[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[DMC]

8 hours ago, RumHam said:

Well yeah that's a new development. There's really no reason for her to risk letting other people ride them if she can control them all. I still suspect the other two will get riders though. But really who knows with this show. 

Yeah literally everything Martin has established indicates Dany cannot control all three dragons and the other two will have riders.  This was clearly show only in my book.

[UnmaskedLurker]

5 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah literally everything Martin has established indicates Dany cannot control all three dragons and the other two will have riders.  This was clearly show only in my book.

I don't think she "controlled" them any more than she controlled Drogon back in one of the earliest seasons when she said "Dracaerys" and he burned the magician in Qarth (don't remember all the details, but I think most people who have watched the show know the sceneI am referencing). Sure, the dragons saw what Drogon was doing and are loyal to Dany and Drogon -- so they joined in -- but I did not take the action as Dany "controlling" them in the nature of a true "bond" with dragons. If she wants them to be as effective as possible in a battle against the WW, I think they are going to need riders.

[RumHam]

30 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I don't think she "controlled" them any more than she controlled Drogon back in one of the earliest seasons when she said "Dracaerys" and he burned the magician in Qarth (don't remember all the details, but I think most people who have watched the show know the sceneI am referencing). Sure, the dragons saw what Drogon was doing and are loyal to Dany and Drogon -- so they joined in -- but I did not take the action as Dany "controlling" them in the nature of a true "bond" with dragons. If she wants them to be as effective as possible in a battle against the WW, I think they are going to need riders.

I think it is different. In the House of the Undying she said a word while her dragons were in earshot and they obeyed the command. In this case it seems she somehow telepathically commanded Viserion and Rhaegal to break down the wall of their prison and join her.  

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

I think it is different. In the House of the Undying she said a word while her dragons were in earshot and they obeyed the command. In this case it seems she somehow telepathically commanded Viserion and Rhaegal to break down the wall of their prison and join her.  

They were freed from their chains in episode... 2, was it? And they were freed from their chains because imprisonment made them refuse to eat, right? But even without their chains, they are still imprisoned if they remain inside of their prison... So did Rhaegel and Viserion really spent the entire season in their prison? 

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I don't think she "controlled" them any more than she controlled Drogon back in one of the earliest seasons when she said "Dracaerys" and he burned the magician in Qarth (don't remember all the details, but I think most people who have watched the show know the sceneI am referencing). Sure, the dragons saw what Drogon was doing and are loyal to Dany and Drogon -- so they joined in -- but I did not take the action as Dany "controlling" them in the nature of a true "bond" with dragons. If she wants them to be as effective as possible in a battle against the WW, I think they are going to need riders.

Nope. She controlled far more than Drogon in previous seasons. They followed her and responded to her calling. Dragon rider are not needed and in fact it might be for the best. It would looks silly and D&D love Kit in battlefield. Tyrion is important for logistics, counselling, tactics. Also it's getting too late for it. Tyrion might be a Targaryen but that doesn't mean he wil ride a dragon because of it. He could be family to Daeny,thing she misses the most.

[RumHam]

30 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

They were freed from their chains in episode... 2, was it? And they were freed from their chains because imprisonment made them refuse to eat, right? But even without their chains, they are still imprisoned if they remain inside of their prison... So did Rhaegel and Viserion really spent the entire season in their prison? 

Yeah, at least that's my understanding. I think if they were set free it would have at least been mentioned.  And the Master guy did say they planned to kill the dragons under the great pyramid. I would have loved to get at least a mention of how dangerous it must have been to feed them once they were unchained. It seems odd they didn't just break the walls on their own. So I tend to think Daenerys told them to do that with her wargish link to them that she apparently has in the show. 

[MakeThemBurn]

11 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah literally everything Martin has established indicates Dany cannot control all three dragons and the other two will have riders.  This was clearly show only in my book.

I strongly disagree. Dany can not control any of the dragons in the books and it has everything to do with her denying her violent dragon side out of fear of being mad like Aerys. That was the whole point of the Mereen arc. At the end of ADWD she finally gave in and Drogon returned to her. Both in book 3 and 5 it's mentioned that the shares a bond with the other dragons aswell. They sense when she's near and share her emotions. When she's angry, all of them are angry. So it's safe to assume that she's able to control the other two now that she connected with Drogon.

 

There won't be three dragonriders. But there was supposed to be. And this is where the aggressive Jon fans enter because I strongly believe Dany is a child of three as in the last of Rhaegar's children (Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya). After the Lannisters slaughtered Aegon and Rhaenys, only Visenya, the woman we know as Daenerys, is left to carry on the destiny of the three. Three heads had the dragon but only one remains. This is why the theme of three is so strong in her story. She and her three dragons represent of whatever power trio Rhaegar tried to set up.

[UnmaskedLurker]

6 hours ago, RumHam said:

I think it is different. In the House of the Undying she said a word while her dragons were in earshot and they obeyed the command. In this case it seems she somehow telepathically commanded Viserion and Rhaegal to break down the wall of their prison and join her.  

I just don't think it is that clear. Unless the producers clarify that she does have such a mental link, I believe it can be attributed more to loyalty and affection than actual control. Dragons are supposed to be smart and then can tell what she wanted -- so they responded, but I did not see definitive evidence of an actual "link" to the other two.

[RumHam]

57 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I just don't think it is that clear. Unless the producers clarify that she does have such a mental link, I believe it can be attributed more to loyalty and affection than actual control. Dragons are supposed to be smart and then can tell what she wanted -- so they responded, but I did not see definitive evidence of an actual "link" to the other two.

Oh I agree it's not clear. But I think it's more likely the writers are going for a level of control like the Starks have over their wolves than that the dragons somehow heard her through the walls of the great pyramid and suddenly figured out they could escape on their own. That would be dumb, but I still don't rule it out. It wouldn't be the first time the show did something I thought made little sense. 

[Lord Friendzone]

7 hours ago, MakeThemBurn said:

I strongly disagree. Dany can not control any of the dragons in the books and it has everything to do with her denying her violent dragon side out of fear of being mad like Aerys. That was the whole point of the Mereen arc. At the end of ADWD she finally gave in and Drogon returned to her. Both in book 3 and 5 it's mentioned that the shares a bond with the other dragons aswell. They sense when she's near and share her emotions. When she's angry, all of them are angry. So it's safe to assume that she's able to control the other two now that she connected with Drogon.

 

There won't be three dragonriders. But there was supposed to be. And this is where the aggressive Jon fans enter because I strongly believe Dany is a child of three as in the last of Rhaegar's children (Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya). After the Lannisters slaughtered Aegon and Rhaenys, only Visenya, the woman we know as Daenerys, is left to carry on the destiny of the three. Three heads had the dragon but only one remains. This is why the theme of three is so strong in her story. She and her three dragons represent of whatever power trio Rhaegar tried to set up.

I agree about dragonriders but not about Dany..What kind of proof do you have that she is his daughter? We have nothing on the show that indicats that and in fact clues leads us to Jon. His mother is the mystery. Ashara was cut from the show, random woman wouldn't be someone Ned would refuse to told him about. It has to be someone noble and important. They couldn't be twins due to different time of birth. I know you want desperately for Daeny to be his daughter but the story put a great weight into that Daeny is the last 100% Targaryen. 

Spoilers.

In the season finale we got TOJ and then Jon scene following afterwards. Hinting he is the one that was born there.

[Lord Friendzone]

6 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I just don't think it is that clear. Unless the producers clarify that she does have such a mental link, I believe it can be attributed more to loyalty and affection than actual control. Dragons are supposed to be smart and then can tell what she wanted -- so they responded, but I did not see definitive evidence of an actual "link" to the other two.

Why is that we need other dragonriders? Jon and Tyrion can be useful in different ways. Even D&D acknowledge Kit skills on the battlefield and we're gonna need someone to lead people from the ground as one of them. The whole story of Jon on the show, even being stripped of warging abilities is that he leads people as one of their own, he does what they do, he goes and fight on the battlefield. He faces struggle as one of them. Having him riding a dragon would take that element off from him. Jon is a fighter, not a dragonrider. He would be much less reletable. In fact even his resurrection was quiet one, Daeny's was spectacle. There is a reason for it.

[MakeThemBurn]

5 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

I agree about dragonriders but not about Dany..What kind of proof do you have that she is his daughter? We have nothing on the show that indicats that and in fact clues leads us to Jon. His mother is the mystery. Ashara was cut from the show, random woman wouldn't be someone Ned would refuse to told him about. It has to be someone noble and important. They couldn't be twins due to different time of birth. I know you want desperately for Daeny to be his daughter but the story put a great weight into that Daeny is the last 100% Targaryen. 

Spoilers.

 

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In the season finale we got TOJ and then Jon scene following afterwards. Hinting he is the one that was born there.

 

I'm not sure which season finale you are talking about. But the same logic could be applied to hint that it's Dany since the show cut straight to her after Bran's vision of Ned in the Tower of joy this season. Plus, I'm not claiming they are twins. GRRM told that they have an age gap of 8 months, which is just enough for them to be siblings. But true, the show hasn't shrouded Dany's past in a veil of mystery as the books have. My theory is based solely on the symbolism, themes and clues surrounding Dany's story in the books.

[RumHam]

5 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Why is that we need other dragonriders? Jon and Tyrion can be useful in different ways. Even D&D acknowledge Kit skills on the battlefield and we're gonna need someone to lead people from the ground as one of them. The whole story of Jon on the show, even being stripped of warging abilities is that he leads people as one of their own, he does what they do, he goes and fight on the battlefield. He faces struggle as one of them. Having him riding a dragon would take that element off from him. Jon is a fighter, not a dragonrider. He would be much less reletable. In fact even his resurrection was quiet one, Daeny's was spectacle. There is a reason for it.

Wait, when was Daenerys ever resurrected? 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Wait, What ?

Dany was not resurrected nor is she Rhaegar's daughter.

[Lord Friendzone]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Wait, when was Daenerys ever resurrected? 

In the documentary of episode 3 and 4 they said that Jon and Daeny mirror each other by by being reborn, resurrected. This was the season of being reborn. Reborn should've been the right word to use for Dany. They did that on purpose and contrast between them. One quiet and other spectacle.

[RumHam]

44 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

In the documentary of episode 3 and 4 they said that Jon and Daeny mirror each other by by being reborn, resurrected. This was the season of being reborn. Reborn should've been the right word to use for Dany. They did that on purpose and contrast between them. One quiet and other spectacle.

Ah ok I must have missed that one. Were they referring to the pyre or to the Dothraki tent thing this season? 

Another thing I was thinking about, Sunday's episode pretty much confirmed Cersei's plan was to use the wildfire. But I'm also pretty sure Varys returned to Westeros so he and the little birds introduced earlier this season could take out Kevan, Pycelle and possibly Qyburn. So maybe Cersei's plan won't horribly backfire and only the sept will burn? It seems pointless to have Varys kill these people if they were going burn anyway. Though maybe they would have escaped the flames if Varys wasn't there. I dunno. But I do know this. If they burn the city down without addressing whether Gendry made it out I'm going to be sad! 

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, RumHam said:

Ah ok I must have missed that one. Were they referring to the pyre or to the Dothraki tent thing this season? 

Another thing I was thinking about, Sunday's episode pretty much confirmed Cersei's plan was to use the wildfire. But I'm also pretty sure Varys returned to Westeros so he and the little birds introduced earlier this season could take out Kevan, Pycelle and possibly Qyburn. So maybe Cersei's plan won't horribly backfire and only the sept will burn? It seems pointless to have Varys kill these people if they were going burn anyway. Though maybe they would have escaped the flames if Varys wasn't there. I dunno. But I do know this. If they burn the city down without addressing whether Gendry made it out I'm going to be sad! 

Dothraki tent. Sackheim mentioned that he looked into history about resurrection when he planned Jon and Daeny scenes Reinessance painting and his favourite one was Caravaggio. Like one baby being born in the cold, naked and other one through fire naked. Ice and Fire.

Cersei and wildfire is inevitable with all the flashbacks about wildfire and being it mentioned in this episode by Tyrion. It's her biggest weapon but question is. Will she used it only on Sept of Baelor, Red Keep or like big part of city? Varys will secure alliances for Daeny whether Dorne or Tyrells. Him killing Kevan and Pycelle will go to Cersei. I imagine Margaery, Tommen, High Sparrow, Lancel, Loras will all go. They said that a lot of characters wil die in the season finale and I heard spoiler about Tommen. Also Arya, Jaime, Walder Frey arcs. Like clearout before the battle of dawn. Finale is packed and a lot of scenes.

[RumHam]

3 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Dothraki tent. Sackheim mentioned that he looked into history about resurrection when he planned Jon and Daeny scenes reinessance painting and his favourite one was Caravaggio. Like one baby being born in the cold, naked and other one through fire naked. Ice and Fire.

Cersei and wildfire is inevitable with all the flashbacks about wildfire and being it mentioned in this episode by Tyrion. It's her biggest weapon but question is. Will she used it only on Sept of Baelor, Red Keep or like big part of city? Varys will secure alliances for Daeny whether Dorne or Tyrells. Him killing Kevan and Pycelle will go to Cersei. I imagine Margaery, Tommen, High Sparrow, Lancel, Loras will all go. They said that a lot of characters wil die in the season finale and I heard spoiler about Tommen. Also Arya, Jaime, Walder Frey. Like clearout before the battle of dawn. Finale is packed and a lot of scenes.

I don't see Cersei killing Kevan and Pycelle, only because they finally actually showed us the little birds earlier this season. I can think of no other reason for them to show the little birds instead of just telling us Qyburn thought he had control of them. I'm quite sure we'll see them again in the finale, wielding knives. 

[DMC]

On 6/20/2016 at 9:24 PM, UnmaskedLurker said:

I just don't think it is that clear. Unless the producers clarify that she does have such a mental link, I believe it can be attributed more to loyalty and affection than actual control. Dragons are supposed to be smart and then can tell what she wanted -- so they responded, but I did not see definitive evidence of an actual "link" to the other two.

I don't know.  Watching it again there's a clear shot of Rhaegal and Viserion breaking out of their "prison" (for lack of a better term) and joining Drogon/Dany right as the latter fly by.  In addition, immediately beforehand Drogon comes to pick up Dany exactly when she wants him to.  It's certainly true that they may never bother to explain why/how this bond is made on the show, but the only reasonable explanation I can come up with is the other two either have a bond with Drogon, Dany, or both.  Which, as I think most can agree here, will not be how it works in the books.

[UnmaskedLurker]

39 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I don't know.  Watching it again there's a clear shot of Rhaegal and Viserion breaking out of their "prison" (for lack of a better term) and joining Drogon/Dany right as the latter fly by.  In addition, immediately beforehand Drogon comes to pick up Dany exactly when she wants him to.  It's certainly true that they may never bother to explain why/how this bond is made on the show, but the only reasonable explanation I can come up with is the other two either have a bond with Drogon, Dany, or both.  Which, as I think most can agree here, will not be how it works in the books.

Drogon picking up Dany is consistent and it seems clear they have the "bond" more or less similar to how it is described in the books. Not clear exactly what was the signal for the other two to break out -- but once the did, it would not take a mental bond for them to know to join in on the mission with Drogon. Clearly the dragons are loyal to Dany and each other -- but that has been true the entire series.