Why Dorne Failed (hint: it's not the acting or writing)

[El Guapo]

2. ACTING: again I disagree with the op. Acting, especially acting by the Snakes, is a problem. Snakes are central to the Dorne plot, so why oh why hire actresses who can't emote? It's bad enough to listen to the revenge crap over and over again, but watching/hearing these three is infuriating.

Siddig is good. Siddig has probably gotten a total of ten lines. This is DORAN, people, so give him some lines. SHOW HIM. LET HIM TELL US ABOUT HIS PLOT, as he has one, surely?

It's asinine, from every point of view, and it makes me very annoyed. lol.

I thought Rosabel Laurenti-Sellers was actually very good in her scene last week. Keisha Castle Hughes, not so much. She has been pretty awful at this point. I don't think Jessica Henwick has said a line yet so she gets an incomplete for me.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Dorne is being set up as an enemy to Dany in the books. Without Quentyn and without fAegon, the only way to make Dany and Dorne enemy is the Queenmaker plot for the show. Now that Dany married a slaver and does not seem like coming soon, Doran will agree to proceed with Trystane-Myrcella marriage and at the same time, make use of the Sandsnakes to eliminate Tommen. When Dany comes, Trystane-Myrcella will be the couple that will fight her in the South. This way, there is no reason to cast Arianne.

The problem with this is that you're looking at Arianne in terms of her function or purpose for the story, more as a plot device than a fully fleshed character. And as the show proved with the Sand Snakes, plot devices don't work to anchor a storyline. You need proper characters for the audience to give a shit in the first place, and that's Arianne's role. Regardless of her ultimate plot function, she brings a human element and a compelling motivation to Dorne that the Sand Snakes simply lack.

[ADanceWithCats]

The problem with this is that you're looking at Arianne in terms of her function or purpose for the story, more as a plot device than a fully fleshed character. And as the show proved with the Sand Snakes, plot devices don't work to anchor a storyline. You need proper characters for the audience to give a shit in the first place, and that's Arianne's role. Regardless of her ultimate plot function, she brings a human element and a compelling motivation to Dorne that the Sand Snakes simply lack.

I think you put in words exactly why I hated Arianne in the books. She was just a plot device with large tits and a lack of brain as far as I was concerned.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think you put in words exactly why I hated Arianne in the books. She was just a plot device with large tits and a lack of brain as far as I was concerned.

Well, I guess we have a different notion of what constitutes a plot device. For me, that's someone like Gregor, Polliver, Balon, etc. They're characters who just do shit to advance the plot without a proper motivation and they have all the depth of a paper tissue. Arianne, in my opinion, doesn't fit in that category. She has believable (if convenient in sort of sitcom-y misunderstanding) reason for doing things, and there are many sides of her. Like, at first you just see her as a cliched sexpot, then as a kind of Cersei-Lite, then you realize she does have sympathy and empathy, she cares more about her birthright than she does about vengeance, and then she kind of wants to be queen but won't admit it to herself, etc.

I'm not even one of the fans of Dorne in this board, but I gotta admit that the girl's got depth.

[protar]

I think you put in words exactly why I hated Arianne in the books. She was just a plot device with large tits and a lack of brain as far as I was concerned.

As a big Arianne fan I think that's a very shallow way of looking at her. I think she is written so that initially she does just seem like a dumb, promiscuous party girl, but the point I think is that she is only like that because she believes that her father is setting up Quentyn to steal Dorne from her. She doesn't expect that she will amount to anything so she squanders her skills and goes into the game for the first time woefully unprepared. After her first failure she must wise up and become a true player of the game.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

I didn't like Dorne in the novels, so at least that translated in the adaptation process.

[Mingolla]

Its all about writing. They could write Sand Snakes better. They could write Arianne as bad as them if they included her. Though it is a weird decision to not include the main character of Dornish storyline. Just imagine If they adapted the Team Dragonstone same way as they adapted Dorne. If they would cut Stannis and than did not even let remaining characters (Davos and Mel) talk to each other till episode 9 (that is the first opportunity for Doran to talk to Sand Snakes).

To criticize acting of SS actresses is ignorant. Rosabell was great in her only real scene. Jessica did not had any chance to show her acting skills and Keisha got miserable lines during those two miserable scenes - no actress could make it work.

[jandslegate]

They've turned The Sand Snakes and Ellaria into Darkstar yet omitted Darkstar. This has caused a singularity dead center in the water gardens.

[King Zee]

My question is.

Having cut Aegon and Arriane and Quentyn exactly what part of Dorne is necessary for the greater plot?

Is it the crown Myrcella plot ? But isnt Myrcella going to be sent back to KL as in the books ? I'm waiting to see exactly what effect Dorne has to the greater story in the show.

[ADanceWithCats]

Like, at first you just see her as a cliched sexpot, then as a kind of Cersei-Lite, then you realize she does have sympathy and empathy, she cares more about her birthright than she does about vengeance, and then she kind of wants to be queen but won't admit it to herself, etc.

I'm not even one of the fans of Dorne in this board, but I gotta admit that the girl's got depth.

Fair enough, as far as I'm concerned, she was just a plot device to show that Doran is Awesome And You Should Trust Your Daddy. By herself, tits and idiocy and passivity. But I already said that. :)

Is it the crown Myrcella plot ? But isnt Myrcella going to be sent back to KL as in the books ? I'm waiting to see exactly what effect Dorne has to the greater story in the show.

Yeah, that's the most important question. There are so many possibilities what Doran's Master Plan is (and even if he has a master plan, and is not just a genuinely good person who just wants to let two kids be together).

[Reuben Stoneheart]

The problem with the Dorne plot in the show IS down to the writing, 100%.

It's been horrendous and the whole storyline doesn't make sense.

I agree with the poster who said that D&D clearly thought the audience loved Oberyn so much that we would love the whole Sand Snakes revenge plot. But not if it doesn't make any sense!

Shoddy, shoddy writing.

[YoungGriff89]

The problem with the Dorne plot in the show IS down to the writing, 100%.

It's been horrendous and the whole storyline doesn't make sense.

I agree with the poster who said that D&D clearly thought the audience loved Oberyn so much that we would love the whole Sand Snakes revenge plot. But not if it doesn't make any sense!

Shoddy, shoddy writing.

100% the writing I agree. The Dorne storyline in AFFC/ ADWD is made up of a lot of exposition and not necessarily a lot of action. On top of that it's only five chapters split between three characters. Two of those don't even appear in the show. The queen maker plot is a maximum of four scenes when translated to television even if you include every character. They didn't exactly set themselves up for success by not including Arianne, Arys, explaining Dornish laws of succession in the first place, and they really should have been in Dorne from the start of the season with a single character we could actually follow and connect to in some way.

[Denam_Pavel]

1: Doran moves from Water Gardens to Sunspear, meets with angry Sand Snake(s) along the way

3: Arys sneaks off for sexy time with Arianne. Arianne exposits her motivations.

5: Myrcella is stolen by Arianne, Arys, Darkstar, Sand Snake(s)

6: Areo stops them

7-9: Arianne is in cell

10: Fire and Blood

I think this can be translated too screen quite well. if anything the problem was they didn't have time for this much, let alone this and Jaime in the Riverlands.

Instead they took the pieces they already had Jaime, Bronn, Ellaria, Oberyn's popularity and tried to make the pieces fit and failed.

[ADanceWithCats]

1: Doran moves from Water Gardens to Sunspear, meets with angry Sand Snake(s) along the way

3: Arys sneaks off for sexy time with Arianne. Arianne exposits her motivations.

5: Myrcella is stolen by Arianne, Arys, Darkstar, Sand Snake(s)

6: Areo stops them

7-9: Arianne is in cell

10: Fire and Blood

Except, how would you fit this with the altered role for Trystane and Myrcella?

e: Once more - we don't have the most important piece of the puzzle for this plot, which is how the show intends to play out Dorne in the future. The rest of the plot choices, I think, stem from that one.

[Denam_Pavel]

Except, how would you fit this with the altered role for Trystane and Myrcella?

Not sure what you're referring too, nothing was altered for Trystane and Myrcella until they started writing and casting this season and went "you know which Dornish character really seemed unneccesary? Arianne."

[Dragon Seed]

The simplest word I can come up with to describe the Dornish scenes and this season in general is

CHEAP!!!! D&D are going backwards with the quality of the product instead of forward, which they're very capable of doing. LAZY is another word that comes to mind. Seems like they're relying on sex to generate ratings. Think about how often they inject sex into the show. Loras and his lover, Tommon & Marg, the Red Woman & Jon Snow, Sansa's rape, on and on. But you know what, D&D know that all they have to do is have a big battle scene at the end and one major cliff hanger and all bad writing will be forgotten. Shame on us for tuning in. Our repeated viewing enables them to continue producing a CHEAP product.

[King Zee]

Pending any great Revelation from the next 3 episodes. This what I'd have done.

Make Myrcella our viewpoint in Dorne. The audience knows who she is.

Scene 1--Cute time with Myrcella and Trstan - Transition to them being watched by Doran, Ellaria and Areo. They are in mourning and commiserating . Cue Obara barging in and threatening to kill Myrcella and Doran ordering her out . Ellaria runs after Obara with Obara saying --You gave Oberyn much happiness and so I will always care for you, but stay out of my way.

Scene-2 The Sand Snakes plotting to kill Myrcella. You notice the Sand snakes have not spoken to to each other in the show at all ? Nym tells Obara that since she made so much noise she will be under watch now. and that Tyene should take the lead. Tyene will pretend to back her mother Ellaria but really set a trap.

Scene 3- Jamie and Bronn as per show

Scene 4. Ellaria telling Myrcella and Trystan to be careful . Trystan being all proud and brave and not really believing Ellaria. Myrcella asking how they could want to kill her after she's been their guest for years.

Scene 5 Tyene sends Myrcella an invitation to brunch or something implying it came from her mother Ellaria.

Scene 6. Bronn and Jamie show up but dont even get into the Palace. Captured by Areo who says they are making him late

Scene 7. Myrcella shows up only to be attacked by the Sand Snakes. Snakes are intercepted by Areo. Ellaria tells Tyene how disappointed she is in her.

[ADanceWithCats]

Not sure what you're referring too, nothing was altered for Trystane and Myrcella until they started writing and casting this season and went "you know which Dornish character really seemed unneccesary? Arianne."

Dorne in the show has to serve the plot of the show. We've speculated on the many possibilities - the two most interesting ones are: Trystane is Aegon; or, Trystane is not Aegon, but Dorne will support Myrcella next year.

So, let's assume that Doran will want to do the Queenmaker this year. How would you square this with the book plot?

[Denam_Pavel]

Dorne in the show has to serve the plot of the show. We've speculated on the many possibilities - the two most interesting ones are: Trystane is Aegon; or, Trystane is not Aegon, but Dorne will support Myrcella next year.

So, let's assume that Doran will want to do the Queenmaker this year. How would you square this with the book plot?

Oh well, if that's the case I would have Doran do his Queenmaker plot. There's no earthly reason to wait till episode 9/10.

And if Trystane is Aegon (extremely unlikely), then that wouldn't change anything. He can appear in the episode Myrcella is kidnapped in rather then the episode Myrcella was failed to be kidnapped in.

[nastydream]

I think you put in words exactly why I hated Arianne in the books. She was just a plot device with large tits and a lack of brain as far as I was concerned.

What? I thought she was a pretty fleshed out character.Her motives for doing what she did are understandable.

Anyway not to derail the thread,you can read the arriane re-read thread.