Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 When Jon says we were overrun by WW's etc, well he has proved to be a wildlings sympathizer and untrustworthy. They don't need his word. They have thousands of injured wildlings, many of them injured, each of them having seen a fucking Ice Wizard raise their family members from the dead, fleeing south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 They don't need his word. They have thousands of injured wildlings, many of them injured, each of them having seen a fucking Ice Wizard raise their family members from the dead, fleeing south. They hate the wildlings but they are going to trust their narrative........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 They hate the wildlings but they are going to trust their narrative........ Yep. Because wouldn't it be stupid if Jon Snow came back injured with thousands of injured and exhausted wildlings and the NW just assumed he cut his own face to corroborate an enormous elaborate lie about a battle with WW and zombies (which they know to exist because of Mormont)? That would be epically bad writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grufolo Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 How many are the WL and how many the NW now? If tormund revolts now all the sworn brothers will be dead quickly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Wolf Among Sheep Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yep. Because wouldn't it be stupid if Jon Snow came back injured with thousands of injured and exhausted wildlings and the NW just assumed he cut his own face to corroborate an enormous elaborate lie about a battle with WW and zombies (which they know to exist because of Mormont)? That would be epically bad writing. None of the wildlings looked injured. They looked starved and sleep deprived. Besides, the Night's Watch have been fighting with the wildlings for thousands of years. To them, they are the real enemy. The only ones who understand that the White Walkers are the real enemy are the ones who've seen them in force. It's the same in the books. The brothers heard about the Fist of the First Men yet they still haven't taken the White Walkers seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic. Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 What do you expect to go down? Can't expect Edd, Tormund, and the rest of the Wildlings to just let this go. Not to mention Ghost and Mel. Expecting to see all hell break lose once the truth is out. yes i'd be shocked if the watch didn't find themselves in trouble from the wildlings. They definitely don't have the man power or ability to stop them. Then again I don't really think it matters. The purpose of removing Jon at this point is to allow the WWs to break through the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's the same in the books. The brothers heard about the Fist of the First Men yet they still haven't taken the White Walkers seriously. Can you back this up with text from the books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Wolf Among Sheep Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Can you back this up with text from the books? It's interpretation for the most part, but Bowen Marsh at least knows of the White Walker's existence: Marsh: "The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night's Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath." Jon: "Winter is coming, and with it the White Walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them... but he Wall must be manned. This discussion is at an end. We have much to do before the gate is opened. Tormund and his people will need to be fed and clothed and housed. Some are sick and will need nursing. Those will fall to you, Clydas. Save as many as you can." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 It's interpretation for the most part, but Bowen Marsh at least knows of the White Walker's existence: Marsh: "The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night's Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath." Jon: "Winter is coming, and with it the White Walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them... but he Wall must be manned. This discussion is at an end. We have much to do before the gate is opened. Tormund and his people will need to be fed and clothed and housed. Some are sick and will need nursing. Those will fall to you, Clydas. Save as many as you can." Yeah, I think GRRM messed up here. Too bad D&D didn't fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jet199 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Considering that the character who thinks they are the smartest, St Tyrion, completely dismisses the possibility of whitewalkers I think is fair that idiots like Thorne and Marsh do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Wolf Among Sheep Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yeah, I think GRRM messed up here. Too bad D&D didn't fix it. I wouldn't say they messed up. Thorne, Marsh, and most of the other members have been developed as willfully ignorant and prejudice. Prejudice by definition is irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starklover Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The show will end with Allister as Lord Commander, Ramsay the warden of the North, and Dany as queen. Every hated character will thrive and every good one will be butchered. I hope that didn't happen. it will funny and sad if jon is on the throne in the show, but they have someone different in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borodin Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I wouldn't say they messed up. Thorne, Marsh, and most of the other members have been developed as willfully ignorant and prejudice. Prejudice by definition is irrational. In this case it's suicidal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter George Stewart Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Yeah, it's pretty clear that the Nights Watch is ended. It would be fitting for the ancient tradition to end at this time in this context. There are too few of them (a few hundred?) in relation to the Wildlings (5,000), who are now South of the Wall. Which does make Thorne's decision train pretty stupid. But then we know most of the Watch aren't the brightest pennies in the box, most of them haven't experienced the WW threat first-hand so they don't have the understanding of urgency that Jon and the surviving Wildlings had/have. And Thorne's hatred of Jon Snow has always been irrational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 People see words, they usually ask around at what the words say if they can't read. Natural reaction. Also, dagger wounds. The daggers they used were nice and straight steel, castle forged. Any dagger the Wildlings have would likely be dulled, or inferior quality and would likely leave a nasty jagged cut.Also, motive. None of the Wildlings have a motive to kill Jon. The discontent in the Watch is pretty well known in the show, and they have mutinied just recently.I'm sure Edd is smart enough to figure out what happened. He knows every Wildlings they saved saw what happened at Hardhome, and knows they have a common enemy.I also think that Olly will spill the beans to Edd or Davos. After all the hate-looks he gave Jon this season, I was surprised to see him on the verge of tears before stabbing Jon. He is a young boy after all, and will be guilt-ridden. Then shit gets real -wildlings+Jon loyalists vs Thorne & Co. Unless Mel and Davos do something, the Watch will be left in such a bad state that it will be a cakewalk for the whitewalkers when they come. I'm pissed off at HBO and Kit for claiming Jon's death to be final. At the very least he needs to have a funeral. and should appear in S6 as a corpse, like Tywin, Joffrey and Ygritte did. If Kit does not return to film S6, it means they shot this already. Probably that is the big scene Melisandre was talking about.I think HBO, D&D and Kit are overdoing the secrecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarinius Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I agree that they are stupid (remember, these are illiterate rapists), but seeing as that's the point, I'm not going to use that as criticism. No, the NW simply doesn't trust Jon. I theoretize that this is one of the main reasons why GRRM wrote Jon spending so much time with the wildings, as well as falling in love with Ygritte: it makes the NW thinks he's tricking them. We know Jon, of course, and we know the truth of it, but they don't. They see a traitor who only keeps reinforcing their suspicions. Hardhome is the last straw here, so to speak. Seeing Jon marching through the gates with hundreds of their enemy is just one sight too many. Drunk on their own paranoia, they fail to realize Jon's arguments. Maybe they believe them, maybe they don't, but if they're dead certain that Jon's gonna shank them before the WWs even arrive, why should they hesitate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 And Thorne's hatred of Jon Snow has always been irrational. Not really. Thorne was a well-to-do knight loyal to the Targaryes before Robert became king. After the Rebellion, Lord Tywin gave him and his friends the choice of joining the Watch or having their head on a spike. Most of the highborns despise bastards. Jon is a traitior's bastard for Thorne even before Ned was imprisoned - because Ned was a traitor for Targ loyalists. Ned's fall from power gave Thorne the opportunity he has long been waiting for - to vent his anger on the side that made him lose everything. This does not mean he was a nice guy before the rebellion - he seems a bitter guy who got more bitter due to fate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueDragon Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The Watch is extinct. If Thorne et.al. survive the aftermath of assassinating Jon, the wildings will kill them, leaving about 25 NW left. Jon dead/resurrected/transformed can't be loyal to an organization which is defunct. Jon's supporters hide his body in the Wall during the chaos that surrounds his 'death' -- the Wall comes down sooner rather than later. Jon is reanimated by the magic of the Wall. He looks substantially different. We can only pray that D&D don't recast the part with another actor. Dany hears about the Wall coming down and knows she cannot postpone her return to Westeros. Then. . .This is as far as I can see. Everything after the Wall falling is a complete blank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 My guess is that the NW will appeal to the Boltons for help in dealing with the wildlings. There selling point will be that they killed that traitorous Jon Snow who was helping Stannis. Roose who is pissed at Ramsey over the whole Reek/Sansa fiasco will send him and some men to get things there straightened out as a sort of punishment. Ramsey will consider the whole thing to be a field day. Lots of wildlings to kill and rape. Maybe he will meet a cruel sadistic female wildling who convinces him to side with them against the Watch. One thing leads to another and he ends up setting himself up as the new Nights King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfOfWinter Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Even assuming the Boltons will waste men on helping out the NW, it'll take them weeks to reach the Wall and by then, the NW will all be dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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