R+L=J v.143

[BearQueen87]

I also agree with BQ87.

The world is still spinning on its axis, I see. :)

Fully agree that Martin has given multiple clues about the world being out of balance, the Ice and Fire title, Jon having both kinds of blood, all of that. Absolutely.

But he's also been telling us again and again that relying on blood (royal or magic) for power doesn't work. Relying on magic and/or magical transformation ALWAYS goes wrong--Beric is our most sunny example, and calling it "sunny" is just mean of me. Relying on prophesy, again--always bad.

But who is to that is what Jon is going to do? Like UL says...we don't know the exact steps to get to the endgame, just that the endgame is most likely a restoration of balance in the world and that somehow Jon plays a part (something I don't think anyone would deny--well almost anyone) I don't think that necessarily entails Jon performing blood magic and chasing prophecy or using his blood for power. I think it's just as likely that Jon will sort of stumble into the answer and that it won't involve any of those three things--blood, magic, prophecy but that the reason why Jon can do "the thing" is because of his blood. That's why I just call it "the thing..."

[Sly Wren]

The world is still spinning on its axis, I see. :)

But who is to that is what Jon is going to do? Like UL says...we don't know the exact steps to get to the endgame, just that the endgame is most likely a restoration of balance in the world and that somehow Jon plays a part (something I don't think anyone would deny--well almost anyone) I don't think that necessarily entails Jon performing blood magic and chasing prophecy or using his blood for power. I think it's just as likely that Jon will sort of stumble into the answer and that it won't involve any of those three things--blood, magic, prophecy but that the reason why Jon can do "the thing" is because of his blood. That's why I just call it "the thing..."

Yes--that is the big fabulous questions that keeps us all reading. And Martin is being uncooperative in alleviating my impatience.

But I do think that the "relying on magic is bad" trope is at least a clue. Same with the the fact that Jon is changing things--not through magic, but through mindset, being willing to adapt. If/when he "stumbles onto something," I really think his human and bastard qualities of being willing to adapt and compromise will be the key to his being able to accept a solution. Even a magical solution (which would make sense).

We don't know what the Last Hero did. Obviously, it's broken down. We do know Jon has some talent for out-of-the box thinking. He has access to potential information (dreams, warging Ghost, weirwoods via Bran, studying the wights). And we know that the last solution involved at least looking for the Children. Am assuming Jon needs to learn about how the Children are involved in the Long Night--and come up with a better counter than the Last Hero did. Again, that really could be magical--totally open to that.

But Jon himself doesn't need "magical transformation" to learn this. Jon's already willing to insist on studying the wights. He's pushing in that direction already--knowledge and information. Just thinking if there's a magical solution (which I really hope there is), this is his way to it, not blood of dragon or wolf.

[BearQueen87]

Yes--that is the big fabulous questions that keeps us all reading. And Martin is being uncooperative in alleviating my impatience.

But I do think that the "relying on magic is bad" trope is at least a clue. Same with the the fact that Jon is changing things--not through magic, but through mindset, being willing to adapt. If/when he "stumbles onto something," I really think his human and bastard qualities of being willing to adapt and compromise will be the key to his being able to accept a solution. Even a magical solution (which would make sense).

We don't know what the Last Hero did. Obviously, it's broken down. We do know Jon has some talent for out-of-the box thinking. He has access to potential information (dreams, warging Ghost, weirwoods via Bran, studying the wights). And we know that the last solution involved at least looking for the Children. Am assuming Jon needs to learn about how the Children are involved in the Long Night--and come up with a better counter than the Last Hero did. Again, that really could be magical--totally open to that.

But Jon himself doesn't need "magical transformation" to learn this. Jon's already willing to insist on studying the wights. He's pushing in that direction already--knowledge and information. Just thinking if there's a magical solution (which I really hope there is), this is his way to it, not blood of dragon or wolf.

As someone who tends to believe that the LH did something far more mundane (marriage) than what Old Nan's famously interrupted fairy tale-like story leads us to believe...I could totally see Jon doing something that isn't as classically heroic as, say, taking a Ring to Mount Doom or Rand battling/banishing Shai'tain.(I also really don't think Jon is the LH come again or is the one playing out the LH story but the point I'm making stands)

Also, as far as magical transformation goes, whether or not he needs it might not matter. He's going to get it, if he is in fact living inside Ghost Puppy and needs to be returned to his body (cue Addicted to Snow telling me this will not happen) through some sort of magical event.

[Sly Wren]

As someone who tends to believe that the LH did something far more mundane (marriage) than what Old Nan's famously interrupted fairy tale-like story leads us to believe...I could totally see Jon doing something that isn't as classically heroic as, say, taking a Ring to Mount Doom or Rand battling/banishing Shai'tain.(I also really don't think Jon is the LH come again or is the one playing out the LH story but the point I'm making stands)

Also, as far as magical transformation goes, whether or not he needs it might not matter. He's going to get it, if he is in fact living inside Ghost Puppy and needs to be returned to his body (cue Addicted to Snow telling me this will not happen) through some sort of magical event.

Oh, yes--Jon repeating Last Hero--given that Martin likes to skew his parallels, seems very unlikely. Just going on the smidgens of information Martin has been willing to give us. Something happened to stop the Long Night--some "thing" will need to stop this one--most likely not the same thing (apologies for my shameless plagiarism of your previous posts).

Am open to the idea that Last Hero and Night's King could be the same person--not fully sold--but again, so little info that it's at least possible. But am really hoping the solution is less "making a deal" with Children/Others and more "undermining the source of Long Night and Walkers," the magics underpinning those. And for that, he'll need info.

Agree on the possibility of into Ghost and then out--the Starks all have some magic. My personal issue is with the "fire magic transformation releasing the dragon" arguments. Just can't get myself to accept that. And am thinking maybe that's why show changed some of Mel's plot . . . I don't know how to make spoiler tags work, so stopping now.

But the idea of gaining info/insight via his time in Ghost--liking that. Magic returning him to his body--maybe. Again--always goes so very wrong.

[MtnLion]

We know that Brandon's companions were all killed, but do we know for certainty that the fathers were killed, too (only those who were still alive, of course)?

But the raven thing is completely irrelevant for the actual point - that it doesn't make all that much sense why we should assume that Ethan was in the black cells, spoke with Rhaegar, and became the guy who led Eddard to the tower for, well, reasons. I'm not opposed to the general idea that somebody must have told Ned where the tower was - that seems to be a reasonable assumption. I just find the idea that it was Ethan not very convincing.

All, except Ethan Glover, who was taken prisoner, then next appears as one of Ned' companions. This is another case of inventing a story, one cannot say I would like it if without some proof. If my aunt had had balls, she would have been my uncle. Please don't make inventions. Ethan was prisoner during war, there is no other reference to him being anywhere else. It is possible that Ethan needed to guide Ned to the tower, and I am not sure the how or why of the situation, but I do find it remarkable that Ethan would be part of that group. It is remarkable about Howland being a part, too. Everybody wants to invent how magically Howland became some super warrior during the war, but I believe that the story will be much simpler than that. Howland forced Ned to allow him to come along out of some sense of duty towards Lyanna. Even though Howland hasn't suddenly become a horseman or swordsman. We have no indication that he did, or that Ethan was released by Aerys.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

I have nothing against the dragons -- they are just a tool to be used for good or evil depending on the rider. I just have a feeling (not sure, but seems logical) that magic needs to be eliminated. Dragons are almost certainly magical creatures -- so they must go. Warging also must go. Resurrections must go. Greenseeing must go. Whatever other magic is being done in the world must go. Again, I am not at all confident in this prediction -- it just seems to be what might be necessary to return balance to the world.

SW--

First of all, if you want to do a spoiler box, start with [ spoiler ] the type your text and end with [ /spoiler ], but take out the spaces between the brackets and the words (I had to include the spaces to avoid creating a spoiler box).

As to your point about Jon and the power of magic, once again, I agree with BQ87. :cool4: Jon will not consciously perform some magic spell to make everything right in the world. Jon simply IS the right magical mix to be able to bind a dragon and warg a direwolf and do whatever other things he needs to be able to do to win the war. As we have said, we don't know exactly what that will be -- and it really would be impossible to predict because GRRM is not likely to write something that anyone could possibly predict. But the broad outlines seem to be that Jon is the linchpin. He will need help -- he is not a "lone" hero -- help from Dany and Tyrion and Bran and Arya and Sansa and others. Most likely, many characters will play a critical role in the endgame. But this series is a fantasy series, with magic and dragons and warging and skinchanging and greenseeing. These magical elements -- and maybe others -- will be part of the endgame as well. GRRM would be letting down his readers if the most exciting elements of the story are left out of the big battle. So I agree that Jon won't attempt to rely on magic -- but using his unique "magical" abilities likely will be important. And if I am right that it all ends in the elimination of magic -- then any reliance on magic that results in the end of magic seems like a likely exception to the use of magic going badly.

[Sly Wren]

First of all, if you want to do a spoiler box, start with [ spoiler ] the type your text and end with [ /spoiler ], but take out the spaces between the brackets and the words (I had to include the spaces to avoid creating a spoiler box).

As to your point about Jon and the power of magic, once again, I agree with BQ87. :cool4: Jon will not consciously perform some magic spell to make everything right in the world. Jon simply IS the right magical mix to be able to bind a dragon and warg a direwolf and do whatever other things he needs to be able to do to win the war. As we have said, we don't know exactly what that will be -- and it really would be impossible to predict because GRRM is not likely to write something that anyone could possibly predict. But the broad outlines seem to be that Jon is the linchpin. He will need help -- he is not a "lone" hero -- help from Dany and Tyrion and Bran and Arya and Sansa and others. Most likely, many characters will play a critical role in the endgame. But this series is a fantasy series, with magic and dragons and warging and skinchanging and greenseeing. These magical elements -- and maybe others -- will be part of the endgame as well. GRRM would be letting down his readers if the most exciting elements of the story are left out of the big battle. So I agree that Jon won't attempt to rely on magic -- but using his unique "magical" abilities likely will be important. And if I am right that it all ends in the elimination of magic -- then any reliance on magic that results in the end of magic seems like a likely exception to the use of magic going badly.

1. Thanks!

2. Agree that the magical elements will play roles in how this all ends--fantasy, all of that.

3. But it's also a POV psychological novel--which, as you noted, likely undermines the idea of one person solving the whole things. Agree with Jon as potential lynchpin. But in all those POVs--the same warning: magic not the answer, dragons, warging, prophesy--not the answer. But as readers, Martin sets us up to keep looking at the prophesies trying to figure them out. To figure out how warging and dragons might somehow work for Jon and Jon alone when they are so perilous for everyone else.

As such, you could very well be right--Jon is the magic one-and-only combination that can make it all work to stop the magics--with help from others, but his blood combo makes him the lynchpin. But Martin's POVs just keep working against that. Against the belief that the blood and prophesies lead to a solution against the magic of the Long Night. Warning us again and again against believing in the one magic person who can combine it all. Everyone in this novel who embraces that mindset gets burned--sometimes literally. I just really think there's something to the warning.

Martin is writing fantasy while warning us against the dangers of relying on fantasy tropes. Am thus thinking that the idea of one magical person being a lynchpin because he's magical is likely to get us as readers burned. But fully admit I could be wrong.

[BearQueen87]

Oh, yes--Jon repeating Last Hero--given that Martin likes to skew his parallels, seems very unlikely. Just going on the smidgens of information Martin has been willing to give us. Something happened to stop the Long Night--some "thing" will need to stop this one--most likely not the same thing (apologies for my shameless plagiarism of your previous posts).

Am open to the idea that Last Hero and Night's King could be the same person--not fully sold--but again, so little info that it's at least possible. But am really hoping the solution is less "making a deal" with Children/Others and more "undermining the source of Long Night and Walkers," the magics underpinning those. And for that, he'll need info.

Agree on the possibility of into Ghost and then out--the Starks all have some magic. My personal issue is with the "fire magic transformation releasing the dragon" arguments. Just can't get myself to accept that. And am thinking maybe that's why show changed some of Mel's plot . . . I don't know how to make spoiler tags work, so stopping now.

But the idea of gaining info/insight via his time in Ghost--liking that. Magic returning him to his body--maybe. Again--always goes so very wrong.

Feel free to co-opt "a thing." I feel it's pretty accurate to the fact that really none of us know anything (like Jon!) about how this ends.

WRT the show

yeaaaah. I don't know. Before S5 I though Jon would be brought back by the combined forced of Mel and Val--fire and ice--and now I have no idea how that play out because it could still be Mel and Val but the show will go a different route by having Mel go to WF with Stannis and Val not appearing at all. This is normally when I would implore GRRM to write faster...

LV--

I have nothing against the dragons -- they are just a tool to be used for good or evil depending on the rider. I just have a feeling (not sure, but seems logical) that magic needs to be eliminated. Dragons are almost certainly magical creatures -- so they must go. Warging also must go. Resurrections must go. Greenseeing must go. Whatever other magic is being done in the world must go. Again, I am not at all confident in this prediction -- it just seems to be what might be necessary to return balance to the world.

Eliminated or unified? I go back and forth a lot. If there is "fire magic" and there is "ice magic" then maybe what heals the world is the reunification back into just "magic." I don't know if magic is necessarily bad, but rather that the division of magic and it being co-opted for specific fire and ice practices is bad. And if it's the reunification then that speaks to why it's Jon who does "the thing." But I may just be thinking really hard.

[Ygrain]

I'm still waiting for those quotes supporting Lyanna's stay at Starfall. I guess I might even have one:

"A falling star blazed briefly, evoking the old grief. Promise me. He could almost smell the scent of the sea and pale blue roses."

...

Pity that GRRM never wrote it, right?

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm still waiting for those quotes supporting Lyanna's stay at Starfall. I guess I might even have one:

"A falling star blazed briefly, evoking the old grief. Promise me. He could almost smell the scent of the sea and pale blue roses."

...

Pity that GRRM never wrote it, right?

Now you are just taunting them (not that they don't deserve it).

[Sly Wren]

Feel free to co-opt "a thing." I feel it's pretty accurate to the fact that really none of us know anything (like Jon!) about how this ends.

Eliminated or unified? I go back and forth a lot. If there is "fire magic" and there is "ice magic" then maybe what heals the world is the reunification back into just "magic." I don't know if magic is necessarily bad, but rather that the division of magic and it being co-opted for specific fire and ice practices is bad. And if it's the reunification then that speaks to why it's Jon who does "the thing." But I may just be thinking really hard.

1. It's as good a word as any right now.

2. Agree with you on Val and Mel--but then I think that change bolsters my theory, so, if the change changes back, I'll have to eat my words. As have often done before.

3. To the unify vs. eliminate point. The reunification would be ideal--a unified magic, end of oppositions, end of co-opting magics --all would be ideal. But given the dire straights of the impending zombie invasion, plus the fact that ideal solutions get killed in the crib in Martin's world (sometimes literally), am thinking eliminated may be the only option. Which would be bittersweet--so much potential for power and knowledge, but had to be undermined (how exactly I'm not sure--back to "thing") to save humanity. Could fit with bittersweet rather well--at least in part.

[Ser Creighton]

Double post

[Ser Creighton]

As someone who tends to believe that the LH did something far more mundane (marriage) than what Old Nan's famously interrupted fairy tale-like story leads us to believe...I could totally see Jon doing something that isn't as classically heroic as, say, taking a Ring to Mount Doom or Rand battling/banishing Shai'tain.(I also really don't think Jon is the LH come again or is the one playing out the LH story but the point I'm making stands)

Also, as far as magical transformation goes, whether or not he needs it might not matter. He's going to get it, if he is in fact living inside Ghost Puppy and needs to be returned to his body (cue Addicted to Snow telling me this will not happen) through some sort of magical event.

I mixed feelings on magic and what Jon will do. Weather magic stays or goes is neither here or there for me. Because that is the Game over stage, and it's done at that point. But with magic we know it is going to be building up and getting stronger and more evident, Martin has said as much. But historically in the books, it seems to always peek, then vanish, then come again, then peek then vanish. It is cyclical in the nature of the series, so even if it goes, is it really gone for good or left ambiguous? You can eliminate the practice of magic to an extent but nothing in the books has really hinted at what would get rid of it, or even what creates it. Meteor Rocks? Blood? Can you get rid of all the rocks and blood? Probably not.

As for magic it does not seem to be limited to specific blood we see this with all the Red Priests. We could have these magic cores like in the Lands of always winter and Asshai. But if we don't go to Asshai I am not sure how you destroy it. You could say the dragons but Magic was in Essos before them. If Magic is tied to blood then you have to remove the blood and that is not going to happen. So with magic staying or going I am in the how much does it matter by the time it could happen camp.

I will say it seems clearer than ever that Valyrians were born to fight the Others, they are the natural reaction to the Ice Demons. When it comes to the idea of balance I sometimes get on the fence, I mean I wrote one of the original unity of opposition theories, so I am a fan of the idea, and can relate it to magic and weather, but not people. Martin has never looked at people that way and the series is about them. Sometimes I think the magic and all that is just one of the trappings of the world and it's just a character piece that happens to have magic in it and reactions to said magic.

As for Jon, and what I call the smack back, as in smack em back into their bodies, it has precedent in Dany and Bran and Jon already. Basically the wakening moment, Wake the Dragon, Fly, etc... Jon has been smacked into Ghost, he has been smacked awake. Going to know in less that a year either way, you know Dany woke the Dragons, and I think Bran woke the Stark wargs or was involved the process or trigger. Not really sure there, but he was the first one out of the Stark kids. I am not sure anyone can warg a dragon, as there already seems to be a process for Dragon bonding, and I have not seen anything magical get warged yet. You wolves are flesh and blood, Dragons are fire made flesh but still mostly fire, can you warg fire? He does on the other hand meet the prerequisite for Dragon bonding. Kind of redundant to need two things to ride a dragon. Be a nice trick, but not really one he needs as he has the other connection and that connection would seem to fit. I am guessing if you are going to have magic Targaryen blood, Dragon bonding would be a rather large bonus to having it. You skip that aspect and it's like calling Steel, Valyrian steel, yet without the properties of Valyrian steel it's Valyrian Steel in name only. So you would think if you are going with the magical aspects of Jon's blood that it would pertain to both aspects and not just the Stark side.

Fans and Maesters question dragon bonding, but Maesters question all magic, if you ask someone at the Citadel about Wargs, Giants and Others you will likely get the same response about Snarks and Grumpkins. At least until the glass candles started burning and rumors of Dragons returning and chances are in world they would still question everything else until they see it. That seems to be the MO of the Citadel and people often use that and Nettles to question dragon Bonding. In the books people were bringing the dragons food all the time in the pit yet nobody was riding them. And while there may be multiple factors, there seems to be no question that Targaryens rode dragons and a Targaryen woke the dragons, and Valyrians made Valyrian steel, and Bloodraven with all his Hocus pocus, and Valyria, I mean very magical beings in the books, prophetic as well with the Targaryens. I don't think we will ever see rules for it, because that goes against what Martin believes, but we do seem to have certain magical relationships. It's vague, he keeps you guessing, but there seems to be something there with first men blood and Valyrian blood. Which brings you full circle, to how do you end something that the author will never fully explain, and does not fully want you to understand?

Getting back to Jon waking, it would probably need a new aspect, Dany gave us Dragons, and Bran gave us Warging so what will Jon give us if anything? What aspect are we missing? Interesting enough each waking is followed by a journey of discovery. In the case of Dany and Bran they have been much longer journeys, they are still on them and trying to understand them. In the case of Jon that is very late in the game, book 6? Maybe 7. Even Dany and Bran don't fully understand everything yet and they have been on the road for years so to speak. I tend think you are probably right in that it may be subtle, at least the impact of what he does will be, I don't see Martin writing in a last minute Deus Ex plot device that fixes everything as the man tends to try and give everything depth, the guy even tries to give food depth. I tend to stick with my own theory on the subject, something to point out. In book you recall Tyrions quote about the missing male Sphinx, her King not being a good sign. They worked a version on that into the show as well. In the current history of the books it does not seem like a good idea for the Targaryens to be apart. It's not good for them to be alone right now, I know one basic way Jon really needs Dany, but how does Dany need Jon? Well there is only one real road that goes down. Show seems to be playing that up as well lately. Anyway whatever happens with Jon it should lead him in a direction, that is what happened with Dany and Bran.

[WeaselPie]

The key point in determining canon is that it must be from George R.R. Martin. Any content that cannot be determined as having originated with or been expressly regarded as canon by Martin cannot in itself be considered canon.

[BearQueen87]

[snippity snip snip]

My reactions are scattered.

1. Your first paragraph, to me, speaks to why I lean more toward reunification of magical forces instead of magical destruction. I don't know that you can fully get rid of magic because it has been a basic operating principle in Universeos probably since time immemorial, it's just that humans figured out a way to harness it, and in doing so--probably for selfish reasons--broke a thing.

2. Asshai and the Shadow: if there was a breaking, then my money is on the Shadow being the point of origin. I don't know if the Heart of Winter is somehow connected (though Queen Alysanne once pointed out in the Bran Re-read project that the Shadow and HoW are on exact opposite points of Plaentos...?) because the HoW always felt like more of a giant death metaphor to me. I suppose I could read it as "death leaking into the world" and Jon stops that but...that doesn't feel very GRRM? I don't know. I'm rambling at this point so I'll move on.

3. I sorta like the idea that Dany gave us dragons, Bran gave us warging and Jon will give us something else. Just have no idea as to what--though, going with the balance idea, it could be that Jon gives us first Dragon-Warging.

4. Is it Story Time now?

The key point in determining canon is that it must be from George R.R. Martin. Any content that cannot be determined as having originated with or been expressly regarded as canon by Martin cannot in itself be considered canon.

And while I think this is certainly valid, I also think it's far more complicated than that. We know the App and World Book were written in conjunction with GRRM but not entirely written by him. So, looking at the TOJ, maybe he didn't answer the question "where was Lyanna found" for the app...or maybe he did. We cannot definitely say one way or the other but that's where text proofs from ASOIAF come in. And, IMO, they point to Lyanna being at the TOJ.

[Lord Varys]

ML,

I don't know your aunt, but she could have been your uncle even with balls - you know, if you have an open mind about these things and all.

Is it possible that you don't actually care about additional information revealed in future novels/other sources? You tend to decide what canon is on your own - as if you could do that in a meaningful sense. Yes, as of yet, we only know that Ethan Glover was imprisoned by Aerys and then later showed up as Ned's companion. But can we conclude from that that Aerys definitely had him in custody/the black cells throughout the whole war, and that he was only freed after the Sack? No, we can't.

You show your usual MO of spinning yourself a tale - not necessarily a bad tale - and then refusing to even entertain even a different possibility despite the fact that you can't really be certain that you are right. Did I assert that I know what happened to Ethan Glover during the war? No. I made suggestions and speculated what could have happened while pointing out the flaws I see with your idea of Ethan accompanying Ned as his guide to the tower. That simply makes little sense. Perhaps Ned was also good friends with Ethan and thus allowed him to come, or he did not spent the whole war in a black cell but in more comfortable environment as a hostage (although I don't consider that very likely).

And since you have mentioned Howland:

I'm with you there. There is no reason to assume that Howland is a special warrior or super skinchanger or something like that. Ned would have chosen his companions for loyalty and friendship, not fighting skills. After all, Ned couldn't have known that he would find three Kingsguard at the tower in advance, no? And he certainly didn't intend to slaughter them, either, or else he would have indeed brought more men and better fighters.

UL,

oh, I don't expect that at all. Magic is on the rise again, and this is not necessarily a bad thing. What is interesting about George's series is that magic is actually coming back and not going away (like it TLotR). The traditional Reed oath to the Starks - including 'by ice and fire' - also suggests that these two are basic elements of certain types of magic and not necessarily twisted or evil. Only certain forms might be bad or problematic - most prominently, of course, the spell that created the Others and the spells used to cause the Long Night.

I imagine that the freak seasons have a singular causation going back to the Others (or their creation). I don't think this is an 'ice and fire' thing in the sense that the fire and ice magic fought each other or something like that. The long summers may actually have been a side effect of the victory over the Others during the War for the Dawn and the strength of fire magic in the west first embodied by Valyria and then later only by the Targaryen dragons (who then lived in Westeros, much closer to the Wall, and may have had an even stronger effect). Talk is that winters grow colder and longer since the last dragon died.

I imagine the chain of events goes like that: Normal seasons > Long Night (essentially a generation-long winter and night) > return of light and warmth in the known freakish way.

It could also be that the freak season were the result of how the War for the Dawn ended - say, if the Last Hero didn't win but was forced to make a deal/reach an understanding with the Others they may have decided that there would be times in which a lengthy period of cold would engulf the world to ensure that the Others could continue their life in the far north - after all, perhaps shorter winters would have made their existence impossible. Or the fire magic that was used against the Others (and other magic as well) did simply not succeed to reverse the spell that created the Long Night. Instead, all the Last Hero and his allies could do was to create a season-changing counter spell that enlarged the periods of heat and warmth in the same or a similar way in which the Others tried to create an eternal winter. Eternal winter vs. eternal summer resulted in the known freak seasons which could only be uphold on the fire side as long as there were dragons in Westeros/the world - when the last dragon died, the Others resurfaced and began making their plans (if they are effectively immortal they can take their time).

If the Others are defeated and the spell(s) reversed everything could go back to normal (that is, to how things were before the Long Night - a natural climate). But neither ice nor fire magic doesn't have to go for that. And certainly not skinchangers, greenseers, bloodmages, shadowbinders, and their ilk. Those types of magic don't seem to have anything to do with fire and ice magic.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

You might be right. I am really not that good at predicting endings to stories like these. I am sure GRRM has it all worked out in a way that will be satisfying. I think it will involve bringing "balance" back to the world, but I admit that I am not sure what that would mean.

[MtnLion]

Is it possible that you don't actually care about additional information revealed in future novels/other sources? You tend to decide what canon is on your own - as if you could do that in a meaningful sense. Yes, as of yet, we only know that Ethan Glover was imprisoned by Aerys and then later showed up as Ned's companion. But can we conclude from that that Aerys definitely had him in custody/the black cells throughout the whole war, and that he was only freed after the Sack? No, we can't.

You show your usual MO of spinning yourself a tale - not necessarily a bad tale - and then refusing to even entertain even a different possibility despite the fact that you can't really be certain that you are right. Did I assert that I know what happened to Ethan Glover during the war? No. I made suggestions and speculated what could have happened while pointing out the flaws I see with your idea of Ethan accompanying Ned as his guide to the tower. That simply makes little sense. Perhaps Ned was also good friends with Ethan and thus allowed him to come, or he did not spent the whole war in a black cell but in more comfortable environment as a hostage (although I don't consider that very likely).

And since you have mentioned Howland:

I'm with you there. There is no reason to assume that Howland is a special warrior or super skinchanger or something like that. Ned would have chosen his companions for loyalty and friendship, not fighting skills. After all, Ned couldn't have known that he would find three Kingsguard at the tower in advance, no? And he certainly didn't intend to slaughter them, either, or else he would have indeed brought more men and better fighters.

No, I care about what is revealed in the future, but I leave it in the capable hands of GRRM. I take it that you are conceding the we know Ethan was arrested by Aerys, and that there is no indication, none whatsoever, that he was released prior to the sack of King's Landing. That being the case, it is highly suspicious that Ethan was a member of Ned's party. Again, it seems likely that he was a member because he had special information that needed to be given while en route to the tower. Something required his presence, when it certainly seems that he should have been sent home from King's Landing. No, Aerys is not going to worry about anyone's comfort. Just review what he did to Rickard and Brandon. Then again, you haven't mentioned how you would know that there was any other prison than the Black Cells. ;)

[SFDanny]

No, I care about what is revealed in the future, but I leave it in the capable hands of GRRM. I take it that you are conceding the we know Ethan was arrested by Aerys, and that there is no indication, none whatsoever, that he was released prior to the sack of King's Landing. That being the case, it is highly suspicious that Ethan was a member of Ned's party. Again, it seems likely that he was a member because he had special information that needed to be given while en route to the tower. Something required his presence, when it certainly seems that he should have been sent home from King's Landing. No, Aerys is not going to worry about anyone's comfort. Just review what he did to Rickard and Brandon. Then again, you haven't mentioned how you would know that there was any other prison than the Black Cells. ;)

I noble sentiment if you didn't ignore it two sentences later. It is not Martin hands that crafts the special knowledge Ethan supposedly has, but yours. Why Rhaegar or Rhaegar loyalists would confide this information to Ethan is something you seem to glide over as it's not a major problem in your theory. It is. As to why Ethan is there in the party with Ned, a much simpler explanation is on hand in that Ned needs men of unquestioned loyalty for this journey. He doesn't know exactly what he will find at the end, and if certain fears are realized he doesn't want a man with him who would place his loyalty to Robert over his loyalty to Ned. As to what Aerys worries about it is one of the great mysteries the books. The wanderings of his paranoid mind and why he seems to think what he does is mostly unknown in its source, so sticking with what we know he thinks is probably the safest course. Lastly we know there are other cells than the black cells because we are told of them by Longwaters. Where Ethan was kept is not known at this time.

[Lord Varys]

ML,

do you read the novels? Remember Varys' speech at the end of ASoS about the four different prison levels of the Red Keep? And he wasn't even counting the tower cell then in which Brienne was kept.

You don't know that Ethan went with Ned because he had special knowledge. You don't know what Ethan did during the war or what happened to him. Nothing is 'highly suspicious there', either. Perhaps Ethan wanted to accompany Ned, and he allowed it, end of story. Perhaps he felt guilt that he could not prevent Brandon from rushing to KL, and wanted now Ned to help save Lyanna?

You are just making stuff up and present it as if it was the only possible way to interpret it.

I guess I can even understand you to a degree - there are things I don't want to read in those books (and if Shireen is going to be burned in either books or show I'm not sure I can continue watching/reading) - but in regards to theories and stuff the point of discussing things for me is to look at everything from every possible (and reasonable) angle I can come up with so that both discussing and reading will be fun. Trying to cook up one particular version of particular theory on the heritage of a certain character and then defending that version of the theory with virtually everything you have is a rather strange behaviour.

This Ethan Glover thing perfectly exemplifies your MO in that regard.