The Laughing Storm's daughter and Celia Tully

[Lord Varys]

If I remember correctly then the Baratheon family tree is really confusing during the time of the Dunk & Egg stories as there is talk in THK, I think, about Lord Baratheon celebrating the birth of a grandchild a few years before Ashford. This could suggest that Lyonel is not, in fact, Lord Baratheon's eldest son, and may turn out to come to Storm's End only after his brother and nephews die (which could happen during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion),

Lyonel is somewhat young but my guess of him being at least twenty is just a guess - he could actually already nearing thirty as his remark about wanting to tweak Prince Maekar suggests that he is old enough to have some grudges.

Princess Rhaelle is also the youngest child of Aegon V and apparently born rather late as she was not included in the matches made in 237 AC, and ends up being sent to Storm's End as a cupbearer in 239 AC, which suggests she was perhaps only about ten years or so by then.

Since we know that Duncan was betrothed to Lyonel's daughter this could mean that this daughter was one of his youngest children (born around 220 AC to be roughly the same age as Duncan) while Ormund would be the son of a son of Lyonel who was either already alive in 209 AC (if Lyonel was already married by then) or shortly born thereafter. He could then easily be old enough to father Ormund around 230 AC.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps, at the time of the Ashford tourney, Lyonel was a grandson to the Lord Baratheon... I can't check right now, has he been described as Lord Baratheon's son in THK?

That would make the grandson whose birth was celebrated a few years before either Lyonels (much) younger brother, or a child of a younger son of Lord Baratheon.

Edit: Lyonel was dead by the time Ormund wed Rhaelle in 245 AC.. So him having been in his twenties/early thirties in 209 AC could fit..

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Good stuff here. Nice catch on Ormund being Lyonel's heir, not necessarily son.

Don't forget that the Great Spring Sickness might have taken out several people relevant to this subject.

[Bael's Bastard]

I agree that Ormund not being stated to be his son is a good catch. Could still turn out to be, but there are other possibilities.

[Hardstone]

I can't find my copy but I remember at the back of the Hedge Knight graphic novel, it has sigils for all the main characters. Lyonel is stated to be the Heir to Storm's End.

[Fat Mac]

I have it in my headcanon that Lyonel is the elder brother of Gowen Baratheon, who married Tya Lannister around 208 AC. Gowen is stated to be a third son, so it's likely he was Lyonels brother, which makes it odd that we don't hear about Lyonel having a wife in any of the D&E novellas.

[Lord Varys]

Celia is out of the race for Hoster's mother. Cat remembers in AGoT that her father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were named in the sept of Riverrun, making it quite clear that the Hoster's two predecessors as Lord of Riverrun were male.

[Fat Mac]

Celia is out of the race for Hoster's mother. Cat remembers in AGoT that her father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were named in the sept of Riverrun, making it quite clear that the Hoster's two predecessors as Lord of Riverrun were male.

Good catch. On first reading I assumed Celia was an older sister or something, but she'd have to be much older to make that work, and Hosters father was likely young when he was born. Aunt seems to work best.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Celia is out of the race for Hoster's mother. Cat remembers in AGoT that her father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were named in the sept of Riverrun, making it quite clear that the Hoster's two predecessors as Lord of Riverrun were male.

But wasn´t that logical? Walder Frey mentions the five Lords of Riverrun he has known, With Edmure being the fifth.. The point of his tale being that he has outlived that many rulers of Riverrun.. If Celia had ever ruled Riverrun, surely Walder would have mentioned her as well?

Celia was betrothed to Jaehaerys (b. 225 AC) in 237 AC. This betrothal was broken in 240 AC, thus three years later, when Jaehaersy was 15.

Looking at the Lords of Riverrun, we have seen four out of five Lords mentioned by Walder. The first is Lord Medgar Tully, who fights in the Ashford Tourney in 209 AC (Walder himself was born in 208 AC).. The second lord is Medgar's son, the unnamed Lord Tully who is only years old in 212 AC (mentioned in TMK), meaning this boy was born in 204 AC (turning 8 in 212 AC) or 203 AC (8 turning 9 in 212 AC).

This boy's successor is not mentioned (yet), but we do know that, as Edmure (b. 267 - 274) is the fifth Lord of Riverrun Walder had known, and thus Hoster was the fourth. Hoster was born in between 237 AC and 240 AC.

So we have

#1 Medgar

#2 Medgar's unnamed son

#3 Mystery Tully

#4 Hoster

#5 Edmure

Lord #2 was born in 203/204 AC, and Lord #4 was born in 237/238/239/240 AC. That leaves 33 to 37 years inbetween these two births. Sounds logical that Lord #3, Mystery Tully, was born in the middle of this range, most likely. That would place his birth roughly around 220 AC, with #2 having been around 17 years old at #3's birth, and #3 having been about 17 years old at Hoster's birth.

There is some wiggle room, of course.. Medgar's son had no brothers or uncles, apparently (he was surrounded by women), so it is possible he began to father children as soon as he could in order to secure the Tully line, leaving the possibility for his own son to have been a bit older than 17 when Hoster was born.

Place Celia in this. Betrothed in 237 AC, not yet married in 240 AC.. Perhaps her wedding was supposed to occur soon, making that the cause of Jaehaerys and Shaera's decision to elope when they did.. Perhaps the marriage was to take place a year or a few later.. We don't know.

However, Celia, the daughter of the Lord of Riverrun, most likely was at least reasonably close in age to Jaehaerys (who was 15 when he broke the betrothal in 240 AC). She might have been a few years younger, she might have been a few years older..

With all of this in mind, if I had to make a guess, I'd say that Celia was the daughter of Lord #2 (Medgar's unnamed son), and therefore a sister to Lord #3, and thus an aunt to Hoster.

If she was multiple years older than Jaehaerys, she would have been born way too early to have been a daughter of Lord #3. And if she was a few years younger than Jaehaerys (say, only 10 in 237 AC, placing her birth in 227 AC), that would still make her birth occur too late, I think, for her to have been the daughter of Lord #3.

We know that #1 (Medgar) was succeeded by his son (#2), and we know that that son had no uncles or nephews and most likely no brothers either (surrounded by women). Further, we know that Hoster's father had been Lord of Riverrun before him, and with Lord #2 having had no male relatives but his own sons, and Hoster (#4) having succeeded his own father (#3), the mysterious Tully whose name we still have to learn would have been Medgar's grandson.

[Lord Varys]

Well, Walder's word is one thing, knowing that there was no Lady Tully in Celia's days in another. Not sure why Walder would have to mentioned a Lady Tully or couldn't sum her up among all the Lords Tully he has met, or simply omit her because he never liked having a female liege...

I'd also not be sure we have a smooth father-son transition from Medgar and his son to Hoster. All we know is that Hoster's father and grandfather have been named in the sept of Riverrun, not that they also ruled as Lords of Riverrun. Hoster's father or grandfather could have been from a younger branch who only took over after the actual heir died prematurely, etc.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

A younger son of Medgar's son would have been born even later, which kind of keeps my original point.. That Celia seems to have been an aunt to Hoster (her father was still alive in 237 AC, so she wasn't Medgar's daughter, which would also make her too old to be betrothed to Prince Jaehaerys, anyway).

If Medgar had two sons (no younger sons are mentioned), this boy would have been even younger in 212 AC. making the age gap in between Hoster and this ancestor even smaller.

If you suppose it was not a younger son of Medgar, but a younger son of his son (#2) who was Lord #3, the same principle remains.. the age gap becomes smaller, and Celia's position as Hoster's aunt more and more logical.

Why would Walder omit her?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Don't we know that during one of the D&E story, Lord Tully (Medgar's son?) was a boy and he was surrendered by the women of House Tully? Celia might be among them...

Lord Walder's wording would still work imo. He can omit her or just count her amongt the lords. We know that people refer two princesses and a prince when they talk about the Red Princes.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Don't we know that during one of the D&E story, Lord Tully (Medgar?) was a boy and he was surrendered by the women of House Tully? Celia might be among them...

Lord Walder's wording would still work imo. He can omit her or just count her amongt the lords. We know that people refer two princesses and a prince when they talk about the Red Princes.

Yeah, that's the #2 in my count from above.. 8 years old in 212 AC, surrounded by women.

If Celia was one of those women, even if she was only a child herself, she would have been mid-20 to 30 when betrothed to Jaehaerys.. IMO, that's very unlikely.

[Lord Varys]

I don't want to make a Tully family tree. My point simply was that all we know for a certainty is that Catelyn's grandfather and great-grandfather were named in the sept of Riverrun as Tullys. Not that they ruled as Lords of Riverrun. They could have been of a cadet branch all along, going back to, say, Medgar's younger brother.

[The Wondering Wolf]

I have it in my headcanon that Lyonel is the elder brother of Gowen Baratheon, who married Tya Lannister around 208 AC. Gowen is stated to be a third son, so it's likely he was Lyonels brother, which makes it odd that we don't hear about Lyonel having a wife in any of the D&E novellas.

Hmm, I do not really understand why that would be that odd. Why would it be mentioned? In think it's also not mentioned that Lord Leo Tyrell is married. ;-)

[Fat Mac]

Hmm, I do not really understand why that would be that odd. Why would it be mentioned? In think it's also not mentioned that Lord Leo Tyrell is married. ;-)

Well, maybe not in D&E specifically. But Lyonel seems to be the most important historical Baratheon, with the exception of Orys, and a lot of times the details are provided unless there's an intentionally kept mystery. With all this Baratheon business, such as Ormund not necessarily being Lyonel's son but possibly his grandson, I just find it weird that Lyonel is never mentioned having a son or a wife, even though we know he has kids. Idk, maybe it's just me :p. I definitely would have liked a Baratheon family tree, going as far back as at least Lyonel, so some of this business could be cleared up.