[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVIII - DeReekerization

[rosehustle1]

It's the story about how Sansa and Theon are changed by interacting with each other and being in a horrible predicament together. It tells us more about the characters. It has an effect on them. Not just the rape, the whole storyline, including Sansa learning about Bran and Rickon and Theon being told that Sansa was glad, she wishes she could have done the same things. I find that vastly more interesting x 1000 than meeting Barbrey Dustin and Roose building an alliance. I find that more interesting than Sansa's story at the vale and Theon with Jeyne Poole.

Sansa mocking Myranda for building up Ramsay was putting up a front. Watch the scene again and pay close attention to when Myranda leaves. Sansa was terrified and very affected by what she said. She was pretending not to be. Really kind of a clever, subtle, and under-appreciated scene for the show imo.

It would be totally unbelievable if she didn't ask Theon for help. She's scared, hurt, and trapped. She's a strong character but she's not a super hero. She's a 15 year old girl in over her head being raped on a daily basis. She's locked in a room with the only one to see her being Theon. It's either take a chance on Theon or stay there and be raped for an indefinite amount of time. If she didn't beg Theon for help, you'd have people rightfully complaining that rape didn't affect her much. Her begging for help from someone she hates was important to show that it did. I actually love that the show had her do that.

I think that it's one of those things where if the creators really wanted to make the Vale storyline more adaptable and exciting, then they would have done everything to keep the integrity of Sansa's storyline intact. But I get the sense that they never saw the value of what she learns and how she starts to gain more agency, as well as friends in the Vale. I mean they could have added an exciting subplot, they've done this before. They could have waited a season to reintroduce her, just as they have with Bran. It seems that they were so focused on the Jeyne Poole storyline and it's influence on Theon that they threw out Sansa, a P.O.V character's whole story arc, just to put her in a situation in which she is sexually violated, imprisoned, and alone. Then to add insult to injury, they never introduce the storyline in a way that makes sense to each of the characters involved. I still don't understand what the actual point by point plan was for Sansa to get revenge? I still don't understand why she would one day put on her courtesy armor when meeting Roose, but then at dinner openly show disdain for them. I never saw her attempt to gain info on the inside or try to manipulate Ramsay into liking her, if that's what Littlefinger's 'Make him yours' comment was suggesting. Her characterization was all over the place all season.

I also don't get why she had to be in Jeyne Poole's situation in order to be in Winterfell. They could have done so many other interesting things to get her there and she wouldn't have had to be married to psychopath number #2 or get raped to gain the info on Bran and Rickon. Nothing will ever make me believe this plot line was unavoidable. If anything, there are more wasted opportunities because of this detour they have taken.

[Masha]

I think that it's one of those things where if the creators really wanted to make the Vale storyline more adaptable and exciting, then they would have done everything to keep the integrity of Sansa's storyline intact. But I get the sense that they never saw the value of what she learns and how she starts to gain more agency, as well as friends in the Vale. I mean they could have added an exciting subplot, they've done this before. They could have waited a season to reintroduce her, just as they have with Bran. It seems that they were so focused on the Jeyne Poole storyline and it's influence on Theon that they threw out Sansa, a P.O.V character's whole story arc, just to put her in a situation in which she is sexually violated, imprisoned, and alone. Then to add insult to injury, they never introduce the storyline in a way that makes sense to each of the characters involved. I still don't understand what the actual point by point plan was for Sansa to get revenge? I still don't understand why she would one day put on her courtesy armor when meeting Roose, but then at dinner openly show disdain for them. I never saw her attempt to gain info on the inside or try to manipulate Ramsay into liking her, if that's what Littlefinger's 'Make him yours' comment was suggesting. Her characterization was all over the place all season.

I also don't get why she had to be in Jeyne Poole's situation in order to be in Winterfell. They could have done so many other interesting things to get her there and she wouldn't have had to be married to psychopath number #2 or get raped to gain the info on Bran and Rickon. Nothing will ever make me believe this plot line was unavoidable. If anything, there are more wasted opportunities because of this detour they have taken.

I agree with you completely and I've got a feeling that D&D had access to that preview Alayne chapter too - what they did before Littlefinger left - they incorporated his storyline from the books - only they moved it to WF (him saying "make him yours" was taken completely from that chapter only towards Harry). Immediately after LF left, they jumped over to Jeyne storyline and roughly incorporated Sansa there thats why there is such discrepancy in the characterization. She is suddenly forgot how to be courteous and manipulative and became a victim (because thats what Jeyne arc called for). They tried to have it both ways.

If they really wanted to have Jeyne's arc onto Sansa and do it smart without breaking the character arc, they should have avoided whole "empowerment" and DarkSansa and being strong storyline, they could have had LF being far more manipulative toward Sansa and more obvious so to the viewer and Sansa far less "empowered"/strong and trying and failing more obviously in her manipulations of people. Then it sort would have led to the infamous scene and aftermath where she is being locked by Ramsey, depressed not taking care of herself and begging for Theon's help - which is straight from Jeyne's story in the book. And then, she would become hard and ruthless. Or if they wanted to keep Sansa being more manipulative, they should have shown more obvious results of her manipulation of Ramsey and Miranda and her not being so broken afterwards. Many of the criticisms of the whole plot came from this discrepancy in the characterization: Sansa first being weak and abused by Joffrey, and loosing everything, then growing up and becoming strong and having LF help her to start thinking like a manipulator and player in the GOT and I guess empowered, and suddenly she is suddenly back to being weak and abused by Ramsey only more horrifically than before - thats not good storytelling, not subtle or anything, just bad.

Sort of how they mishandled that Jaime and Cersei scene last year - and they could not understand why everyone "misunderstood" it.

[Grail King]

People cared about the wildling lady because she's badass and funny. Jeyne is a victim through and through with basically no interesting qualities. Her point as a character is to be a victim and give Theon something redeeming to do, while also illustrate just how fucked up Ramsay is. There's no way to stay true to book Jeyne while keeping enough people invested in her as a character within the short time frame they have to move the story along. People would just call it more gratuitous and unnecessary to introduce a new character for the sake of having her raped and abused than having it happen to someone who actually ties into the story. On top of all that they need to cast (And pay) a girl that is both talented and resembles Arya somewhat because doing the Arya swap on TV with someone who looks nothing like her would be jarring and quite frankly look stupid on screen.

Well maybe that's you, I cared for that woman because she was smart and cared for her children, if she was badass she still be alive, she would not have froze thinking about those dead children she was facing and she would not have just crossed her arms in hopeless despair.

As for Jeyne Poole since when is a normal sheltered child who happen to be a victim of 30ish something grownups not worth caring about?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Plan is:

1. Marry Ramsey

2. Wait for Stannis

3. Dont die

4. Be made warden of the north by vitue of being the last Stark left (why he thinks Stannis would do this to Mrs Bolton previously Mrs Lannister is beyond me. Not the right impression constantly marrying your supposed enemies)

[Stannistician]

It's the story about how Sansa and Theon are changed by interacting with each other and being in a horrible predicament together. It tells us more about the characters. It has an effect on them. Not just the rape, the whole storyline, including Sansa learning about Bran and Rickon and Theon being told that Sansa was glad, she wishes she could have done the same things. I find that vastly more interesting x 1000 than meeting Barbrey Dustin and Roose building an alliance. I find that more interesting than Sansa's story at the vale and Theon with Jeyne Poole.

To each their own. People watch the show and read the series for different reasons. Personally, my favorite storyline in the last two books was the Wintefell storyline. I loved the political intrigue and personal human psychology elements of that story. But those elements simply are not here in the show version (admittedly the human psychology elements are tough to do given the medium, but they gutted the political intrigue out altogether). It's a very simplified story that does not even resemble the story it is supposed to be adapting.

Its almost as if the Red Wedding never happened on the show. The Boltons and Freys (Where the hell are the Freys in all this?) solidified their power through the Red Wedding by trashing the tradition of guest rights. Shouldn't there be consequences? Shouldn't people in the north be just a little upset over this? Jeyne Poole was a plot device, sure, but she was more than just a plot device for Theon: GRRM needed a reason to get the Boltons, Freys, and northern lords in one place in order to tell the story of the aftermath of the Red Wedding. Using another wedding for this purpose was perfect.

And speaking of Theon, I kept reading on these boards that people were worried that Sansa was going to be used to further Theon's arc. As it turns out, it looks like both Theon and Sansa are taking a back seat to Ramsay in this story.

But like I said, to each their own.

[Grail King]

this is what i'm talking about. sansa didn't give away her escape plan so she's a strong clever character? come on.

She is strong, clever and possible good manipulator in the making, she's only 13 at the end of A Feast For Crows.

Also she is still alive more then we can say for Robert,Ned,Cat,Robb,Tywin,Shae, etc.

[Colonel Green]

Considering that she got crucial information out of him, I'd say it worked

She wasn't looking for crucial information, she was just yelling at him and he blurted it out by accident.

[Grail King]

I think we can say she was just upset and didn't mean what she said. But it comes to this what is she trying to achieve with Theon. Theon betrayed her family why should he help her, he killed her brothers according to her so compared to that telling on her to Ramsay is peanuts. I don't understand Sansa thinking here, she pleaded him to light this candle what made her think he will follow through. Theon has no reason to help her and the fact that Sansa demands he does is just taking her naiveness to a whole new level. Either she is naive, or she is clever or she is both depending on the situation.

She was desperate, scared, naive and compassionate all in one, it is also normal.

Sansa just didn't realize the full extent that Theon is a broken person, it was what, her third encounter with him and her first where she truly could interact with him; also in the dining room with the strange people she challenged Ramsey on why he is doing what he is to him, so there was a hint of compassion there.

Her compassion there her rage for his betrayal and her basically calling him a kin slayer to his face eventually got him talking and cracked the Reek shell .

[Grail King]

Ros as FArya??

Esmé Bianco must be 15 years too old for that role. But she was great as actress, I do not get the complaints about her. And she is a very beautiful woman.

Actually yes she is.

I liked her better than the Shae actress.

[Grail King]

It's the story about how Sansa and Theon are changed by interacting with each other and being in a horrible predicament together. It tells us more about the characters. It has an effect on them. Not just the rape, the whole storyline, including Sansa learning about Bran and Rickon and Theon being told that Sansa was glad, she wishes she could have done the same things. I find that vastly more interesting x 1000 than meeting Barbrey Dustin and Roose building an alliance. I find that more interesting than Sansa's story at the vale and Theon with Jeyne Poole.

Sansa mocking Myranda for building up Ramsay was putting up a front. Watch the scene again and pay close attention to when Myranda leaves. Sansa was terrified and very affected by what she said. She was pretending not to be. Really kind of a clever, subtle, and under-appreciated scene for the show imo.

It would be totally unbelievable if she didn't ask Theon for help. She's scared, hurt, and trapped. She's a strong character but she's not a super hero. She's a 15 year old girl in over her head being raped on a daily basis. She's locked in a room with the only one to see her being Theon. It's either take a chance on Theon or stay there and be raped for an indefinite amount of time. If she didn't beg Theon for help, you'd have people rightfully complaining that rape didn't affect her much. Her begging for help from someone she hates was important to show that it did. I actually love that the show had her do that.

Yes,Yes and Yes everything Sophie does is reflected in her voice,facial, and body language I think a lot of people miss those.

ETA: sh's just turned 14 or will, she aged herself to 14 in the Vale she felt Alyane should be older then 13.

[Grail King]

She wasn't looking for crucial information, she was just yelling at him and he blurted it out by accident.

she played good cop trying the emotional stuff didn't work, played the bad cop thing with threats and calling him murder and he broke, accident or no, it worked just like police work and anti crime squads does today.

What ever you want to say no one can say she's passive or has no agency or isn't thinking in this game.

[gash is back]

She is strong, clever and possible good manipulator in the making, she's only 13 at the end of A Feast For Crows.

Also she is still alive more then we can say for Robert,Ned,Cat,Robb,Tywin,Shae, etc.

lol baby rickon is still alive too.

[Grail King]

lol baby rickon is still alive too.

And the way GRRM writes he may die.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

lol baby rickon is still alive too.

Lol at you ignoring the author. George himself said that Sansa's political journey is about becoming from a piece to a player. That's literally what the author said.

[Grail King]

From what I see, all the Starks are intelligent, just that Robb let honor get the best of him and he made some real bad decisions, Rickon is small and smart and has a touch of the sight, I have a feeling if he lives he will be one hell of a Stark of old.

We have Bran becoming a God, Jon a Leader, Arya an assassin, and Sansa a master manipulator / politician.

Why else would GRRM pair each kid with a mentor skilled in these tools that the Starks may have lost and really need if they are to survive and save their house.

Not seeing their growth is a big mistake on our part, and with Sansa in particular as hers is the subtlest of all of them.

[Pies are coming]

That does not happen in the books. Have you read Alayne I from Winds? Alayne's not poisoning the boy.

I recommend you read a book called "A Feast for Crows", which is related to this particular TV show

this is what i'm talking about. sansa didn't give away her escape plan so she's a strong clever character? come on.

:agree:

There are moments of Sansa showing resilience and bravery, but not telling her servants she was going to the Godswood to arrange her escape isn't one of those.

I like your explanation of Sansa. I too see Sansa as someone who doesn't resort to brutal violence as a means for revenge. She is different from arya is that she is not capable of murder yet. There is a difference for wanting someone to be punished for their sins and brutalizing a human being. Sansa thought of pushing Joffrey off the ledge yes she wanted him dead,

Sansa moved for the kill in the show

I think we can say she was just upset and didn't mean what she said. But it comes to this what is she trying to achieve with Theon. Theon betrayed her family why should he help her, he killed her brothers according to her so compared to that telling on her to Ramsay is peanuts. I don't understand Sansa thinking here, she pleaded him to light this candle what made her think he will follow through. Theon has no reason to help her and the fact that Sansa demands he does is just taking her naiveness to a whole new level. Either she is naive, or she is clever or she is both depending on the situation.

And what else is she going to do? She's locked in that room and the only people she sees are Ramsay and Theon. She takes her chances with Theon, or she stays there for good.

This was never an option...the showrunners like Sophie Turner too much and weren't willing to have her be sidelined for a season. They wanted to give her some "meaty" stuff to work with and that story was the only thing they could come up with. I agree-- I wish they had just been willing to have her appear in 4 episodes in the Eyrie and do her thing. But they weren't.

That being said, it doesn't excuse the "incoherence" and "contrived ass-backward means" they used to get her there. I believe this was a storyline condensation that maybe hypothetically could have made sense, but the writers didn't put enough thought or effort into its actual execution.

Littlefinger's plan makes sense for him, if you forget the supposed idea that LF wants to marry Sansa

I agree with you completely and I've got a feeling that D&D had access to that preview Alayne chapter too - what they did before Littlefinger left - they incorporated his storyline from the books - only they moved it to WF (him saying "make him yours" was taken completely from that chapter only towards Harry). Immediately after LF left, they jumped over to Jeyne storyline and roughly incorporated Sansa there thats why there is such discrepancy in the characterization. She is suddenly forgot how to be courteous and manipulative and became a victim (because thats what Jeyne arc called for). They tried to have it both ways.

If they really wanted to have Jeyne's arc onto Sansa and do it smart without breaking the character arc, they should have avoided whole "empowerment" and DarkSansa and being strong storyline, they could have had LF being far more manipulative toward Sansa and more obvious so to the viewer and Sansa far less "empowered"/strong and trying and failing more obviously in her manipulations of people. Then it sort would have led to the infamous scene and aftermath where she is being locked by Ramsey, depressed not taking care of herself and begging for Theon's help - which is straight from Jeyne's story in the book. And then, she would become hard and ruthless. Or if they wanted to keep Sansa being more manipulative, they should have shown more obvious results of her manipulation of Ramsey and Miranda and her not being so broken afterwards. Many of the criticisms of the whole plot came from this discrepancy in the characterization: Sansa first being weak and abused by Joffrey, and loosing everything, then growing up and becoming strong and having LF help her to start thinking like a manipulator and player in the GOT and I guess empowered, and suddenly she is suddenly back to being weak and abused by Ramsey only more horrifically than before - thats not good storytelling, not subtle or anything, just bad.

Sort of how they mishandled that Jaime and Cersei scene last year - and they could not understand why everyone "misunderstood" it.

Mmm... this Sansa isn't weak. Alone, unarmed and raped? Yes. Weak? I don't see it.

Plan is:

1. Marry Ramsey

2. Wait for Stannis

3. Dont die

4. Be made warden of the north by vitue of being the last Stark left (why he thinks Stannis would do this to Mrs Bolton previously Mrs Lannister is beyond me. Not the right impression constantly marrying your supposed enemies)

That's not Littlefinger's plan, that's LF's pitch to Sansa. Littlefinger lies.

She wasn't looking for crucial information, she was just yelling at him and he blurted it out by accident.

True, she didn't know there even was crucial information to be gathered, but she was waiting for him to ask a single question ("why did you betray me?") and managed to hit the jackpot

From what I see, all the Starks are intelligent, just that Robb let honor get the best of him and he made some real bad decisions, Rickon is small and smart and has a touch of the sight, I have a feeling if he lives he will be one hell of a Stark of old.

We have Bran becoming a God, Jon a Leader, Arya an assassin, and Sansa a master manipulator / politician.

Why else would GRRM pair each kid with a mentor skilled in these tools that the Starks may have lost and really need if they are to survive and save their house.

Not seeing their growth is a big mistake on our part, and with Sansa in particular as hers is the subtlest of all of them.

Book Sansa's growth is so subtle that we aren't even allowed to know if she realizes she has secured hostages for Littlefinger in TWOW

Anyway, speculating in the coming episodes, Sansa can very well threaten Theon to tell Ramsay Theon told her Bran and Rickon were alive to have Theon doing his bidding (as long as it doesn't risk getting punished by Ramsay anyway). Positive reinforcement doesn't work on Reek and Cersei did tell her that, in certain situations, she ought to be feared.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Well, Alayne I is the newest chapter involving the character. Is she poisoning SweetRobin? I guess not. Nor does she in Feast really - Only a heavy dose of sweetsleep. That's just what happens. LF tells her "When he dies", not that she's supposed to poison him. The rest is just speculation, that doesn't really add up.

[Grail King]

I still think SR will live, and HTH is a feint by LF and may die it what hints were given in the gift chapter.

[Lord Damian]

Two Wrongs don't make a third wrong palatable. Whitewashing characters is not the same as mashing two totally different stories on top of one another.

As for whitewashing, you know who is really and truly whitewashed...Ramsay Bolton. Book!Ramsay is an ugly, filthy (even Lordly clothes don't make him look good) creep who is incapable of attracting any woman consensually. He and a band of thugs assault, batter, rape and brutally kill several innocent women (even Wyman Manderly has heard it all the way in White Harbor). Show!Ramsay until Season 5's Sansa-Jeyne story, is never shown and depicted as a rapist. He has consensual relationships with a couple of psycho-women who serve as his henchwomen and later Myranda is shown as a willing Tyanna-of-the-Tower type who collaborates with Ramsay killing all the other girls. I mean that's some really deep disturbing misogyny there in terms of how the writers adapted the story. People say the books have more rape than the show, well the reason for that is they give us watered-down Ramsay and convert his victims into willing participants of torture and abuse. I think GRRM gives them more dignity.

It is true that the show whitewashes all characters. They whitewash Renly severely and deliberately so. They whitewash Tywin (without the Tysha revelation showing him for the all-consuming-monster that he is, his death doesn't become cathartic). They have also whitewashed Jaime thoroughly as well. I don't mind them cleaning up Tyrion or Sansa, since deep down they are good, noble people (at least until ADWD) but I do think that whitewashing the book's villains are really wrong.

Well GRRM did say that he planned for Sansa to have a brand new plot and start that. To be honest, narratively it makes sense for the action to shift to the Vale. That's the one part of the Realm that hasn't been affected by war, and if there's going to be food relief for Winter, and the like, especially since the Reach and the Stormlands have also been attacked by invaders. The Riverlands is a bust, the North is a mess in several areas (Winterfell's Glass Gardens aren't repaired).

In the books, I have her as Aegon VI's Queen. A more beneficial arrangement for Littlefinger than some lordling.

[artihcus022]

First of all people trying to grade characters in how smart they are, great they are, cunning and the like they are, are completely missing the point of the entire story. ASOIAF is not a blind celebration of power. If a character is alive, that doesn't mean they were dumb, they were weak and the ones who survive were smart and strong.

Ultimately the bravest and best (Ned Stark) can be undone by schemes of low-cunning (Littlefinger, Cersei). The most disposable and neglected characters (Arya, Sansa) prove unexpectedly resourceful and strong precisely because they are underestimated. There is more truth in children's stories (Bran and the Reeds) than in the words and deeds of any high lord (Tywin Lannister). In other words, everybody fails and loses in some way, but defeat and setback can teach you something and its good to learn from mistakes whereas victory can blind you.

That Sansa survives doesn't mean her character is super-strong or super-smart compared to others, the point is what does she learn through that survival. In AFFC she's colder, more cautious but also more compassionate to the lowborn, the bastards and is friendly to Mya Stone and Lothar Brune. That is actual character development. In Season 5, she is disdainful to Myranda and Ramsay (and she is justified to feeling so in the presence of such lumpen elements). In the books, she feels ambiguous about Littlefinger and she knows that the guy is not quite right in her head. Yes her story is slight compared to Arya being an Assassin in a city (inevitable Arya's Creed memes and spinoffs will be coming) but it has an importance after all, and is vital to the story. Privileging one aspect and setting over another ruins and disgraces the entire architecture of the series.