Lord BitterRaven Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I don't think that the WW saw it as a fight to begin with, but rather a game of cat and mouse. Ever see a whale play with a seal before they eat it! The walkers don't seem to see people as a threat in the show, but rather like harmless children who they butcher when they feel like it. I can think of a couple examples: They walk right past sam after the mutiny at Crasters, then the one he kills shatters sam's sword and just shoved him aside. Why dissect a scene that's so obvious? Afterall, the look of shock on the icy bastard's face when jon blocked the walker's blade wasn't exactly subtle. Even now, I wouldn't say that the NK sees Jon as a threat, but rather an anomaly that has peaked his interest. My question is this: How can the watch mutiny against Jon and the wildlings after his brothers (edd at least) testify to what they saw? And they saw Jon kill one of the walkers, so what excuse are they going to have to mutiny that isn't lame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord BitterRaven Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I don't think that the WW saw it as a fight to begin with, but rather a game of cat and mouse. Ever see a whale play with a seal before they eat it! The walkers don't seem to see people as a threat in the show, but rather like harmless children who they butcher when they feel like it. I can think of a couple examples: They walk right past sam after the mutiny at Crasters, then the one he kills shatters sam's sword and just shoved him aside. Why dissect a scene that's so obvious? Afterall, the look of shock on the icy bastard's face when jon blocked the walker's blade wasn't exactly subtle. Even now, I wouldn't say that the NK sees Jon as a threat, but rather an anomaly that has peaked his interest. My question is this: How can the watch mutiny against Jon and the wildlings after his brothers (edd at least) testify to what they saw? And they saw Jon kill one of the walkers, so what excuse are they going to have to mutiny that isn't lame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robasp2 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I have a possible explanation.The WW wanted to preserve Jon until he was outside.. THEN kill him for the Nights king to see.Doesnt that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeIAF Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 My question is this: How can the watch mutiny against Jon and the wildlings after his brothers (edd at least) testify to what they saw? And they saw Jon kill one of the walkers, so what excuse are they going to have to mutiny that isn't lame? Him breaking his vows in marching against the Boltons at Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 My question is this: How can the watch mutiny against Jon and the wildlings after his brothers (edd at least) testify to what they saw? And they saw Jon kill one of the walkers, so what excuse are they going to have to mutiny that isn't lame? Why would it be any different to the book? They stab Jon for being a Wildling/Giant buddy, it has nothing to do with the existence of Walkers, or Jon's potential to combat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys_Is_Coming Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 My question is this: How can the watch mutiny against Jon and the wildlings after his brothers (edd at least) testify to what they saw? And they saw Jon kill one of the walkers, so what excuse are they going to have to mutiny that isn't lame? I think that this is the question that no one can answer because D+D think the audience won't notice the gaping plot hole. Now that the NW has seen the Whitewalker army in action, it makes absolutely no sense for them to go all Ides of March on Jon. I'm not certain it's going to be a full on mutiny, but maybe just Olly McStabby going rogue because he thinks "it's the right thing to do." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I have a possible explanation. The WW wanted to preserve Jon until he was outside.. THEN kill him for the Nights king to see. Doesnt that make sense? Re trying to make sense of why the Walkers seemed to treat Jon, and Sam in a previous episode, differently than other people - perhaps it isn't meant to make full sense yet. But consider this, Sam and Jon are the only 2 Nights Watch members we have seen take their vows before the Old Gods, in show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys_Is_Coming Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Why would it be any different to the book? They stab Jon for being a Wildling/Giant buddy, it has nothing to do with the existence of Walkers, or Jon's potential to combat them. I think the reasons for stabbing Jon in the book are far more layered than that. The problem on the show is that killing their leader in the midst of a WW invasion makes no sense. Now that they have seen the undead army heading their way, they need those Wildlings Jon is buddies with. They need an army to fight the undead army. Why kill the man who just brought you 2000 new potential recruits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robasp2 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Re trying to make sense of why the Walkers seemed to treat Jon, and Sam in a previous episode, differently than other people - perhaps it isn't meant to make full sense yet. But consider this, Sam and Jon are the only 2 Nights Watch members we have seen take their vows before the Old Gods, in show.He didnt give two shits about Sam. He badly wanted the baby.I guess since they are intelligent, they can recognize crows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I think the reasons for stabbing Jon in the book are far more layered than that. The problem on the show is that killing their leader in the midst of a WW invasion makes no sense. Now that they have seen the undead army heading their way, they need those Wildlings Jon is buddies with. They need an army to fight the undead army. Why kill the man who just brought you 2000 new potential recruits? But they knew the undead were heading their way in the books also - they saw them at the Fist and heard about Hardhome. They didn't care about that? The show has just brought to the foreground what the books kept in the background, but the overall dynamics are unchanged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 He didnt give two shits about Sam. He badly wanted the baby. I guess since they are intelligent, they can recognize crows. Rather than push him aside, the White Walker could have killed Sam, like the Thenn. Not really a nasty monster if it just pushes Sam aside. And they aren't really nasty monsters if they just turn babies into ice mages either. Only Old God sworn crows matter, I think. There is a connection between Others and brothers who swore to the Old Gods because of the Nights King. Other people are immaterial to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robasp2 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Why kill the man who just brought you 2000 new potential recruits?We'll see next ep.Usually NW recruits accept their situation and become brothers.Wildlings have no rules. We will see them walking around all smug and hateful of the nightswatch.In your face losers. See whos on the other side of the wall now?"First ranger? Whats that? He sucks everyone? Haha"Steward? Ha maids"I think these are enough to bring eztreme hate to the guy who let them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys_Is_Coming Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 We'll see next ep.Usually NW recruits accept their situation and become brothers.Wildlings have no rules. We will see them walking around all smug and hateful of the nightswatch.In your face losers. See whos on the other side of the wall now?"First ranger? Whats that? He sucks everyone? Haha"Steward? Ha maids"I think these are enough to bring eztreme hate to the guy who let them in.Good point! There's gotta be a lot of tension between the two groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord BitterRaven Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 But they knew the undead were heading their way in the books also - they saw them at the Fist and heard about Hardhome. They didn't care about that?The show has just brought to the foreground what the books kept in the background, but the overall dynamics are unchanged. Very few members of the watch made it back from the Great Ranging and more than a couple that did were Jon's friends. And there's a huge difference between hearing about it from a few people and hearing about it from a few thousand (some of which are NW). There's too many to testify for the watch to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord BitterRaven Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Him breaking his vows in marching against the Boltons at Winterfell. That's a good point, except the only reason to march on Winterfell is Sansa, and aside from putting her there, they haven't really laid any foundation for that to happen. I see Brienne getting involved there more than Jon. Why march? Why does Ramsay send the letter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeParking Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 That's a good point, except the only reason to march on Winterfell is Sansa, and aside from putting her there, they haven't really laid any foundation for that to happen. I see Brienne getting involved there more than Jon. Why march? Why does Ramsay send the letter? My thoughts on the book version on the Pink Letter are that Ramsay (or Roose) sent the letter to sow discord at Castle Black. When fArya escaped, they knew that if she reached Stannis's camp he would likely send her to Jon. Since intercepting her on the way there might be difficult with the storm going on, they decide to send a Raven with dire news (Stannis's death) and make demands (give the Boltons fArya, Reek, Selyse, Shireen, Wildling princess and baby) that could turn the different factions at Castle Black against each other and specifically against Jon since he is in charge. So in the show when Sansa escapes, the same reason for the Boltons to send the letter exists. Jon marches because he wants to catch Ramsay off guard and because he wants to save his sister (this would be the first time he hears about her in the show). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord BitterRaven Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 My thoughts on the book version on the Pink Letter are that Ramsay (or Roose) sent the letter to sow discord at Castle Black. When fArya escaped, they knew that if she reached Stannis's camp he would likely send her to Jon. Since intercepting her on the way there might be difficult with the storm going on, they decide to send a Raven with dire news (Stannis's death) and make demands (give the Boltons fArya, Reek, Selyse, Shireen, Wildling princess and baby) that could turn the different factions at Castle Black against each other and specifically against Jon since he is in charge. So in the show when Sansa escapes, the same reason for the Boltons to send the letter exists. Jon marches because he wants to catch Ramsay off guard and because he wants to save his sister (this would be the first time he hears about her in the show). The only way I see that working is if they develop it slowly and we don't see the mutiny until midway through next season. With only two episodes left this season, there's not enough time to have sansa escape, Jon to recieve letter and put together a plan to march on Winterfell. But I guess it's not set in stone that it even happens this season anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeIAF Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 My thoughts on the book version on the Pink Letter are that Ramsay (or Roose) sent the letter to sow discord at Castle Black. When fArya escaped, they knew that if she reached Stannis's camp he would likely send her to Jon. Since intercepting her on the way there might be difficult with the storm going on, they decide to send a Raven with dire news (Stannis's death) and make demands (give the Boltons fArya, Reek, Selyse, Shireen, Wildling princess and baby) that could turn the different factions at Castle Black against each other and specifically against Jon since he is in charge. So in the show when Sansa escapes, the same reason for the Boltons to send the letter exists. Jon marches because he wants to catch Ramsay off guard and because he wants to save his sister (this would be the first time he hears about her in the show). The Boltons can't know what goes around at Castle Black, they couldn't anticipate what Jon Snow will do and what the reaction of his Black Brothers would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SayGen Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Plot armor best armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 robasp2:I think once you decide on a protracted hero vs vastly superior badguy showdown because that will entertain the masses it's pretty much guaranteed that it won't make sense.Is it acceptable? Depends where you set the bar. I watch superhero movies, zombie movies, typical action flicks. I have a blast watching them. I don't conflate "entertaining" with "good" though.I guess the bottom line with me and probably all "book snobs" is if it was just the TV show I'd probably still enjoy it for what it is but I wouldn't be on a forum talking about it, just like I'm not on The Walking Dead forum pondering the soundness of the plot, despite being an avid TWD watcher. And I certainly wouldn't call TWD well written, well acted, or well anything.I.dunno man, when I eat a greasy pizza I don't need to tell myself it's great cuisine. In fact, I think somehow its being utter trash is part of the enjoyment :D Now if I was a devoted connoisseur of traditional italian cuisine and someone came along aggressively insisting that Domino's is much better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.