MMA & Boxing (v16)- Get it together, man.

[Davrum]

Well first of all I don't think any kind of vast majority says holds that Fedor was greater than GSP. It seems pretty split. And I think Jon Jones has faced consistently tougher competition than GSP and Aldo. Fedor's and Jones' greatness isn't really based on spectacle either way, especially not Jones'. 

 

When I say GSP and Aldo have consistently faced tougher opponents I'm talking about stuff like the fact that GSP and Aldo have 9 defenses and Jones 8. Stuff like the fact that neither GSP nor Aldo have title reigns padded out with joke contenders like Vitor and Chael - neither of whom had fought a LHW opponent for half a decade when they fought Jones and both of whom had dropped to MW after being spanked into losing runs (4-5 and 3-5 respectively) at LHW. GSP had Nick Diaz off a loss of course, but Nick's record at WW shat on the records of both Vitor and Chael at LHW. Aldo had Frankie off 2 losses, but he was a 3-defense champion from a higher weight class less than 2 years earlier, so again a far more legit contender than either Vitor or Chael.

 

Bones also had a Shogun who was 3-2, a Lyoto who was 1-2 (and even that win being was half-retired Randy), and a Rampage "Please Don't Wrestle Me" Jackson on a mere 2-fight win streak. GSP and Aldo rarely fought opponents on anything less than a 3-fight win streak and beat former champions who had more impressive title reigns than anyone Jones has beaten yet.

 

Jon Jones is comfortably my favourite fighter to watch in any combat sport, but as yet his "greatness" can only be considered above the likes of Aldo's and GSP's if one swallows the UFC hype machine's bollocks "He beat five former champions in a row!" line context-free, as if it has far more meaning than it does in reality.

[Davrum]

Speaking of Frankie vs Aldo, funnily enough I re-watched Frankie vs Bendo II, Frankie's last fight before Aldo, just a few weeks ago and, as I did at the time, thought Frankie was absolutely robbed. Checking MMA Decisions to see if I was crazy, not one single media scorer gave the fight to Bendo (7/9 for Frankie, 2/9 for Draw). Not only that, less than 10% of fans gave it to Bendo. Frankie may have gotten lucky off the judges in his first BJ fight, but the second Bendo fight was pure robbery. When Aldo fought him Frankie should still have been LW champion but for the incompetency of two men with pencils and official scorecards.

 

Also watched Aldo vs Frankie again in the lead up to the Conor fight. Aldo was off his longest injury lay-off and expected to show significant ring-rust, but for the first two rounds Aldo made Frankie - one of the all-time greats in the UFC - look like he didn't deserve to be sharing the Octagon with him. Of course Frankie did make it more of a contest after that - he is one of the all-time greats in the UFC after all, and Aldo was off a long lay-off - but the lasting impression on his way to a 49-46, 49-46, 48-47 victory over one of the all-time greats in the UFC was that technically speaking Aldo was on another level.

[Davrum]

Man alive, its like Aldo is the only fighter to ever get injured the way people are going on. I'd rather see Conor versus uninjured Mendes and against Aldo gibbled with a fucked up rib. Yeah, I feel for you UFC. You put lots of advertising bucks and effort into promoting that fight. But, come on. You have to be ready for these developments by now. It literally happens CONSTANTLY in this sport.

 

LITERALLY. Aldo wasn't even the first UFC champion of 2015 to pull out of a title fight with a rib injury. Weidman (the true pull-out king) withdrew from the Vitor fight with a bung rib in January. Aldo wasn't the second either. TJ pulled out of the Barao rematch with a bung rib in April. Aldo was the third bung rib UFC champion of the year. It's what champions do. Smart ones anyway.

 

Was so cute how het up the Conorphiles got about it though. So much wailing and gnashing and more conspiracy theories than conspiracytheory.net.

[Gears of the Beast]

Jon Jones is comfortably my favourite fighter to watch in any combat sport, but as yet his "greatness" can only be considered above the likes of Aldo's and GSP's if one swallows the UFC hype machine's bollocks "He beat five former champions in a row!" line context-free, as if it has far more meaning than it does in reality.

This is straight bullshit, even if you accept that Aldo and GSP fought slightly harder competition (which I don't), my original point was that greatness is to a large extent commensurate with your competition, not wholly contingent upon it. I think we can agree that the standard of competition faced by Aldo, Jones and GSP is roughly comparable (although it can't be forgotten that GSP clearly lost to Hendricks). With that in mind you could make a strong case for Jones based on what he has done in the cage -his athletic brilliance and his fight IQ- without listening to a word the UFC says.

 

It's not a very substantive argument though because 'greatness' is a pretty nebulous term. I think Jon Jones is the greatest fighter, to me there are so many more variables in what constitutes 'greatness' than the few you have listed, honestly most of yours seem pretty arbitrary. I'll admit though that I probably have a bias towards Jones, he's my favourite fighter and I'll probably defend him no matter what. 

 

 

 

Speaking of Frankie vs Aldo, funnily enough I re-watched Frankie vs Bendo II, Frankie's last fight before Aldo, just a few weeks ago and, as I did at the time, thought Frankie was absolutely robbed. Checking MMA Decisions to see if I was crazy, not one single media scorer gave the fight to Bendo (7/9 for Frankie, 2/9 for Draw). Not only that, less than 10% of fans gave it to Bendo. Frankie may have gotten lucky off the judges in his first BJ fight, but the second Bendo fight was pure robbery. When Aldo fought him Frankie should still have been LW champion but for the incompetency of two men with pencils and official scorecards.

 

 

This is why I was kinda happy that Cerrone got the decision over Bendo. I'm pretty sure Bendo won that fight but it felt like justice after all the BS decisions wins Bendo has got. 

 

edit: speaking of Aldo vs McCgregor, it's officially set for Dec 12. War Aldo. 

[Davrum]

This is straight bullshit, even if you accept that Aldo and GSP fought slightly harder competition (which I don't), my original point was that greatness is to a large extent commensurate with your competition, not wholly contingent upon it. I think we can agree that the standard of competition faced by Aldo, Jones and GSP is roughly comparable (although it can't be forgotten that GSP clearly lost to Hendricks). With that in mind you could make a strong case for Jones based on what he has done in the cage -his athletic brilliance and his fight IQ- without listening to a word the UFC says.

 

It's not a very substantive argument though because 'greatness' is a pretty nebulous term. I think Jon Jones is the greatest fighter, to me there are so many more variables in what constitutes 'greatness' than the few you have listed, honestly most of yours seem pretty arbitrary. I'll admit though that I probably have a bias towards Jones, he's my favourite fighter and I'll probably defend him no matter what. 

 

Not straight bullshit. Not even bendy or crooked bullshit. And not even close to arbitrary. Just fact after unfortunate fact showing that our boy - as impressive as he's been - has still not reached the level of Aldo and GSP. Those two haven't fought slightly harder competition, they've fought significantly harder competition. I've loved the 205lb division over the years but in all honesty it has always flattered to deceive when it comes to the depth of its talent pool, which is pretty much why half of Jon's title fights have conveniently been against somewhat half-assed contenders. Competition breeds brilliance and 170 and 145 not only have more than twice as many competitors, the average level of those competitors is higher than LHW because they lose far fewer elite level athletes to the big money sports.

 

But if you do want to engage in some bullshittery and arbitrariness (and why wouldn't we, it's why the gods invented message boards) we can talk about athletic brilliance and fight IQ. About how our boy, at 6'4", is famously unable to dunk a basketball while Aldo is freakishly fast, strong and agile, to the point that as a non-wrestler he's developed even better takedown accuracy than Jones, and meanwhile Georges, another non-wrestler who developed superior takedown accuracy to Jones, is famous for being a freakin' gymnast. In terms of smarts GSP and Aldo constantly bring near-perfect gameplans and on the odd occasion a gameplan is successfully countered they adjust strategy mid-round. Jones is clever, obviously, but to suggest he has higher fight IQ than GSP and Aldo is to tip too far toward gooey-eyed fanboyism for me.

 

The main reason Jones is my favourite is actually that he fights kind of dumb sometimes. Striking with Machida when the smart game was to wrestle him. Boxing with Gus and standing in the pocket with Glover when there were clearly better options. Bones lets machismo and emotion take over and fights to prove points. You want to say his chin is untested? He'll stand where he's going to get hit and show you he can take it instead of using his god-given range advantage to its fullest. And yet he still wins. That's what makes it so thrilling to watch him, and why I'd pay twice as much for a Bones PPV than anyone else's. GSP and Aldo fight smart and they get called boring for it. Jon Jones has never had that problem.

 

I'm with you that GSP lost to Hendricks though. Fuck MMA judging.

 

 

 

This is why I was kinda happy that Cerrone got the decision over Bendo. I'm pretty sure Bendo won that fight but it felt like justice after all the BS decisions wins Bendo has got. 

 

Yeah, me too. Nothing against old Toothpick McGhee but I had Gil, Punk and Edgar all beating him. The Gil fight I could see either way to be honest, but Punk and Frankie were flat-out robbed. Fuck MMA judging again.

[Gears of the Beast]

But if you do want to engage in some bullshittery and arbitrariness (and why wouldn't we, it's why the gods invented message boards) we can talk about athletic brilliance and fight IQ. About how our boy, at 6'4", is famously unable to dunk a basketball while Aldo is freakishly fast, strong and agile, to the point that as a non-wrestler he's developed even better takedown accuracy than Jones, and meanwhile Georges, another non-wrestler who developed superior takedown accuracy to Jones, is famous for being a freakin' gymnast. In terms of smarts GSP and Aldo constantly bring near-perfect gameplans and on the odd occasion a gameplan is successfully countered they adjust strategy mid-round. Jones is clever, obviously, but to suggest he has higher fight IQ than GSP and Aldo is to tip too far toward gooey-eyed fanboyism for me.

Nope I don't. Especially if it means dragging up meaningless stats like td accuracy. You mean to tell me Aldo has landed more takedowns in his 18 attempts than Jones has in his 64 attempts? I don't care. I'm happy to say that we disagree and move on. 

 

 

The main reason Jones is my favourite is actually that he fights kind of dumb sometimes. Striking with Machida when the smart game was to wrestle him. Boxing with Gus and standing in the pocket with Glover when there were clearly better options. Bones lets machismo and emotion take over and fights to prove points. You want to say his chin is untested? He'll stand where he's going to get hit and show you he can take it instead of using his god-given range advantage to its fullest. And yet he still wins. That's what makes it so thrilling to watch him, and why I'd pay twice as much for a Bones PPV than anyone else's. GSP and Aldo fight smart and they get called boring for it. Jon Jones has never had that problem.

Jones doesn't do this out of stupidity or emotion. To suggest that Jon is too emotional is absurd. He plays into his opponents strengths because he knows he can. It's a demonstration of his skill as a complete mixed martial artist, it's actually one of the main reasons I think he's the P4P best. I guess you're right to an extent that Jones does it to prove a point and the point has been proven, he's the best mixed martial artist in the world. 

 

And speaking of Aldo, that Irish guy has somehow opened as a big favourite, I don't usually bet but this is just free money. I'm getting 2.46 for Aldo which means they think Rockhold has a better a chance of Chris Weidman than Aldo does of beating McCgregor. Which is just insane. 

[Calibandar]

Questions:

 

1) I am collecting some best of dvd's of the UFC years. What are some standout moments you guys recall from say 2008 till now?

Some fights that I absolutely need to have?

2) What's going to happen to Jon Jones? Will he return at some point, or is he done forever? He's still got many years ahead of him in terms of being in his prime.

[Ken Stone]

 

 

Not straight bullshit. Not even bendy or crooked bullshit. And not even close to arbitrary. Just fact after unfortunate fact showing that our boy - as impressive as he's been - has still not reached the level of Aldo and GSP. Those two haven't fought slightly harder competition, they've fought significantly harder competition. I've loved the 205lb division over the years but in all honesty it has always flattered to deceive when it comes to the depth of its talent pool, which is pretty much why half of Jon's title fights have conveniently been against somewhat half-assed contenders. Competition breeds brilliance and 170 and 145 not only have more than twice as many competitors, the average level of those competitors is higher than LHW because they lose far fewer elite level athletes to the big money sports.

 

But if you do want to engage in some bullshittery and arbitrariness (and why wouldn't we, it's why the gods invented message boards) we can talk about athletic brilliance and fight IQ. About how our boy, at 6'4", is famously unable to dunk a basketball while Aldo is freakishly fast, strong and agile, to the point that as a non-wrestler he's developed even better takedown accuracy than Jones, and meanwhile Georges, another non-wrestler who developed superior takedown accuracy to Jones, is famous for being a freakin' gymnast. In terms of smarts GSP and Aldo constantly bring near-perfect gameplans and on the odd occasion a gameplan is successfully countered they adjust strategy mid-round. Jones is clever, obviously, but to suggest he has higher fight IQ than GSP and Aldo is to tip too far toward gooey-eyed fanboyism for me.

 

The main reason Jones is my favourite is actually that he fights kind of dumb sometimes. Striking with Machida when the smart game was to wrestle him. Boxing with Gus and standing in the pocket with Glover when there were clearly better options. Bones lets machismo and emotion take over and fights to prove points. You want to say his chin is untested? He'll stand where he's going to get hit and show you he can take it instead of using his god-given range advantage to its fullest. And yet he still wins. That's what makes it so thrilling to watch him, and why I'd pay twice as much for a Bones PPV than anyone else's. GSP and Aldo fight smart and they get called boring for it. Jon Jones has never had that problem.

 

 

 

I thought it was a pretty well known fact that the lower weight classes in MMA are much deeper, with more skilled and athletic fighters. Hell it's that way in all combat sports. Stick and ball sports tend to pull away the most athletic big guys. 

[Ramsay B.]

So Werdum and Cain are gonna have a rematch with the date TBD(likely in 2016, of course) and Dos Anjos is gonna fight Cowboy Cerrone, also a rematch, for the title on Dec.19th. It's Cerrone's first championship fight.

Also, Cotto-Alvarez to fight in November at a catch weight of 155. All pretty good stuff.

[Gears of the Beast]

So Werdum and Cain are gonna have a rematch with the date TBD(likely in 2016, of course) and Dos Anjos is gonna fight Cowboy Cerrone, also a rematch, for the title on Dec.19th. It's Cerrone's first championship fight.

Also, Cotto-Alvarez to fight in November at a catch weight of 155. All pretty good stuff.

I don't think Werdum vs Cain is good stuff at all. This rematch is bullshit. Cain got beaten badly by Werdum, how does he deserve a rematch? Why is Cain always fighting rematches!? Look at his last 5 fights before Werdum: JDS/Silva/JDS/Silva/JDS. This fight doesn't make any sense, the division finally gets fresh after years after Cain beating the same 2 people and now we have to see Cain get a completely undeserved rematch? Why?????

 

edit: Weidman vs Rockhold will be co-main to Aldo vs McCgregor at UFC 194. Fuck that's a good PPV, and only 2 fights have been announced. 

[GSP]

My only explanation for the Velasquez rematch is that there are always going to be people who believe that the combination of the altitude and Cain's long layoff beat him more than Werdum did. If Werdum beats the brakes of Cain in the rematch, when those two issues aren't in play, Werdum solidifies his standings as champ right of the hop. A lot of people thought Cain would hold that belt a long time.

 

I'm not a fan of the rematch, but that basically summarises the arguments for the rematch I've seen bandied about.

[Gears of the Beast]

It's a great argument for a rematch at some stage. It doesn't justify an immediate rematch, especially given the state of the HW division, 

[polishgenius]

Cotto-Alvarez should be a great fight. I'd be pretty neutral normally about who I want to win but if Canelo wins he'll eventually fight GGG, quite possibly next Cinco de Mayo, whereas Cotto will more likely vacate the middleweight title he's got, so I'm definitely swinging Canelo's way.

[Ramsay B.]

I'm a Cain fan so I am biased about the rematch. I also can't really argue with Gears because they do need some fresh fights for the HW belt so I see his point. I wasn't able to see their first fight either so I do have to watch it at some point.

Cotto-Alvarez is pretty intriguing but I do think youth prevails and Canelo will pull it out. Pretty excited for it either way.

[Calibandar]

 

 

edit: Weidman vs Rockhold will be co-main to Aldo vs McCgregor at UFC 194. Fuck that's a good PPV, and only 2 fights have been announced. 

 

Wow. I'm already looking forward to that. Not even sure which of the two I'm more keen to see.

Rockhold vs Weidman could be great as well.

[Davrum]

Nope I don't. Especially if it means dragging up meaningless stats like td accuracy. You mean to tell me Aldo has landed more takedowns in his 18 attempts than Jones has in his 64 attempts? I don't care. I'm happy to say that we disagree and move on. 

 

What fun would it be if we didn't drag up a few stats?

 

72% TD accuracy for Jose Aldo (in one of the deepest, strongest divisions in the sport)

52% TD accuracy for Jon Jones (in one of the weakest, shallowest divisions in the sport)

 

 

 

Jones doesn't do this out of stupidity or emotion. To suggest that Jon is too emotional is absurd. He plays into his opponents strengths because he knows he can. It's a demonstration of his skill as a complete mixed martial artist, it's actually one of the main reasons I think he's the P4P best. I guess you're right to an extent that Jones does it to prove a point and the point has been proven, he's the best mixed martial artist in the world. 

 

Not stupidity, but also not necessarily the highest intelligence. I've seen more evidence that GSP and Aldo have higher fight IQ than Jones does than vice versa. Intentionally standing where you'll get cracked just so you can prove to critics you have that chin they've been questioning isn't a sign of anything approaching genius, that's for sure. It does make him massively compelling and entertaining though.

[Davrum]

I thought it was a pretty well known fact that the lower weight classes in MMA are much deeper, with more skilled and athletic fighters. Hell it's that way in all combat sports. Stick and ball sports tend to pull away the most athletic big guys. 

 

Not as well known as you'd think. The spectacle of big dudes whaling on each other is an intoxicating one.

[Davrum]

It's a great argument for a rematch at some stage. It doesn't justify an immediate rematch, especially given the state of the HW division, 

 

Now that we absolutely can agree on. Giving Cain the immediate rematch is a huge bummer.

[Davrum]

Questions:

 

1) I am collecting some best of dvd's of the UFC years. What are some standout moments you guys recall from say 2008 till now?

Some fights that I absolutely need to have?

2) What's going to happen to Jon Jones? Will he return at some point, or is he done forever? He's still got many years ahead of him in terms of being in his prime.

 

1)

Hunt/Silva

Hunt/Nelson

Velasquez/Lesnar

Werdum/Velasquez

Dillashaw/Barao 1

Aldo/Mendes 1

Aldo/Mendes 2

Aldo/Edgar

Aldo/Faber (WEC)

Aldo/Brown (WEC)

Aldo/Swanson (WEC)

Edgar/Maynard 2

Edgar/Maynard 3

Pettis/Henderson 1 (WEC)

Rousey/Tate 2

Rousey/Carmouche

GSP/Hendricks

Hendricks/Lawler 1

Lawler/MacDonald

Silva/Sonnen 1

Silva/Griffin

Silva/Belfort

Silva/Weidman 1

Silva/Weidman 2

Machida/Evans

Rua/Machida 1

Jones/Rua

Jones/Gustaffson

 

I don't know, I'm bound to be missing some key fights, but off the top of my head those are probably a good start.

 

 

2)

My guess leans about 94% toward "he'll be back". I feel like he's 94% an unstoppable force.

[Calibandar]

1)
Hunt/Silva
Hunt/Nelson
Velasquez/Lesnar
Werdum/Velasquez
Dillashaw/Barao 1
Aldo/Mendes 1
Aldo/Mendes 2
Aldo/Edgar
Aldo/Faber (WEC)
Aldo/Brown (WEC)
Aldo/Swanson (WEC)
Edgar/Maynard 2
Edgar/Maynard 3
Pettis/Henderson 1 (WEC)
Rousey/Tate 2
Rousey/Carmouche
GSP/Hendricks
Hendricks/Lawler 1
Lawler/MacDonald
Silva/Sonnen 1
Silva/Griffin
Silva/Belfort
Silva/Weidman 1
Silva/Weidman 2
Machida/Evans
Rua/Machida 1
Jones/Rua
Jones/Gustaffson
 
I don't know, I'm bound to be missing some key fights, but off the top of my head those are probably a good start.

One that I just saw on the best of 2013 dvd was "Diego Sanchez vs Melendez".
That was nuts.