after it if I remember correctly.

The argument that everything is justified because it's art is absurd. If your work is good, things justify themselves. If not, then your work has a problem.

OT: @le cygne: are you french?

[Good Guy Garlan]

Hide yo book characters, hide yo show characters, cause they rapin' everybody out here!

Enough with the "there's a lot of rape in the books too" shtick. Yeah, there is, and myself and a lot of people I know criticize GRRM plenty for it. Frankly, I think the thing with Jeyne Poole was pure and disgusting shock value, nothing else.

And you know what? If I had been in D&D's shoes I would've scrapped that scene with Jeyne altogether, because there was no need for that shit.

But D&D read the books, chock-full of rape as they are, and said: "Hmmm, you know what the series needs? More rape".

And damm if they're not trying to one up GRRM in that regard. Hell, let's see how much rape D&D added to a series that had more than enough to begin with:

- Cersei got raped

- Sansa got raped

- Tommen got raped (yeah, motherfuckers, deal with it)

- The almost-rape of Theon

- The almost-rape of Meera Reed

I mean, it's almost funny to think they did it again after the Jaime-Cersei fiasco last season, but I think D&D don't even care at this point. They're laughing their way to the bank.

[R4W13Y]

Hide yo book characters, hide yo show characters, cause they rapin' everybody out here!

-snip-

But D&D read the books, chock-full of rape as they are, and said: "Hmmm, you know what the series needs? More rape".

And damm if they're not trying to one up GRRM in that regard. Hell, let's see how much rape D&D added to a series that had more than enough to begin with:

- Cersei got raped

- Sansa got raped

- Tommen got raped (yeah, motherfuckers, deal with it)

- The almost-rape of Theon

- The almost-rape of Meera Reed

I mean, it's almost funny to think they did it again after the Jaime-Cersei fiasco last season, but I think D&D don't even care at this point. They're laughing their way to the bank.

Perfection.

[Ser Cookie Monster]

That's not about empowering Sansa. That's about Sansa screwing up and making mistakes.

And this isn't victim blaming. Some weeks ago a real rape became news in Buenos Aires: the friend of a real 20 years old girl left her without her purse (and keys, money, cell phone, etc) after hitting the bars on a Saturday night. A taxi driver pretended to pity the girl and told her he'd take her home for free. The girl agreed and passed out during the trip. She woke up when the taxi driver was starting to rape her.

This real victim, who also brought the case forward so her rapist would be found and incarcerated (he's on the loose) also wrote a few public letter, probably as part of her therapy. The last one of this letter written by this real victim of a very real crime includes something that goes along these lines: "I made mistakes (she details them in a few short paragraphs). What he did was a crime (...) I can take charge of the mistakes I've made. Him, unlike me who made two mistakes, committed a crime"

Here's the full text (you can use google translate)

http://www.losandes.com.ar/article/la-desgarradora-carta-de-manuela-la-chica-violada-por-un-taxista

Sansa Stark, a fictional character, made several mistakes along the season. Those are her mistakes. What Ramsay did to her in that fiction was one of Sansa's mistakes. It was an action by Ramsay (since it's not a crime in Westeros).

I think, given the nature of the show, that everyone here is adult enough to understand that difference.

No need for Google translate, I speak Spanish ;)

Yes, they both made mistakes and will have to deal with them. However, both scenarios are completely different.

First of all, the girl was just trying to get home. Sansa on the other hand, didn’t want to go to Winterfell. She even told Littlefinger that she didn’t consider it her home anymore. To convince her, he told her that she should “stop being a bystander. Stop running” and that this would be her opportunity to avenge her family. Then he gave her a “choice” and she made it.

Second, the girl made a mistake by trusting the taxi driver, but she trusted him because it was a type of taxi that people consider “safe”. Sansa, knew perfectly well who the Boltons are and what they’ve done. Yes, she probably wasn’t expecting something that bad, but she knew what kind of people they were. This means that knowing how awful they are, she chose to go to avenge her family and take action in hands. The way the writers have written her storyline suggests that the point is to empower her.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Hate that y'all are saying it happened to Sansa that makes it worse

Sounds hypocritical

Except that nobody is saying that.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

I have just spent about an hour deleting personal sniping from this thread.

If you have continuing disagreements with another poster, please take it to PM, or use the ignore function.

It seems a reminder of the rules is necessary:

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If you disagree with someone's view, even very deeply, don't treat that as disliking that person. Personal arguments are a waste of time, and likely to lead to breaking board rules. Besides, you will probably find another topic later on which you agree with that person. Argue with the view, not the person: in footballing parlance, play the ball, not the man.

12. Don't moan.

We discourage people from using the open forums to complain about the behaviour of other boarders or about the decisions of the moderators. Such posts are unnecessary in any case. Use the Report and PM functions: it's what they're for.

[MOD]

[Khal Boner]

They knew it would upset people, they just didn't care. There was nothing necessary about that scene. This is not art we are watching, and even if it was (and it's not, by a long stretch, this is one of the most disjointed and badly told stories I've ever seen on film), there's no form of art that requires such gratuitous sexual violence. They think since they run the table, anything goes. Enough people will watch. I'm with the Mary Sue editor, enough is enough, I'm not watching their hateful show.

Garbage. Ok so you didn't like the scene but it was not gratuitous and we were never shown any sexual violence, it was all off camera. It was a powerful scene that will fundamentally change the plotlines of at least 3 major characters. It was in line with the theme of the books, brave writing and necessary to finally crush Sansa's trust in Littlefinger. It also juxtaposed with her first wedding night with Tyrion. It was a necessary scene to the story D & D are writing. Or they wouldn't have written it.

[Le Cygne]

And damm if they're not trying to one up GRRM in that regard. Hell, let's see how much rape D&D added to a series that had more than enough to begin with:

- Cersei got raped

- Sansa got raped

- Tommen got raped (yeah, motherfuckers, deal with it)

- The almost-rape of Theon

- The almost-rape of Meera Reed

I mean, it's almost funny to think they did it again after the Jaime-Cersei fiasco last season, but I think D&D don't even care at this point. They're laughing their way to the bank.

Gendry, I don't think he volunteered for the penis leeches. That was his first time, probably.

Dany on her wedding night, in the books she said yes and made the first move, which was very different than on the show.

And I agree, they should have just cut the Jeyne Poole subplot. They seem to have redirected the Jon part of that, his love for Arya (not much point to that anymore). And in the books that shows what LF does to girls without Cat's red hair and a claim to Winterfell.

But they already went there with the Lysene girl he sold to a Ramsay type for torture, and Ros who he gave to Joffrey for torture. They were setting up LF as a psycho, they even filmed him like Norman Bates in Psycho, peering through the peephole.

And now suddenly Sansa is a "hardened woman" with "choices" and LF is the voice of truth, telling her don't run, seek revenge for your family, while she's isolated in enemy turf with a passel of knights who answer to him and almost killed her mother's protector. When he's the one who killed her family! He destroyed her life, but hey, choices.

[Dracosmith]

I think I need to re-watch this scene. My initial take on it, quite honestly, was that Sansa was not raped. I saw it as she had chosen to marry this man she didn't want to marry, and bent over to do her duty after he commanded her too. Now I found it sad and repugnant that he had Theon stay and watch, but I didn't think it was rape.

I took it more as someone chosing to do something they had no desire to do, but not as rape. Does anyone have that same take, or am I alone in this? I really will need to re-watch it, I think.

[Khal Boner]

I think I need to re-watch this scene. My initial take on it, quite honestly, was that Sansa was not raped. I saw it as she had chosen to marry this man she didn't want to marry, and bent over to do her duty after he commanded her too. Now I found it sad and repugnant that he had Theon stay and watch, but I didn't think it was rape.

I took it more as someone chosing to do something they had no desire to do, but not as rape. Does anyone have that same take, or am I alone in this? I really will need to re-watch it, I think.

Almost inevitably there has been a huge amount of presentism attached to this episode.

[Le Cygne]

They were maybe trying to create some buzz around the show, knowing that the first half of the season was pretty bad. That's one of the only reasons I see.

Last year, even if the Jaime/Cersei scene was very controversial, viewer numbers grown after it if I remember correctly.

The argument that everything is justified because it's art is absurd. If your work is good, things justify themselves. If not, then your work has a problem.

OT: @le cygne: are you french?

There was the melodramatic setup, Will the Sacrificial Virgin be raped by The Devil? Or rescued in time? Stay tuned.

And the way it was filmed, was very spooky horror show, surprisingly they held back from giving him pointed ears.

And it was like a drumbeat, as she got closer and closer, even looking out over Moat Cailin, the mist. Evil ahead!

The bodies in the yard! The mysterious servant, can she be trusted? Why doesn't the damsel in distress signal to her rescuer?

And then that last episode, the wedding with him looking like the devil, will anyone stop this?, and ... no.

This is bad, really bad. It would be laughable if it wasn't so damned offensive. A brutal rape, screaming in pain, horrible.

I forgot to answer, not French!

[JonisHenryTudor]

My complaint is that the rape was out of character for Ramsey. While he may be crazy, he's not an idiot. His position as Lord of Winterfell relies solely on fathering a healthy son on Sansa, and the more he smashes up her lady parts the less likely that will come to pass. So having Ramsey be gentle with Sansa on their wedding night would have created much more dramatic tension, and indeed would have been more cringe inducing, than the shock value of a rape, because you know he is just bsing and that at some point he is going to snap if she displeases him.

Also, Ramsey knows the political game they are playing, so he should be smart enough to realize that Sansa is no kennel-master's daughter but the only known living child of Eddard Stark, so brutalizing her in bed is not going to win him any loyalty in the north.

So not only was the rape unnecessary, but contrary to established character as well.

I get the impression that Ramsay is beginning to come unhinged. You?

[Dracosmith]

Maybe I have just seen and read too many medieval stories to be as impacted as others by this. It was their wedding night, sex is expected to happen (indeed, lawfully required for the marriage to be consumated).

It was unpleasant, sad and awful...but was it really rape?

[Hiram McDrogon]

If you have continuing disagreements with another poster, please take it to PM, or use the ignore function.

Thanks for the hard work, but I have what's probably a dumb question: where is this ignore function? I am totally failing to find it. Is that because search isn't currently enabled on the forum?

[Khal Boner]

There was the melodramatic setup, Will the Sacrificial Virgin be raped by The Devil? Or rescued in time? Stay tuned.

And the way it was filmed, was very spooky horror show, surprisingly they held back from giving him pointed ears.

And it was like a drumbeat. as she got closer and closer, even looking out over Moat Cailin, the mist. Evil ahead!

The bodies in the yard! The mysterious servant, can she be trusted? Why doesn't the damsel in distress signal to her rescuer?

And then that last episode, the wedding with him looking like the devil, will anyone stop this?, and ... no.

This is bad, really bad. It would be laughable if it wasn't so damned offensive. A brutal rape, screaming in pain, horrible.

In fairness this is the Boltons we are talking about. The betrayers of Robb, flayers of prisoners, hunters of humans. Roose, Ramsay and Locke are all psychopaths.