Critic's reaction to S5E6

[Saturno]

jeyne poole is an absolute nothing character. there was absolutely zero reason to turn her into a victim or anything for that matter.

I don't understand what are trying to say here. Are you saying that Jeyne Poole's arc was stupid in the books?

[jacksonbrowne]

Yeah we should have gotten Stoneheart. Much better than Sansa married to Ramsay.

Yes the season got great reviews last year and tons of hype and PR, so huge number of new viewers tuned in to season 5.

Just like every season more and more people have tuned in to the show.

But, unlike previous season, this year, the show didn't keep them. It's back now to 2013 levels.

Is it because the show is shit now - like you say now - or because it was shit already in 2014 - like you said in 2014? And what on earth made the viewers watch an obviously shit Stoneheartless show in 2014 and give it great reviews? Let me guess, HBO bought the reviews? So what happened this week? HBO ran out of money and only half the reviews are great? I mean, the show, according to Cas Stark, has been utter garbage, worse than living in North Korea shit for the some time now, so how were both the reviewers and viewers duped? You insinuated also on your 2014 post that the "show only" viewers are frankly stupid, is that it? And if the show only viewers happen to have read all the books and still don't think that "fuck that no stoneheart the show sucks" are they still stupid perhaps to the factor of not recognizing Michelle Fairley with a bit of corpsepaint? Just wondering.

[kissdbyfire]

Based on the reviews of this week, I'd say the answer is yes.

Even putting the Sansa issue aside, you saw universal criticism of the Sand Snakes, very snarky criticism. You finally saw some criticism of the poor logic the show is using in several of it's plotlines, like the Jamie mission, or like Littlefinger's plan or what's going on in King's Landing.

I have no illusion that the show is going to step it up enough in terms of plotting and continuity to cover this, so I expect that people will be more critical from here on out. And yeah, walk of shame is going to now get a very different kind of treatment after this Sansa stupidity.

Yeah, well... Let's hope so. Realistically, these problems were apparent from episode 1, and not a single one said anything other than praise the show. But what you said makes sense, people do get very caught up in the hype.

[Cas Stark]

Yeah, well... Let's hope so. Realistically, these problems were apparent from episode 1, and not a single one said anything other than praise the show. But what you said makes sense, people do get very caught up in the hype.

I don't see how anyone could have watched episodes 1-4 and come away really believing this would be the best season ever. That's impossible. You would come away in the best possible light, thinking that this season had some strong storylines but might suffer from pacing issues throughout and that the show was beginning to struggle with the material. So, the universal praise and fawning given to the show by critics can only be as a result of hype and groupthink.

[jacksonbrowne]

I don't see how anyone could have watched episodes 1-4 and come away really believing this would be the best season ever. That's impossible. You would come away in the best possible light, thinking that this season had some strong storylines but might suffer from pacing issues throughout and that the show was beginning to struggle with the material. So, the universal praise and fawning given to the show by critics can only be as a result of hype and groupthink.

Is it a long jump competition? Does every season have to jump 2 inches further to justify it's existance? Does every new season have to be "the best season ever"? And why do YOU care, you hate ALL of it anyway?

[Lord Damian]

Actually, Joffrey torturing the prostitute has been discussed quite a bit. He had just abused Sansa, but they added that scene. And they never showed the aftermath. Her name was Daisy.

I think she died, did she not?

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I think she died, did she not?

I don't remember seeing or hearing of her again. I may have to watch season 2 over again though.

[Saturno]

I'll just leave this here:

https://pawntoplayer.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/unbroken-unbent-unbroken-unbowed-unbowed-unbent/#comments

[DRS]

Awesome post

This guy nails it.

Unbroken, Unbent, Unbroken, Unbowed, Unbowed, Unbent…

A review of “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken,” the sixth episode of the fifth season of “Game of Thrones”

by Miodrag Zarković

[Jon-Michael Pearson]

This season is bad to many stories that dont make sense

However this story takes place in the middle age fantasy world and I am not saying rape is necessaray but it was part of the culture.

Braveheart had two close rape scenes in it (droit du seigneur ("right of the lord"), and then when William Wallace wife gets attacked by the solider.

I do not think she should be in WInterfall and the scene was not necessry but I not a beleiver in Sansa as this great and powerfull player in the Game of Thrones.

[Benjaario Starkharis]

The rape scene in the books was used as a tool to present 3 characters that already existed in a new light: Jeyne Poole as a victim, Theon Greyjoy as someone in a redemption path, and Ramsay Bolton in a even more twisted perspective. Jeyne Poole was pretty much a mechanical tool, a minor character, used to represent both Theon and Ramsay's conflict. This was solely her job and her reason to exist, first of all. After her contribuition to the plot she is not really relevant. .Sansa, on the other hand, is a major character. To force her into a minor character's place is bad enough, but to put in a place that needs traumatic experience that should drastically influence her own future, the future of the major character, is a much bigger problem.

You think the media wouldn't be even more outraged if D&D introduced a new character whose only reason to exist was to be raped to advance a male character's arc? That would only make things worse and an even bigger objectification of women.

[OldGimletEye]

I'm glad to see some media blowback. I think I'll paraphrase D & D here:"Was it exceedingly stupid to combine Jeyne Poole's character with Sansa Stark's? I think the question answers itself".

[Dofs]

To all the nice people who argue "Oooh, rape pisses people off only when it happens to Sansa and not a random character!"

Do you cry when you watch/read the news about some random person being murdered? Or do you just mumble "Damn, that was sad/cruel. Hope the one who did this gets coming to him."

Why do you think there was such an outrage when the Red Wedding happened, why did people think George was cruel for writing it? Do you think people would care if that was the opening scene of the first book, instead of happening in the third book?

If you still don't get it, I sincerely ask you to grow a brain. Sansa is a character we have followed since the first book. A lot of people sympathize and are understandably invested in her. Her story is not going this way in the books. The fact that the showrunners nonchalantly thought this was a good idea is a problem.

I'm glad there is this level of criticism.

This. There is a huge difference between someone dying in the news and someone you now and love dying. The former is an unfortunate and sad event, the latter is a tragedy. That's how people work - we care about our loved ones much, much more than we care about people that we don't know. Martin understands that. Never did he let a POV character, the character the reader is invested in be raped. Arya was never sexually assaulted during her Riverlands trip and in the world he created it seemed almost implausible. But he still didn't do it. The same way Sansa dodged the bullet every time, even though a couple of times she was really close to being raped. George knows he can't do it and that it would completely alienate his readers. George knows the line he can't cross.

And he also knows he can get away with much more things done to a secondary, unknown character than a to a primary one. He once told about how he was writing an episode, I think, for 'Beauty and the Beast", where a lead character made a car explode. And how he was told by producers to include a scene of a driver jumping out of the car and survive or people won't like the main character; and how he didn't like it. He didn't like it because he knew that the audience will not care about a car driver. He was a random unknown character. And it's the exact same reason why he got away with Jeyne Pool. Because she is a secondary character a reader don't care about. The scene with her comes out as increasingly disturbing and just disgusting. But not rage-inducing. Not 'I am not going to read this book anymore' inducing. Because she is not even a real character in the reader's mind about whom we care about and cheer for. She is a plot device.

And that's the reason why the most controversial scenes in the show are Jaime/Cersei rape scene and Ramsay/Sansa rape scene. It's not like these are the only rape scenes in the show. But these were the ones that infuriated the watchers the most. What was infuriating is that Cersei was raped and more importantly that it was Jaime who did it - a character many watchers and especially readers at that point are invested to and love. The same way it's infuriating that it was Sansa who was raped - a character we too are invested to and love. And what's more infuriating is that these scenes were totally unneeded.

GRRM sees this line of what he can do and what he can't. D&D unfortunately do not. After all they repeatedly tell that one of the main points of the show is that 'anyone can die' and apparently that terrible things happen to people. Well, it's not. And it's very sad that D&D think it is. They have no sense of what they can and can't get away with.

[Saturno]

You think the media wouldn't be even more outraged if D&D introduced a new character whose only reason to exist was to be raped to advance a male character's arc? That would only make things worse and an even bigger objectification of women.

Well, I really do not care for the media really. I think they are over sensitive to certain themes too close from their political schedules. But I disagree that it would only make things worse. Also it was not like they would create her from thin air, they would be adapting directly the character from the books, so even if there is a possibility for the media to explode in criticism it would bounce of D&D backs as they pretty much are just translating something to the screen. But again, I really doubt it would go this way.

[Saturno]

I would like to ask one thing: why the rant and repercussion topics are always blocked? The last one was blocked ONE DAY after the show's last episode. I'm not trying to accuse anyone, and I may be very wrong, but I'm under the impression that the critics are getting somesort of repression. There is an admin apologist for the show with a temper or something like that? what is the problem?

[Le Cygne]

Minor characters don't have the same narrative weight as main characters. Sansa Stark is a main character. It is a reasonable expectation that Sansa Stark will not assume The North Remember Lady's role in the narrative.

They didn't have to include Jeyne at all. It makes no sense, given the adaptation changes for the dynamics with the Boltons in the North. And it looks like Jon's narrative has been redirected, as well.

Also, there was no reason to go there with the book subplot at all. They seem to be just fine with deviating from the book story when it suits them. Just ask Sansa.

[RSasoiaf]

I have seen this and something I just need to adress once again is Danny!!!I see people talking about Danny being rapped.....sorry, dont want to sound offensive, but many americans seem to have been rapped and have issues with it. Then they see rappe everywhere.

Danny is written as having desire for her husband right from the 1st time she sees him. She is not against having sex with him. She is a virgin, she has fear, but she has also desire, wish to learn and explore her body. Actually, she wants to have sex with him and be his wife. She even wants to be more then his wife, she wants to know him, to have some relation with him. She wants to love him and have him love her. From what you could possibly get from a medieval wedding, this is pretty good.

Danny´s problems are with her body. She has issues during her initial time with the Dothraki. Not only with sex, she has issues with horseridding, with the food, with the customs, with the language. Everything is drainning her on a moral and physical level. Also, Drogo at first is abusive in the way he understands the relationship should work, from cultural perspective, which he does change as soon as she is able to better comunicate with him. So we dont even know how much he was aware of what was wrong.

And before people start saying that he should have noticed....

He probably noticed she had problems with horseridding also. Should he have dismissed her from that and let her walk or be carried around? Would she want that? I think not!

And hard as it sounds, it´s the same with sex. Both for Danny and for Drogo. It was a part of what was expected from them. A part both wanted to perform. That Danny was not feelling well would have been a weakness on her side and probably one she would not like to have discussed. Actually we know this because she would try and hide her pain as much as possible from Drogo. And she went for Doreah asking help to improve her sex with Drogo, not to end it.

Many people get it wrong in a way that they think she was being forced by Drogo. She was not! We do not know and maybe he would not have had sex with her if she had requested that. We just dont know.

Yes, she was the submissive side on that relationship (at the start), but we know from her that she was forcing herself into the relation and not the other way around.

Danny´s path was one of overcoming her limits and grow in strength and power, to get her ready to be the Mother of Dragons.

It was not a path of being rapped and falling for her rappist.

[RSasoiaf]

double post

[Saturno]

1. Minor characters don't have the same narrative weight as main characters. Sansa Stark is a main character. It is a reasonable expectation that Sansa Stark will not assume The North Remember Lady's role in the narrative.

2. They didn't have to include Jeyne at all. It makes no sense, given the adaptation changes for the dynamics with the Boltons in the North. And it looks like Jon's narrative has been redirected, as well.

1) Who said the best way is to go for the character with more "narrative weight"? It all depends of the narrative point. You don't need Sansa or Arya to be raped just to show how violent a smallfolk uprising can be when you can use Lolly. Do you really thing it would be better narratively to use one of the major characters in Lollys place? I don't think so. The weight of the character is irrelevant. What is not irrelevant is what one character's arc can do to another one when they are fused. I believe you would agree with me when I say that it would be very difficult to continue Arya story in smooth way if she temporarily replaced Lolly in the first season, right? I mean, being violently raped by a horde of men would surely influence her character in a way that it would not be possible for her to just slide back to her original arch, correct? It's the same with Sansa and Jeyne.

2) The point is, my friend, that with the actual scenario of the show, given the same adaptation changes you're considering, it just don't make any sense for the Boltons to have the need to marry with a Stark in the first place. There is not a single external force threatening them besides Roose verbally saying so in one single and rushed scene (which c'mon, is pretty weak hook in a graphic media). There is not a reason for the writers to arrange all this huge confusion BESIDES the executive's need for RAPE and CONTROVERSY and BEING EDGY.

[dannyk65]

Minor characters don't have the same narrative weight as main characters. Sansa Stark is a main character. It is a reasonable expectation that Sansa Stark will not assume The North Remember Lady's role in the narrative.

Also, there was no reason to go there with the book subplot at all. They seem to be just fine with deviating from the book story when it suits them. Just ask Sansa.

Who? Oh, Jeyne....gotcha! :P