Jon Flow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Facebookless Man, What? Of course they are comparable. Unless of course you really think that people thought that the women WERE actually witches... instead of what we know to be true... these women were often victims of their accusers and their trials were a way for the men to remove them from society without responding to their allegations. And for real... Olenna DID essentially laugh in the High Sparrow's face... and like most fanatics.... he didn't care a whit. But let me indulge you for a moment.... I feel the conversation would go like this: Olenna: This is poppy-cock.... I can produce six squires who know Loras' birthmark.High Septon: Well I should like to speak to them in private to confirm. (Two weeks of torture in the black cells later) High Septon: We now have seven young men who will testify to being buggered by the depraved Ser Loras.The real mistake you are making is the foolish notion that the accused will be judged by a jury of their peers. It will be even worse than Tyrion's show trial because as I understand it, the sole arbiter will be the High Sparrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I misunderstood where you were going with that argument.If you mean the HS doesn't actually believe in his own accusation, then I guess conflating that with most accusations of witchery is fair enough. I don't think that is how the HS is being portrayed though, books or show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Flow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Facebookless, No... my contention is that the High Sparrow doesn't care about due process because he believes he is doing the gods' will. That is where the comparison is drawn... This is essentially a witch hunt with no actual due-process. Qyburn said it himself, "Faith is the death of Reason." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Facebookless Man, What? Of course they are comparable. Unless of course you really think that people thought that the women WERE actually witches... instead of what we know to be true... these women were often victims of their accusers and their trials were a way for the men to remove them from society without responding to their allegations. And for real... Olenna DID essentially laugh in the High Sparrow's face... and like most fanatics.... he didn't care a whit. No. It's not the same. Loras is a knight. He has squires and Olyvar has been his squire. Squires dress the knights they care for. Also, being a noble this means Loras has gotten servants since he was a child who have dressed and undressed him. And besides that, he has shared time with troops, probably sharing tents and even bathing next to many men. So, in conclusion, everybody has seen his birthmark. The accusing of the witches is not just "evil men killing womeeeen!". Let's not make this a discussion about that because it's not the same. And using it as a saving card is a weak trick to play in this argument. Their evidence, even if idiotic, had bases for them. I dunno why people have this oddly notion that medieval people were all a bunch of idiots. Let's not mix up being uneducated or ignorant with being stupid. Even the marks they could have found in people were meant to be a type of mark that they recognised as "suspicious" for whatever reason. Here, we're talking about a simple birthmark that everybody and their mothers has seen and a guy who claims he has seen intimately. Anyone with a brain would simply say "well, the boy Olyvar has been his squire. He's lying". And considering Margaery is the Queen, she can order him arrested and interrogated until he speaks the truth or the truth they wanted him to say, exactly what happened to the Blue Bard. Also, even if Olyvar has been insisting on saying he had sex with Loras, there was no way to prove it. He's a nobody. Loras is the brother of the Queen, a Queen that has all the Reach backing her up. The HS is not that much of an idiot, specially knowing that the Tyrells already cut all of KL resources and made them starve. This kind of silly evidences only works when it's obvious someone ones to have other accused. That's why people shut. But this is not the case because Marg and Olenna probably don't want him accused. They should have spoken aloud and considering their positions, they were meant to be believed. In the show, Marg is the Queen, not Cersei. The HS would want HER favour. Which happens in the book because he's setting her home as there is no evidence. The only way she can lose her trial and die is because someone (probably Varys) wants her gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Facebookless, No... my contention is that the High Sparrow doesn't care about due process because he believes he is doing the gods' will. That is where the comparison is drawn... This is essentially a witch hunt with no actual due-process. Qyburn said it himself, "Faith is the death of Reason."Book HS changes his mind when it turns out the evidence against Marg was fabricated.It's hard to believe no one on the GoT crew noticed how fucking retarded the whole thing was... then again it's not like any of the TV critics or show gapers noticed. Maybe since Loras and Marg are both guilty as charged in the show, the charges are purposefully made dodgy to provide them an out? Maybe those people are just morons.Either way the QoT's character was shortchanged, and your interpretation doesn't hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 OT rant: what happened to sweet beautiful Harry Lloyd from the sidebar? HE MADE ME HAPPY!! /OT rant.Harry Lloyd always makes me happy. LOLOL That's funny, I think it was just yesterday that I kept wondering.......how LONG that advert would run? I wasn't complaining, just couldn't believe it was still there. Hey........should we still hope for a bit of Dream/HallucinationViserys coming to visit Dany out in The Dothraki Sea? I'm not sure what to wish for with this mess of a show.I really would love it if he was, but I do t want to be disappointed if he isn't :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 The topic of Loras' butt has been already debated ad nauseam in threads from previous episodes. This is the thread for ranting, not discussion of this subject or any other subject. Also, let's not turn this into a "all religions are X or Y!". That's not the point GRRM tries to make despite HBO and D&D know only how to work in black and white. The HS has more layers than just "evil fanatic!!" and it's pointless to discuss his motivations considering that's exactly how the writers of the show have portrayed him. Now, let's continue with the rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Flow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Jon Con, I understood you at first but you kinda lost me at the end. I will submit to you that Ignorant and Uneducated is practically the same as Stupid. Hell, show me a REALLY smart guy who has never read or studied anything. But you are setting up straw men. Here... I will make it very simple. The comparison is valid because in both cases there is no rule of law... there is no Magna Carta.... there is no actual burden of proof to meet. Therefore.... all you guys screaming about how circumstantial the evidence is, realize that yes... the evidence is weak and suspect... but in a world of uneducated and feverently religious pleabs the High Sparrow doesn't need iron clad evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySoftheart Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Also, even though we're not supposed to discuss other sites here (I think), I want to bring your attention to two simple articles from our beloved Dornish fans. This one, without comment (expect maybe that I don't believe the N. lords were indifferent to FArya's being brutalized. They kinda said that one of their motivations were the tears of Ned Stark's girl). And this one, about Jaime and his relationship with Tyrion. But let's focus on Jaime for now (Tyrion has a lot of spotlight already and it's making me sick). I can't, for the love of any old god or new, understand why the fuck they messed him up so badly. The only reason I find is they didn't want competition to Tyrion's holiness :dunno: Because, in the books something is very clear about Jaime. Jaime has been, all of his life, the one who had a thing for "cripples bastards and broken things". Not Tyrion. Tyrion did it as a way to assert himself. In the same way some people do charity so others would see how holy they are. "Yes, I'm cheating on my wife, I beat my children... but I donate hundreds to the poor!". Jaime never saw Tyrion as a dwarf but as his brother. Since he was a baby. Him being his brother was enough. And it doesn't even end there. Jaime is definitely a very sensitive guy. That's a trope GRRM plays well. We don't have this oversweet and cheesy romantic knight. We have tough guys who, inside, prove that they are more than their armour and sword but are credible. Jaime is like this. Stannis is like this (come on, the guy is very very sensitive and caring). Jaime has been, since he was a kid, a softy. And that's something that Cersei has abused. Tyrion is not a softy. He's what he could have been had he been born tall and "normal". He would be using his "pity" or "compassion" to make himself apart from his dad, but he wouldn't be actually a good person. Jaime is. That's the tragedy of being Jaime: he hasn't been allowed to be a nice person, a husband, a father, anything. :bowdown: I love this post! It reminds me of why I love Jaime :D I just wanted to add that I do think compassion is "easier" for Jaime in some ways because he is not constantly struggling for his basic rights as a human being, the way that Tyrion and Cersei are forced to do because of their disability/gender, and I think there is also a part of both of them that resents that Jaime threw away so easily what they both so desperately want (Casterly Rock, power!) and consider him foolish for that. I also think they both do love Jaime but ... in some ways they love him for what he does for them (Cersei, obviously, but also, Tyrion loves him because Jaime is the only immediate family member who was ever kind to him.) It's all complicated and screwed up and that's what makes the Lannisters so interesting (I think the showrunners might like them because they're hot blonds, though :P) Just to bring this back to Tyrion (sorry!) for a minute - I have the feeling that in the books Tyrion cares for people (aside from Jaime and Tysha - and even in Tysha's case, it's more that she was the symbol of his being loved for himself than an actual person) as more of an abstraction than as individuals and his life is based around trying to win Tywin's approval, so it's no wonder to me that he has a book-long collapse of self because he no longer has this monster he has battled his whole life to battle against (he's like Captain Ahab if he'd killed that whale after all) and some of why I don't actively hate Tyrion after his DwD shenanigans is because I think he is really floundering around trying to find out who Tyrion *is* without being Tyrion Lannister, son of the mighty Tywin. He's killed the boy Tyrion, the one who wanted his father's love/approval above all things even as he professed to scorn them, and now he's becoming the man who ... may do anything, really? All this is missing from the show, where he's just having "a sad" for a few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Harry Lloyd always makes me happy. He makes us happy: http://i.imgur.com/jUAM5ga.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Flow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 JonCon, All religions are based on faith rather than reason. That is something no serious minded person can argue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight in Motley Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 ...I gave up on getting caught up 50 pages back. As for the High Sparrow...I do expect there to be some hidden hypocrisy to the show character and pretty much expect it to be his own sexual urges. Perhaps that is even what Littlefinger meant when he told Olenna about introducing her to a handsome young man. We've already had the opportunity for Olenna to use the Tyrell's position of power to both bribe and threaten the HS, neither of which I think should have even been mentioned because the QoT isn't new to this game. Truth won't even work, because in the show Margarine and Loras are guilty of the crime they are accused of. All that is left is for her to hit him in the face with piety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Jon Con, I understood you at first but you kinda lost me at the end. I will submit to you that Ignorant and Uneducated is practically the same as Stupid. We are not supposed to engage in personal conversations but I'm just letting you know that I'm leaving this discussion there because you're argument is exactly the one many classist racist people use to dish the native population of my country and it really really makes me mad. Like, "what? they're protesting we're mining his lands? How idiot! What about the progress! Of course, they never went to college!" So, yeah, leaving it there. Also, good for you that you are not ignorant or uneducated at all, and you know it all. Really, good luck with that. -sent to ignore- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Flow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 "We are not supposed to engage in personal conversations" "you're argument is exactly the one many classist racist people use" "Also, good for you that you are not ignorant or uneducated at all, and you know it all." Wow! Usually it takes people more than a poorly constructed paragraph before they start directly contradicting themselves. That's Impressive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Just to bring this back to Tyrion (sorry!) for a minute - I have the feeling that in the books Tyrion cares for people (aside from Jaime and Tysha - and even in Tysha's case, it's more that she was the symbol of his being loved for himself than an actual person) as more of an abstraction than as individuals and his life is based around trying to win Tywin's approval, so it's no wonder to me that he has a book-long collapse of self because he no longer has this monster he has battled his whole life to battle against (he's like Captain Ahab if he'd killed that whale after all) and some of why I don't actively hate Tyrion after his DwD shenanigans is because I think he is really floundering around trying to find out who Tyrion *is* without being Tyrion Lannister, son of the mighty Tywin. He's killed the boy Tyrion, the one who wanted his father's love/approval above all things even as he professed to scorn them, and now he's becoming the man who ... may do anything, really? All this is missing from the show, where he's just having "a sad" for a few weeks. As I see it, the problem with Tyrion is acceptance of the bad and good of his life. It's also the realisation that he has been the one responsible of his own doom, not his father or Jaime. Yes, he has endured abuse, but how he has responded to that? Not well. At the end of aSoS, he has killed Tywin and Joffrey has been murdered. At first sight, we could say he's free of them. Yet, by meeting Aegon and JonCon, he keeps reliving everything despite neither of them cause any big harm to him. And he respond to them in the say way he responded to Tywin and Joffrey: he wanted to poison Griff and messed up with Aegon's head. Why? Because he hated them. Once, during a conference, someone told us that the things we lose our patience about with our children are the things we don't like about ourselves or others. In my case, I cannot deny that what really puts me in a rage is when my child acts like his dad (who I would gladly deliver to the Sorrows). In Tyrion's case, these things remind him of what he has turned due to Joff and Tywin. Because, really, the only reason Tyrion didn't poison Griff was because he didn't find the chance. So, it's not like Tywin is the only responsible of his miserable life. Tywin is gone dead and Tyrion is still a little monster. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Oh well. Sorry guys. So much for giving people the benefit of doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordredDayne Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Do we really have to go through this dozens of times every thread? I'm starting to feel like Ran's post should be pinned to the top of every page. The topic of the thread is discussing things you disliked about the episode. It is not a place to throw insults at one another or to act as if he normal rules of the forum do not apply. Discussion of why people disliked something is permitted, but remember the topic at hand -- this is not a debate thread, it's a discussion thread specifically about episode details or events that posters disliked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Jon Con, I understood you at first but you kinda lost me at the end. I will submit to you that Ignorant and Uneducated is practically the same as Stupid. Hell, show me a REALLY smart guy who has never read or studied anything. You seem very confused about the basic concepts such as "intelligence", so here, let me help you: http://learningdisabilities.about.com/od/glossar1/g/whatisIQ.htm http://psychology.about.com/od/gindex/g/general-intelligence.htm Since you're clearly lacking the basic knowledge about the terms you're using, i.e. you have obvious gaps in your education, you should be really glad to know that intelligence and education/knowledge are not the same thing at all. JonCon, All religions are based on faith rather than reason. That's essentially the same kind of argument as: "But it's a fantasy show! It has dragons! So, why would anything in it have to make sense?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 He makes us happy: http://i.imgur.com/jUAM5ga.gif:wub: awwwwww....But seriously, I think Harry Lloyd was fantastic as Viserys. He portrayed the character perfectly.Ahh, for the good old days of Season 1, where the biggest problems were a lack of budget and too much sexposition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 :wub: awwwwww....But seriously, I think Harry Lloyd was fantastic as Viserys. He portrayed the character perfectly.Ahh, for the good old days of Season 1, where the biggest problems were a lack of budget and too much sexposition Sexploitation? I pine for the days of getting logical background information from the bathtub. Fuck. Put somebody in the bathtub right now so we can understand why Tyrion and Dany forgot about the Martells as her best shot at an alliance, why the free folk forgot that fire kills wights and all the rest of the gaping plot holes and silly storylines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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