[Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.3

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

It was hammered time and time again in the books and show that Rhaegar and Lyanna had an affair and he was obsessed with prophecy and since Elia couldn't have another child. He was set on on this

The show? No mention of Rhaegar's interest in prophecy. Robert does say Rhaegar and his entire family deserve death for what he did to Lyanna. And Oberyn's states that Rhaegar left Elia for another women--no mention of prophecy or another child or any specifics. Hard to call that "hammering."

Books? Dany's vision of Rhaegar and Elia and then he seems to look at Dany (which is interesting) and says there must be one more. References the prophecy. Again, not much of a hammer. We can be pretty sure Rhaegar wanted a third child--but there were other ways to get one than taking Lyanna.

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Barry saying Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, died with a name of woman he loved on his lips. He didn't hated Elia but loved her neither.

Yup! Barristan thinks that--and then never elaborates. Jaime, who spent time with Rhaegar, too, brings up nothing re: Lyanna. Same with JonCon. Not a lot of info. Just inference.

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Hiding that Arthur Dayne is his father makes very title sense.

Why? Why wouldn't Jon be in danger? Or Ned want to delay telling Jon the truth about how he and Howland killed Jon's dad?

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Yes, he was fighting for Targaryens and yes he was Rhaegar's best friend but he clearly said Rhaegar wanted to be there. It was his command.

Agreed. Absolutely. We just need to find out why that was Rhaegar's command. Could ABSOLUTELY be because Rhaegar is the father of Lyanna's child. But could also be something else.

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Just because Dawn was focused for a few seconds doesn't mean Arthur is his father.

Agreed. But the camera hit Dawn a few times. Made a point of it. Something about that hunk of metal matters.

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Some people took it as that it's a bleeding star. Dawn wasmade out of fallen star and a lot of blood around.

Possible. I couldn't find a bleeding star statement--only Mel saying that darkness would come and stars would bleed. Can you think of where in the show they talk about being born under the bleeding star? I looked but failed to find the show's reference.

Though, given the suddenness of some of the reveals this season, I could see them waiting to bring put the prophecies until next season.

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What am really interested if the girl who handd baby Jon to Ned was Wylla. And if Howland went there too.

Amen!  I'm assuming the one we actually got to see was Wylla. And I'm wondering if we'll get the scene where she agrees to lie and say she's Jon's mother. Could be very interesting.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Mandzipop said:

It is using the official HBO logo, it has clearly been running for a long time. If it was fake HBO would have pulled it. It has the HBO copyright and terms of use. It states it is the official making of game of thrones site. http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/

It is also on the official Game of Thrones facebook page.

So, the idea is that the showrunners deliberately muffled most of Lyanna's words and didn't tell their actors what she said and are having them say they don't know in interviews BUT then decided to reveal the whole thing on a blog graphic????

The same showrunners who lied to us for a year re: Jon's level of eternal deadness?

I know the show makes some completely insane moves, but this beggars the imagination.

Or--the guys who do the blog have some autonomy. And put up what they think. A theory with a ton of credence. One very likely to hold true. But not yet confirmed by the show.

2 hours ago, Leticia Stark said:

It's a blog OWNED by HBO, so yeah...

The same HBO that told us Jon was eternally dead?

1 hour ago, princess_snow said:

That's hilarious and wonderful.

Indeed it is. 

53 minutes ago, princess_snow said:

es I agree. I can see where sly wren is coming from theyre valid points, but I'm def on team Rhaegar here. 

Completely fair. And plenty of reason in both the show and the books to choose that team.

[princess_snow]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

So, the idea is that the showrunners deliberately muffled most of Lyanna's words and didn't tell their actors what she said and are having them say they don't know in interviews BUT then decided to reveal the whole thing on a blog graphic????

The same showrunners who lied to us for a year re: Jon's level of eternal deadness?

I know the show makes some completely insane moves, but this beggars the imagination.

Or--the guys who do the blog have some autonomy. And put up what they think. A theory with a ton of credence. One very likely to hold true. But not yet confirmed by the show.

The same HBO that told us Jon was eternally dead?

Indeed it is. 

Completely fair. And plenty of reason in both the show and the books to choose that team.

Do you think Jon was literally born as Arthur was killed ?

[Weirdo]

This is all a lot of fun, but really, if the show plans to reveal that Arthur is Jon's father, why doesn't Lyanna ask Ned what happened in the fighting? If Ned has gotten through the defenses, surely that means there's a good chance that Arthur's dead. She doesn't even ask him, let alone show any sadness about it or reproach him. Because she doesn't particularly care about Rhaegar's guards dying in a fight with her brother.

[Consigliere]

Arthur is NOT the father. That much is 100% certain. Some fans have become far too attached to their pet theories and refuse to let go. These last few pages are a case in point. Best to just leave them to their delusions.

[Sly Wren]

9 hours ago, princess_snow said:

Do you think Jon was literally born as Arthur was killed ?

In the books? No.

On the show? *sigh* I would not put it past them. Even in season one--the books have Bran "see" Ned, Sansa, and Arya all miserable at the Trident, right around the time Ned kills Lady. But on the show: Ned stabs Lady and Bran's eyes pop open. NOT subtly telling us that Lady's death and Bran's waking are connected.

Throw in Brienne's staggeringly good timing on both Stannis and Sansa, Baelish's jetpack and all the rest of it--yes, cheesy as it would be, I could, sadly, see them do just that. 

[Sly Wren]

9 hours ago, Weirdo said:

This is all a lot of fun, but really, if the show plans to reveal that Arthur is Jon's father, why doesn't Lyanna ask Ned what happened in the fighting? If Ned has gotten through the defenses, surely that means there's a good chance that Arthur's dead. She doesn't even ask him, let alone show any sadness about it or reproach him. Because she doesn't particularly care about Rhaegar's guards dying in a fight with her brother.

Well, if Rhaegar's men were keeping her against her will, she arguably should ask if they are finally gone.

If Rhaegar's men are protecting her, she should arguably ask what happened to her protectors.

If she's Rhaegar's lover, she could arguably ask if he's really dead.

The show skips over a lot of conversations that it really seems like they should have. They waited an ENTIRE SEASON for Davos to confront Mel over Shireen.

So, sure--she might not care about Arthur at all. Completely possible.

Or, the show skipped to the "important" bit--what to do with her child--because Lyanna's figured out that she is dying.

[UnmaskedLurker]

@Sly Wren--

I really don't think that the show is trying to hide that Rhaegar is the father. I am not sure it even occurred to them that anyone would conclude that anyone else could be the father. I tend to think that the purpose of the "whisper" is that for some reason the producers think that the reveal that Jon's real name is "Aemon" is some sort of great "reveal" that they want to keep for a later date. Unless there was a part of the conversation between Ned and Lyanna before the scene started, the only part of the conversation we could not make out was the name. It was one continuous scene -- so we know that what she said was "His name is . . . " She then goes on to say "You have to protect him. If Robert finds out, he'll kill him. You know he will. Promise me, Ned. Promise me." And then she dies. Only the name was too muffled to hear or make out. The rest we could. So she does not discuss the events leading up to her being in the tower or whether she was married. 

But there were other people in that tower (servants) who presumably did fill in Ned and Howland on the rest of the relevant facts. So once again, we are all waiting for the introduction of Howland Reed. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

If you watch Season 1 Episode 1 it is all VERY clearly explained by Robert and Ned.  Rhaegar and Lyanna took off together, Rhaegar is named several times. Robert swears vengeance on all Taragryens because of Rhaegar.    Abduction or not, Rhaegar is the father.  A 3 year old could pick up on this easily.

[Consigliere]

Exactly.

The show has only ever set up one viable candidate as Jon's father. Also, if AD is the father, it makes no sense that Lyanna would be afraid of Robert killing the child. Honestly I don't know how this is even a debate.

[TWR]

My last hope is R+L=J isn't some star-crossed love story, but is the story of a naive girl who falls for the charasmatic older guy who turns out to be a prophecy obsessed psycho who views her more as a brood mare than a soul mate. If it turns out they were in love then Jon=Aragorn & this has just turned into LOTR with sex & foul language for me.

[Lord Friendzone]

26 minutes ago, TWR said:

My last hope is R+L=J isn't some star-crossed love story, but is the story of a naive girl who falls for the charasmatic older guy who turns out to be a prophecy obsessed psycho who views her more as a brood mare than a soul mate. If it turns out they were in love then Jon=Aragorn & this has just turned into LOTR with sex & foul language for me.

Either way it was irresponsible from them and their love cost thousands of lives. Not exactly happy thought for Jon. I suppose it could be that he was obsessed with prophecy but also fall in love with her. He could've choose other woman.

 

36 minutes ago, Les Diables Rouges said:

Exactly.

The show has only ever set up one viable candidate as Jon's father. Also, if AD is the father, it makes no sense that Lyanna would be afraid of Robert killing the child. Honestly I don't know how this is even a debate.

People are now speculating with Arthur, Aerys or even Robert himself. It will be until show will confirm it on screen in a dialog or scene. Until then people will come up with theories but whenever was Lyanna mentioned, Rhaegar was too. What I would like to know if they were married.

With mother too because hardly Jon's mom would be wetnurse or some tavern girl. No need to hide her identity. Well, Wylla was a cover story. Wouldn't surprise me if that woman who handed Jon to Ned was Wylla. They offered us only one good option and that was Lyanna up until 6x10 where it was confirmed that Lyanna is his mother.

[UnmaskedLurker]

35 minutes ago, TWR said:

My last hope is R+L=J isn't some star-crossed love story, but is the story of a naive girl who falls for the charasmatic older guy who turns out to be a prophecy obsessed psycho who views her more as a brood mare than a soul mate. If it turns out they were in love then Jon=Aragorn & this has just turned into LOTR with sex & foul language for me.

I think you are likely to have to give up this last hope. At least in the books, Rhaegar apparently died with Lyanna's name on his lips. I am fairly certain that we will find out (in both books and show) that they were truly in love and that they got married. The story is still fairly tragic, however, given that their decision to remain in hiding had such an incredibly unfortunate fall-out.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

really don't think that the show is trying to hide that Rhaegar is the father. I am not sure it even occurred to them that anyone would conclude that anyone else could be the father.

If this is the case, why does the director, when asked about Jon's father, specifically say that he could not talk about Jon's father?

And why do they have Bran's actor refusing to confirm either? http://watchersonthewall.com/isaac-hempstead-wright-robert-aramayo-discuss-tower-joy-game-thrones-endgame/

If they are assuming everyone knows, why are they having their director and actors specifically refuse to talk about it?

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I tend to think that the purpose of the "whisper" is that for some reason the producers think that the reveal that Jon's real name is "Aemon" is some sort of great "reveal" that they want to keep for a later date.

Very possible. But again--they are refusing to confirm or deny Jon's paternity. Opening refusing to confirm or deny. Sounds like that's still "hidden" on the show.

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

But there were other people in that tower (servants) who presumably did fill in Ned and Howland on the rest of the relevant facts. So once again, we are all waiting for the introduction of Howland Reed. 

Yes--I'm hoping since they gave us Howland we'll see him again. And that the woman in the tower whose face we actually saw was Wylla.

 

53 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

If you watch Season 1 Episode 1 it is all VERY clearly explained by Robert and Ned.  Rhaegar and Lyanna took off together, Rhaegar is named several times. Robert swears vengeance on all Taragryens because of Rhaegar.    Abduction or not, Rhaegar is the father.  A 3 year old could pick up on this easily.

And in season one episodes one and two, Robert clearly said he hated Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna.

And in the "Win or Die" episode in seasons one, Ned tells Cersei to take her non-Targaryen children as far away as possible "or Robert's wrath will follow you." That he, Ned, refuses to have the blood of her children on his hands.

And in Game, Ned tells Cersei the same--to take her children and flee:

 

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"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."

"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be." Game, Eddard XII

 

 

So, apparently both book and show Ned thoroughly believe that Cersei's non-Targaryen children are in danger from Robert's wrath. That Robert will actively hunt and kill them.

That's the source of the wrath in book and show: betrayal and loss. Not "dragonness."

[JGP]

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The show? No mention of Rhaegar's interest in prophecy. Robert does say Rhaegar and his entire family deserve death for what he did to Lyanna. And Oberyn's states that Rhaegar left Elia for another women--no mention of prophecy or another child or any specifics. Hard to call that "hammering."

In-show though:

i. Oberyn, in that very scene, describes Rhaegar as noble. Yes, he meant it sardonically as the 'noble' Rhaegar left his sister for another woman- but if I'm a showrunner and wanting to make it as divisive as possible I'm going to apply the 'noble' as pejorative to the abduction and rape of Lyanna as well. But Oberyn doesn't do that. He also mentions how many people died during the war that resulted from taking off with Lyanna, as others have done in-show. Which could be why [outside of Robert] the narrative was framed as it was. Propaganda. Don't feel bad for the Targaryen's or their children-- Rhaegar kidnapped a Stark and raped her repeatedly, causing this war where so many of you died!

 

13 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Books? Dany's vision of Rhaegar and Elia and then he seems to look at Dany (which is interesting) and says there must be one more. References the prophecy. Again, not much of a hammer. We can be pretty sure Rhaegar wanted a third child--but there were other ways to get one than taking Lyanna.

Books: 

What you've said all hinges on the presupposition that Rhaegar kidnapped her and his wish to adhere to prophecy was entirely calculation. The latter might be, but... Textually, in comparison to the show, there are even more indications that Rhaegar was thought more than well of, but was rather admired and loved by many. It even seems evident that he'd intended to supplant the Mad King. And, if one considers the possibility that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree at the Harrenhall tourney, there is a span of time between the Mystery Knight's disappearance, Aerys' sending Rhaegar to find the Knight because its presence made him paranoid... and Rhaegar's triumph to crown Lyanna instead of Elia.

I think he found her.

I mean, give it some thought. He's a crown prince that was well aware of his father's failings. There were thoughts he'd intended to meet with some nobles at the Harrenhall tourney and discuss a coup, but Varys [for some inexplicable reason] allegedly tipped the Mad King off-- hence Aerys surprising everyone by arriving late, ergo: motion defeated. Fast forward through whatever really happened that would motivate Rhaegar to bypass Elia. Add a willful Lyanna previously commenting on Robert's proclivities [dissatisfied with the match] who subsequently disappears. With Rhaegar. This could could add fuel to the idea that she was kidnapped. Conversely, if it were love would she really bother explaining to Lord Rickard anyway, or just do it and ask for forgiveness when it was too late to counteract instead? So Rickard, Brandon and a few others ride to King's Landing of all places, demand Lyanna back and get cooked by the Mad King.

Yet a pregnant Lyanna, at that point, is presumably enroute or ensconced at the ToJ with three Kingsguard [most notably the LC and Arthur Dayne who by all accounts took their vows very seriously, and a Whent of Harrenhall] who really had no reason to be there in a time of war, when they should've been with the King or at Rhaegar's side. Unless.

And Rhaegar [if Jaime's memory is to be believed] is later back in the capitol, determined to end the uprising at the Trident-- and comments that when he gets back a Great Council will be called and things will definitely be changing, i.e. his father the Mad King...   

It was handled very poorly, what happened with Lyanna-- but, as commented upon numerous times [in-show and the books] you don't choose who you love. Prophecy, in Rhaegar's mind, might very well have fallen to the wayside in light of everything that happened from Harrenhall on.

[TWR]

7 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I think you are likely to have to give up this last hope. At least in the books, Rhaegar apparently died with Lyanna's name on his lips. I am fairly certain that we will find out (in both books and show) that they were truly in love and that they got married. The story is still fairly tragic, however, given that their decision to remain in hiding had such an incredibly unfortunate fall-out.

Yeah, I've resigned myself to this, but I hold onto a fool's hope.

At this point I'm kinda happy we only have 13 episodes left, if there was another 3-4 seasons I'd probably just watch reviews to follow the story. As for the books, I'm under no illusions of ever reading an ending.

[Jô Maltese]

"Jaehaerys" and not "Aemon" apparently. Too bad, I was very much onboard the "Aemon" bandwagon.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4q9u0v/everything_his_name_is_the_true_meaning_of_j/ 

[UnmaskedLurker]

2 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

"Jaehaerys" and not "Aemon" apparently. Too bad, I was very much onboard the "Aemon" bandwagon.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/4q9u0v/everything_his_name_is_the_true_meaning_of_j/ 

You were convinced by that rambling? Not a chance that person actually saw "Jaehaerys" because the camera did not stay on Lyanna's lips long enough. We saw the first syllable and maybe half of the second syllable before the camera cut away (I watched it over and over again on you tube). Jaehaerys is a three syllable name. It would not be possible for anyone to see Lyanna mouth the name Jaehaerys. That person saw what he or she wanted to see (or is lying) and then wrote up an interesting enough post on reddit to go viral. 

But go to you tube and look for yourself (a bit before the 4 minute mark). To my eyes, I see what looks like a long "A" as the first syllable and then a cut away during the middle of the second syllable. But even if I am wrong, there is no way that camera remained on her lips for three syllables. My vote is still for Aemon.

Oh, and Jaeraerys would be a silly name for show purposes because show watchers know nothing about the past Kings who had the name Jaehaerys. The only Targ on the show that people know who could have a connection to Jon is Maester Aemon.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ agreed. NO way it's jaehaerys.

[Shmedricko]

Jaehaerys II doesn't even exist in show-canon. They simplified the Targaryen family tree so that Aerys II is the son of Aegon V. Jaehaerys I has been mentioned on the show ... once, in season 3 episode 9. Sam told Gilly that "The Watch abandoned [the Nightfort] during the reign of King Jaehaerys the First," and that's it.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/The_Rains_of_Castamere_(episode)

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This marks the first mention of Jaehaerys I Targaryen, who reigned some two centuries prior to the series. In the books, Jaehaerys II was the father of the Mad King and the son of Aegon V, making Jaehaerys II the nephew of Maester Aemon. Jaehaerys II has been removed from the TV continuity, apparently to simplify the relationship between Daenerys and Maester Aemon. Thus, in "Baelor," Maester Aemon tells Jon that Aerys II was his brother Aegon V's son.