George R.R. Martin said talk about it. So let's talk about it. V.2

[Borodin]

GRRM has a standard response to those who express concern over the show deviating too much from the books. He blogged it recently here:

How many children did Scarlett O'Hara have? Three, in the novel. One, in the movie. None, in real life: she was a fictional character, she never existed. The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story.

This response is inadequate and Martin appears to be sidestepping the problem completely.

Let's get one thing out of the way. When dealing with fictional accounts, “real life” is never the arbiter of story-telling continuity. It is only when we are dealing with biographies of historical figures that we look to “real life” for accuracy. When trying to establish the accuracy of fictional characters and plots, we have only the original source material to go on.

So allow me to provide a different answer to Martin’s initial question about how many children Scarlett O’Hara had: Scarlett O’Hara had three children. In fact, she had three children with three different fathers and this detail is not incidental; it is crucial to understanding both her character motivation and the story arc. The fact that she only has one child in the film adaptation means her arc and her motivations are lost because the film-makers decided to go off script.

A good retort to Martin would be to ask: “How many children does Catelyn Stark have?” or "How many children does Cersei Lannister have?" Would he be satisfied if the answer from the show-runners was “one”, you know, because these are just "two different tellings of the same story"? I don’t think so.

[artihcus022]

GRRM has a standard response to those who express concern over the show deviating too much from the books. He blogged it recently here:

This response is inadequate and Martin appears to be sidestepping the problem completely.

Well he is side-stepping the argument, he is leaving it to other writers and authors to make the argument for him and they all have been doing it and will continue to do it for him. He's written the books and he doesn't owe anyone more than that.

For one thing he's going to have to put up with people who bring out stupid arguments that statistically there are more rapes in the books than the show, those who argue that rape shouldn't be depicted likewise the arguments why is it okay for minor characters and not major characters. All the crazy false-arguments alongside the legitimate issues they have with them doing it to a character who did not go through with it in the books. It's too much work and GRRM probably doesn't want to do an Alan Moore-esque letter of vitriolic vindication and defense of authorial vision.

[Borodin]

I would very much like to see an argument as to why AFFC and ADWD is...

1) Impossible to adapt to TV.

2) Still worse that what we have seen so far in Season 5.

3) Peripheral or unecessary to the ASOIAF story.

I'll interpret silence as the absence of good arguments. :)

[lancerman]

Still no evidence that he dislikes the show or has an issue with the changes made.

[artihcus022]

I would very much like to see an argument as to why AFFC and ADWD is...

1) Impossible to adapt to TV.

Well from the very basic schema the showrunners have set up in earlier seasons i.e. every season has to have single character-specific arcs and have quirky duos to bounce of each other all the time (which is TV conventions rather than GRRM convention) and have a mini-climax at the end and that there has to be a big shocker at the end and the like, AFFC/ADWD is hard to adapt.

There's the fact that AFFC and ADWD are two books with one set of POVS in AFFC and another in ADWD* so for them as a showrunners that is a legitimate difficulty since its next to imposssible to convince their chiefs and hard to retain actors as well to tell some of them they have a season off.

That is the one argument in their favor but its actually a problem right from the beginning, the books exist on the principle that "there are no small parts only small actors", in a TV adaptation that's not true because all the actors have to be there all the time, even when they aren't needed. Theon Greyjoy is missing for all of Books 3 and 4 before we find him again in Book 5, but for the show, he has to spend one whole season tortured like an animal, which isn't a character-arc at all. So given this was a fundamental problem with the show they should have thought about it and planned for it at the start...which they clearly did not. So now its stop gap solution by stop gap solution and on and on it goes.

**Now personally I actually think George RR Martin did a great choice in dividing the POVs and I am not a big fan of going Feast/Dance and trying to sequence them in because both books have specific themes...Feast is about religion, post-war aftermath and women trying to come to power, while ADWD is about trying to reform, change and dealing with power politics.

[Borodin]

Still no evidence that he dislikes the show or has an issue with the changes made.

Yeah, he has come out and said he doesn't like that LSH was cut and intimates that these little changes in the show are going to end up creating huge problems.

[TheLeviathan73]

Huge "differences" is not the same as huge "problems". That's your spin, not his.

[Benjaario Starkharis]

I would very much like to see an argument as to why AFFC and ADWD is...

1) Impossible to adapt to TV.

This is a fair argument. With the number of different storylines happening at the same time (if we combined AFFC and ADWD) it would be impossible to adapt it well unless the show also split the show geographically like the books. If the show decided to keep all storylines in the same season and instead split the story chronologically, most arcs would end the season incomplete, and each season needs to have its own arc. So we would either have half of the cast missing for a season or most storylines being left without a conclusion to the arc of the season. Winterfell and the North in ADWD could almost have an entire season for itself with the material GRRM wrote.

[El Guapo]

George is not sidestepping anything. He has answered the question in that the books have their own canon and the show has theirs. They are different.

[Humble AK]

I don't think it's going too far out there to say GRRM is probably disappointed with how things have turned out. He obviously does not want the show to overtake the books and spoil things. He probably also doesn't accept the argument that books 4 and 5 are too slow, since he wanted them to be three seasons. The show runners disagreed and took an approach they felt preserved the quality of their show over adding everything in the books and stretching the show out 10+ seasons.

I'm not sure why so many people care what GRRM's opinion of the show is. I would think that important thing is whether it works for you or not. The author agreeing or disagreeing with you shouldn't affect your own opinion or that of others, I would think.

I think The Shining is a great movie, but Stephen King hated it. Stephen King did like the miniseries that was later made, and I hated that. I'm fine disagreeing with an author I like over the adaptation of their work.

[Borodin]

Well from the very basic schema the showrunners have set up in earlier seasons i.e. every season has to have single character-specific arcs and have quirky duos to bounce of each other all the time (which is TV conventions rather than GRRM convention) and have a mini-climax at the end and that there has to be a big shocker at the end and the like, AFFC/ADWD is hard to adapt.

Following the formula established in Season 1 isn't necessary. Nor is is necessarily the case that AFFC and ADWD cannot follow that formula. Difficult, maybe, but far from impossible.

There's the fact that AFFC and ADWD are two books with one set of POVS in AFFC and another in ADWD* so for them as a showrunners that is a legitimate difficulty since its next to imposssible to convince their chiefs and hard to retain actors as well to tell some of them they have a season off.

Bran disppearing for an entire season refutes this point.

That is the one argument in their favor but its actually a problem right from the beginning, the books exist on the principle that "there are no small parts only small actors", in a TV adaptation that's not true because all the actors have to be there all the time, even when they aren't needed.

Again, Bran disppeares for an entire season and no one's head is exploding.

[Borodin]

George is not sidestepping anything. He has answered the question in that the books have their own canon and the show has theirs. They are different.

He doesn't say that. He says they are "two different tellings of the same story", not two different universes based on the similar characters and similar plots.

[Borodin]

Huge "differences" is not the same as huge "problems". That's your spin, not his.

The metaphor of butterflies turning into dragons does not signal a mere difference, it signals the emergence of a problem.

[Ojji]

Why was the first topic closed in the first place? Was it breaking some rules or what?

Locking the topic and not saying a word is a pretty shitty way to go about it.

[Joe Pesci]

Yeah, he has come out and said he doesn't like that LSH was cut and intimates that these little changes in the show are going to end up creating huge problems.

Who are they going to create problems for though? The show has already veered away from the books enough now (not going to address all that in this) and has lost its "faithful adaptation" branding after s3 by most accounts, so splitting hairs over things is moot at this point. The show has no books to follow anymore, and whatever they do going forward we will not have the luxury to compare show and book. So how the little changes the show has made and their overall affects will not be known until the books are finished and we can compare them to one another, thus not making it a problem for the show going forward. The show is on its own for bad or good. I think the problem may be for GRRM and whether or not what the show does makes him alter anything he was planning. Just my thoughts though.

[Borodin]

Why was the first topic closed in the first place? Was it breaking some rules or what? Locking the topic and not saying a word is a pretty shitty way to go about it.

Good question. Perhaps it was making too many waves.

[Joe Pesci]

There's the fact that AFFC and ADWD are two books with one set of POVS in AFFC and another in ADWD* so for them as a showrunners that is a legitimate difficulty since its next to imposssible to convince their chiefs and hard to retain actors as well to tell some of them they have a season off.

Bran disppearing for an entire season refutes this point.

I think that the point was that if the show were to do it like the books, the outcry would be the fact that half the main cast would be off of the show for an entire season. Keeping Bran off is one thing, but going a season w/o Jon, Dany or Tyrion would cripple the show. Yes, we would get the characters from Feast that we readers all enjoy so much, but the casual show fan that hasn't read the books,and makes the majority of the viewership would shit bricks.

[Borodin]

I think that the point was that if the show were to do it like the books, the outcry would be the fact that half the main cast would be off of the show for an entire season. Keeping Bran off is one thing, but going a season w/o Jon, Dany or Tyrion would cripple the show. Yes, we would get the characters from Feast that we readers all enjoy so much, but the casual show fan that hasn't read the books,and makes the majority of the viewership would shit bricks.

Recall that they killed off Ned Stark in Season 1, and Cateyln and Robb Stark in Season 3. Three major characters gone, yet people still watched - they watched more in fact. They watched because the show introduced new characters, like Oberyn, a fan favourite, which kept us all interested. Then they killed him. And we still watched. Because audiences understand that there will be other characters, some of them brand new, to carry the show. Not to mention minor players like Drogo, Ygrette, Robert and Renly Baratheon, Jojen, Shea, etc... Lots of fan favourites gone. We're still watching.

[Cas Stark]

Recall that they killed off Ned Stark in Season 1, and Cateyln and Robb Stark in Season 3. Three major characters gone, yet people still watched - they watched more in fact. They watched because the show introduced new characters, like Oberyn, a fan favourite, which kept us all interested. Then they killed him. And we still watched. Because audiences understand that there will be other characters, some of them brand new, to carry the show.

No, you can't do that. You can't have the same people missing on the show as you did in Feast. It's one thing to introduce a new character, among an existing set, it's another to take away the majority of favorite characters and then introduce a bunch of new ones.

If you took away Walt, Jesse and Gus for a year, what do you think would have happened to Breaking Bad? Or Tony Soprano took a hike for a year?

You cannot not have Jon, Dany and Tyrion. It's already annoying viewers that Stormborn is still in Meereen.

[artihcus022]

Recall that they killed off Ned Stark in Season 1, and Cateyln and Robb Stark in Season 3. Three major characters gone, yet people still watched - they watched more in fact. They watched because the show introduced new characters, like Oberyn, a fan favourite, which kept us all interested. Then they killed him. And we still watched. Because audiences understand that there will be other characters, some of them brand new, to carry the show. Not to mention minor players like Drogo, Ygrette, Robert and Renly Baratheon, Jojen, Shea, etc... Lots of fan favourites gone. We're still watching.

That's not really the same thing. Killing Ned and Catelyn, Tywin is not the same as saying we are doing an entire season without Tyrion. What was he upto at the end of Season 4 after escaping KL, wait fo two years to find out?

Look, I read the books after ADWD so I can appreciate AFFC but I can imagine it musy have been agony for readers to wait that long to find out what Tyrion, Jon and Dany were up to.