[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVIII - DeReekerization

[Mladen]

What do you expect Sansa to be? An angel? Jesus? Francis of Assisi? Compassion for the guy who killed her little brothers? Empathy for the child killer? She is not in denial anymore, she has grown beyond her reaction to the Mycah murder and those dead boys are her own brothers (she believes)!! She may feel compassion for Reek at some point but as spontaneous reaction it would be totally unrealistic. She rages, she confronts Theon, she wants to torture him: this is the man who killed her little brothers, what reaction do you expect? Sansa is no superhuman, actually fans claim to love her character for being so very normal and relatable. I think her reaction is very relatable here or do you only love saintly characters?

You are missing the point. I don't expect Sansa to be anything more than Sansa. Compassion has been one of her greatest virtues throughout the series. Of course, I don't expect her all to be like St. Tyrion (Jesus of GoT), but this is not strawman thing, as you want it to present. This is not either wanting him to be flayed or being soul of forgiveness. There are so many shades here.

To the point where she finds out about Bran and Rickon, I didn't expect some forgiveness to come.But forgiveness and empathy are not the same. Feeling bad about someone who has been tortured in the way Theon was, for Sansa should be beyond despicable. And, they went there during Bolton dinner scene. Sansa doesn't forgive him but is horrified with what Ramsay did it. That is rather different than saying "I would flayed you myself".

So, as I have said, I don't expect her to be saint (we have Tyrion for those purposes on the show) but what I do expect her to be on the show is basically herself.

Considering what she's been through, her reaction was fitting. A little over the top, but fitting. She has some dark thoughts in the books as well, let's not forget.

It wasn't a little over the top, it was through the roof. I mean, her reaction on Bolton dinner scene, as I said, was fitting. This one is beyond anything she ever thought about anyone in the books.

[earth127]

I'm not going to place any bets on what is major and minor in the long run untill we have all the books ( and seasons a little it too).

[Daske]

I don't expect her all to be like St. Tyrion (Jesus of GoT), but this is not strawman thing, as you want it to present.

...

So, as I have said, I don't expect her to be saint (we have Tyrion for those purposes on the show) but what I do expect her to be on the show is basically herself.

This site seems to pump out these urban myths, some kind of mass hysteria.

Tyrion burned thousands of men alive in battle, and murdered his father in cold blood and strangles his ex-girlfriend over jealosy/revenge for betrayal (I'm sure you would call it self-defence, but it wasn't, he didn't have to kill her).

And calls his sister the worst names known to mankind. And has stated he would kill her too in a heartbeat given half a chance.

That is a saint in your book?

People love his character in the show because he is a charismatic anti-hero, not because he is a saint.

[Daske]

Double post, sorry

[Mladen]

This site seems to pump out these urban myths, some kind of mass hysteria.

Tyrion burned thousands of men alive in battle, and murdered his father in cold blood and strangles his ex-girlfriend over jealosy/revenge for betrayal (I'm sure you would call it self-defence, but it wasn't, he didn't have to kill her).

And calls his sister the worst names known to mankind. And wants to kill her too given half a chance.

That is a saint in your book?

Not in mine, in the eyes of producers. Tyrion became Prince Charming and is borderline unrecognizable when you have Tyrion from the books in mind.

I prefer the book Tyrion. We can't pretend he is Prince Charming like we can with his TV counterpart.

[voodooqueen126]

Sansa lacked even basic manipulation skills with Theon in this scene.

[Lord Freypie]

Sansa lacked even basic manipulation skills with Theon in this scene.

It's strange I'd say exactly the opposite : Sansa understood that his only motive were fear and culpability and decided to frighten and culpabilize him.

Out of that considering the changes in Sansa arc I think the evolution of her character very believable, could we really expect "compassion" for Theon from someone who has just been repeteadly raped and betrayed ? And Theon being the only character in a lower position than herself she can pass her nerves on, it's rather logical she does (even forgetting it's actually astute to be tough with him, like said above).

[Daske]

Not in mine, in the eyes of producers. Tyrion became Prince Charming and is borderline unrecognizable when you have Tyrion from the books in mind.

I prefer the book Tyrion. We can't pretend he is Prince Charming like we can with his TV counterpart.

What's in the producer's eyes in on the screen. They had 'Prince Charming' kill his father and girlfriend! Is that what a saint would do? Is that what even what most nasty people would do? Of course not.

Yes show Tyrion is a bit more likeable (thank god considering the last books), but he is not the audience's moral compass, and most certainly no saint or Prince Charming, and his life is most definitely no fairy tale.

[David Selig]

What's in the producer's eyes in on the screen. They had 'Prince Charming' kill his father and girlfriend! Is that what a saint would do? Is that what even what most nasty people would do? Of course not.

His father was a monster who ordered his execution and his girlfriend tried to kill him first.

Yes show Tyrion is a bit more likeable

Understatement of the week. He is so whitewahsed he barely resembles his book version .

[Mladen]

What's in the producer's eyes in on the screen. They had 'Prince Charming' kill his father and girlfriend! Is that what a saint would do? Is that what even what most nasty people would do? Of course not.

Yes show Tyrion is a bit more likeable (thank god considering the last books), but he is not the audience's moral compass, and most certainly no saint or Prince Charming, and his life is most definitely no fairy tale.

Prince Charming usually kills dragons, monsters and other villains. If anyone is villain in his story, it was Tywin and Shae. So, yeah, they are pushing Prince Charming narrative.

And as David said, it is understatement of the year to say he is a bit more likeable. He is definitely fulfilling the trope of Prince Charming.

[Daske]

I think your level of what is right/wrong behaviour for a saint is diffrent to most people's (and different to what the word means too).

And if whitewashed makes for a more interesting character that people want to root for all the better. Why keep him exactly like the book and bore the tears off veiwers just for the sake of it.

But whatever, at the end of the day if most of us find him a complex, entertaining character to watch on screen then that's the important thing.

[David Selig]

And if whitewashed makes for a more interesting character that people want to root for all the better. Why keep him exactly like the book and bore the tears off veiwers just for the sake of it.

Yeah, sure, because Book Tyrion isn't popular at all... :cool4:

[Ted Chang]

This site seems to pump out these urban myths, some kind of mass hysteria.

Tyrion burned thousands of men alive in battle, and murdered his father in cold blood and strangles his ex-girlfriend over jealosy/revenge for betrayal (I'm sure you would call it self-defence, but it wasn't, he didn't have to kill her).

And calls his sister the worst names known to mankind. And has stated he would kill her too in a heartbeat given half a chance.

That is a saint in your book?

People love his character in the show because he is a charismatic anti-hero, not because he is a saint.

Exactly. Not that I have a problem with any of the things Tyrion has done in any case, but the notion that he is a one-dimensional saint is pretty feeble. He started out as the charismatic anti-hero type as you say, and he is morphing into the real thing, just like GRRM always intended. Anybody expecting great differences between book and show on this one are in for some sad times. Maybe some people just can't cope with an ugly dwarf as the hero of the story...

[Mladen]

I think your level of what is right/wrong behaviour for a saint is diffrent to most people's (and different to what the word means too).

And if whitewashed makes for a more interesting character that people want to root for all the better. Why keep him exactly like the book and bore the tears off veiwers just for the sake of it.

But whatever, at the end of the day if most of us find him a complex, entertaining character to watch on screen then that's the important thing.

I am not thinking of Tyrion as a saint (did you actually need to hear that?), but Tyrion's character has been whitewashed beyond measure to the point where you actually have nothing to hold against him. Because he kinda killed Shae in self-defense and Tywin oppressed him his entire life.

And Tyrion isn't "more interesting", he is just, as the person, far "whiter" than in the books. And much simpler. GRRM gave us somewhat complex character. D&D destroyed that.

Exactly. Not that I have a problem with any of the things Tyrion has done in any case, but the notion that he is a one-dimensional saint is pretty feeble. He started out as the charismatic anti-hero type as you say, and he is morphing into the real thing, just like GRRM always intended. Anybody expecting great differences between book and show on this one are in for some sad times. Maybe some people just can't cope with an ugly dwarf as the hero of the story...

You said it yourself.

[Lord Freypie]

The biggest mystery on westeros.org :

Why are all the threads about Sansa ending in discussions about Tyrion ?

[David Selig]

This site seems to pump out these urban myths, some kind of mass hysteria.

Tyrion burned thousands of men alive in battle, and murdered his father in cold blood and strangles his ex-girlfriend over jealosy/revenge for betrayal (I'm sure you would call it self-defence, but it wasn't, he didn't have to kill her).

And calls his sister the worst names known to mankind. And has stated he would kill her too in a heartbeat given half a chance.

That is a saint in your book?

Well, quite a few of the Christian saints has done a lot worse, if we are being pedantic. One of their most celebrated saints is Constantine the Great, a pretty terrible person by most accounts and responsible for numerous deaths. And if we include the Old Testament heroes, Tyrion completely pales in comparison with the likes of Joshua who committed a genocide.

[Woman of War]

Exactly. Not that I have a problem with any of the things Tyrion has done in any case, but the notion that he is a one-dimensional saint is pretty feeble. He started out as the charismatic anti-hero type as you say, and he is morphing into the real thing, just like GRRM always intended. Anybody expecting great differences between book and show on this one are in for some sad times. Maybe some people just can't cope with an ugly dwarf as the hero of the story...

Tyrion as character defies all tropes about "handicapped" protagonists. He is not in the story to be the morally upright model handicapped, the Uncle Tom character who willingly steps back into second row, sacrificing himself to let the real hero shine. He is not the cautionary example to teach kids not to bully their fat and ugly classmate because that poor guy automatically must be the better human being in a morally uplifting story, cardboard fiction.

He is in the story to be entirely himself, the most complex and interesting character of the books, ugly, mean, spiteful, generous, compassionate, immoral and scrupulous, brave, clever, educated and vulgar. An absolutely innovative fictional invention - who happens to be an ugly dwarf but is so much more.

I wished they had given us his whole story in the show, with all highs and lows. But they have reduced moral challenge around some characters, be it Cersei, Sandor, Sansa or Varys, even Tywin.

[Daske]

The biggest mystery on westeros.org :

Why are all the threads about Sansa ending in discussions about Tyrion ?

.

Sorry, was my fault it started to derail. I will desist!

[Woman of War]

The biggest mystery on westeros.org :

Why are all the threads about Sansa ending in discussions about Tyrion ?

Risto mentioned "St. Tyrion" in a rather unrelated way.

Whenever people run out of arguments they make use of "Tyrion's law" ;) as an online discussion grows longer the probability.......

....no, seriously, why Tyrion would be part of Sansa's situation right here and now I do not get.

[artihcus022]

Interesting recent interview with GRRM: http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/31/game-thrones-lady-stoneheart

You know George RR Martin said quite clearly that he opposes the showrunners choice of blending Sansa and Jeyne in that interview. He feels that they should have kept Jeyne in the story rather than blend it with Sansa.

The problem with merging characters and storylines is that if its not done skilfully, the end result will show the stitching rather than an organic development. Merging Jorah with Jon Connington works decently but its absolutely impossible to take Sansa's story at face value anymore because I can clearly see the contrivance...okay here she's Jeyne, now she's back to Sansa...now she's someone else and so on. I don't think any adaptation convenience can justify the total damage it has done. Elio's measured defense, that Jeyne is meant as a parallel to Sansa in the books, would have made sense only if they actually reworked the entire Winterfell story around that. There is a huge difference between Jeyne being Fake Arya, a girl with no power, no resources (who still used her little agency to successfully force Theon to save her) and a real Stark girl at Winterfell.

And likewise, removing Jeyne has compromised Theon's "redemption". Theon saving Jeyne, a girl he didn't care for in his Theon years was a moment of genuine heroism and real character development. I don't know how Theon can be remotely redeemed if he let Ramsay Bolton rape Sansa Stark, literally stood and did nothing and then sold out Sansa to him after she (stupidly I might add) told him about the signal. Theon at that point in the books was burning with guilt at the death of the Starks (his dream about the dead starks at the table), I can't imagine Book!Theon seeing Sansa at Winterfell and not snapping back at once, or faster than he did in the books. Sansa was like a sister to him, and also a girl he had an impossible crush on (at least in the books), the equation between him and Book!Sansa is totally different from Theon and Book!Jeyne.