FTW Aftermath

[~DarkHorse~]

Even assuming the Boltons will waste men on helping out the NW, it'll take them weeks to reach the Wall and by then, the NW will all be dead.

Apparently, it didn't take a week for Melisandre to reach the Wall from Winterfell. ;)

[Smoke317]

I personally feel that there is only 1 cool way to salvage the mess that they have created at the wall. The wildlings will rage and destroy the night's watch. Afterwards they seize Mel and return the "gift" she gave to Mance. Both they and Davos hate her. They tie her to a stake on Jon's funeral pyre and light it (cool throwback to Dany birthing her dragons). Mel recently broken regains her faith and embraces the flames and doesn't scream out but prays to rhilor in essence sacrificing herself to resurrect Jon. If Kit is indeed done, Jon Targ (a new actor) with silver hair (with a black streak in it) rises from the ashes. My only problem is Mel's vision of walking the walls of winterfell. So maybe she rises out of the ashes with Jon or its Thorne (hopefully olly) they burn. This happening could get me back invested in the show.

[jbob]

it makes a lot of sense because that's when he read the pink letter and announced he would ride south to fight bolton. there was also chaos when Wun Wun was whipping that guy around. the show actually makes less sense, nothing else happened to make them kill Jon. They literally waited for Mel and Davos to come back to the wall. they killed Jon at night for plot convenience. They also look like dicks now since they planned the whole thing like a bunch of disloyal scumbag murderers. in the books is was more a split second thing after the letter and the chaos.

Why does there need to be more to make them kill Jon? I like that they killed him because of the Wildlings and not because they're upset about Jon running off. When you think about it, wouldn't Jon leaving with the Wildlings benefit them anyway? They could've planned on executing Jon in the books as well but Jon's decision forced their hand. But it all seems a little too convenient. They were lucky that Wunwun killed someone? And I don't think chaos that much that no one notices a man getting stabbed ten times.

They didn't know Mel and Davos were coming back. In fact, maybe that's why they did it then and there, just in case more people come back and they lose their opportunity.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

What doesn't make sense to me is if Thorne wanted Jon dead, and everyone else did too but a handful of loyalists, why open the gate to Jon and the Wildlings?

[TheLeviathan73]

What doesn't make sense to me is if Thorne wanted Jon dead, and everyone else did too but a handful of loyalists, why open the gate to Jon and the Wildlings?

I wonder if Thorne wasn't torn between duty and his detest of Jon. The show did try to establish that Jon showed respect to Thorne when he didn't have to and Thorne had started to see some of his leadership qualities. But I admit, it's a weak guess.

[~DarkHorse~]

What doesn't make sense to me is if Thorne wanted Jon dead, and everyone else did too but a handful of loyalists, why open the gate to Jon and the Wildlings?

The annoying thing is he seemed smug when Jon was on his knees and Olly was coming forward. There was no remorse. He went from being a respectable douche to a pure dick this season.

[Rise Above]

The annoying thing is he seemed smug when Jon was on his knees and Olly was coming forward. There was no remorse. He went from being a respectable douche to a pure dick this season.

I agree, it's lame. They had done something interesting with his character and ended up just throwing it all out the window for a cliche betrayal moment.

[nyser1]

Welcome Olly, the next Joffrey-in-training for fans (just like Ramsay was).

[Soliloquy]

For everyone who is saying the Wildlings will get blamed:

There's a cross that says traitor standing over Jon's body. No one took it down before they left. The Wildlings have no reason to call Jon a traitor, as he just finished HELPING THE SHIT out of them.

And unless jon's rising past three days!... wtf is a cross doing on this show!!!?

despite what they wrote on it... I think it's useless unless it's foreshadowing his ressurection...

No doubt the wildlings will avenge him one way or another!

[Hodor's Dragon]

Weak. Your premise is that the Night's Watch don't believe Jon Snow nor anyone else who has faught WW and Zombies. Well, they believed Mormont when he informed them he was attacked by a zombie at Castle Black. And all those wounded wildlings fleeing the north - those were all self-inflicted wounds to keep up the deception, right?

Please. Don't make excuses for crappy writing.

Listen, man, I agree with you more often than not. I think the show went off the rails badly this year, after 4 outstanding years.

But you say some variation of "bad writing" way, way, way, way too often, and you have gotten to 1100 posts way too fast without saying enough different things. "Bad writing" is just a vague catchphrase. It's - guess what - bad writing.

Say what you mean, and if you don't have something more meaningful to say, think about not saying it so often. It's OK if a discussion happens without you jumping in. Really, nothing bad will happen.

[Hodor's Dragon]

The show will end with Allister as Lord Commander, Ramsay the warden of the North, and Dany as queen. Every hated character will thrive and every good one will be butchered.

LOL at Dany as a "hated character." In the minds of a handful of energetic posters on this forum and their adolescent followers, and that's about it. You need to get out more.

**

On the main subject, I am surprised at so many folks saying the killers will disavow their actions. I don't see it. The Caesar parallels are way, way too strong; they were extremely strong in the book, and in the show they even throw in an "et tu, Olly" moment to top it all off.

Why would they have each person take their one ceremonial stab if it wasn't so they could each claim to be one of Lord Snow's killers?

I'd lay even money that they extend the parallel in season 6 by having Thorne and Sam give speeches over the body.

[lakin1013]

Why would they have each person take their one ceremonial stab if it wasn't so they could each claim to be one of Lord Snow's killers?

So that each one could claim that theirs was NOT the fatal stab. I always thought that was why a firing squad had so many shooters, so that each man could console himself that he was not the final killer. Also, it makes sure the killee (? the one set to be murdered) dies. But I am thinking in legal terms, as in Yes, I stabbed him, but he was alive after my stab. And of course, this makes Ollie a cold blooded murderer. Which he is, tear or no tear.

[Hodor's Dragon]

So that each one could claim that theirs was NOT the fatal stab. I always thought that was why a firing squad had so many shooters, so that each man could console himself that he was not the final killer. Also, it makes sure the killee (? the one set to be murdered) dies. But I am thinking in legal terms, as in Yes, I stabbed him, but he was alive after my stab. And of course, this makes Ollie a cold blooded murderer. Which he is, tear or no tear.

Even with your interpretation - which may well be correct - it's still for claiming something, not for pretending you weren't involved.

[Farwynds Oceanseer]

Since Jon's last word was "ollie," I'm hoping he'll skin-change into the little douche and track down the assassins when they're alone in the dark. Too bad there's never been any reference to the Mad Axe on the show.

[The Mighty Nutsaculus]

Yeah but only because he decided it was a smart idea to stab Jon. Otherwise he would be perfectly safe.

To be honest, both in the books and in the show the stabbing is a suicide act. There's just no way how they can expect to survive the reprisal. The Night's Watch itself is pretty divided over Jon and he does have some supporters, so they will be pissed. Not to mention that Jon has the support of the thousands of Wildlings, Davos (only in the show), Melisandre, Wun Wun, Tormund and Ghost. The only way how I see the stabbers survive the whole situation is when they immediately leave Castle Black and ride to the South. Otherwise they'll be dead in the morning.

The show isn't that satisfying. Here's what will happen. Tormund will walk in to the room where Thorne and the rest of the mutineers are, and say "Where's Jon?". And they'll say "The traitorous basted betrayed us and we handled it". And Tormund will be like "That was a big mistake. He was going to be the one leading us from this mess. Now we are doomed thanks to you.". And nothing else will come of it. GRRM and the writers of the show don't like good, satisfying vengeance for the deserved. They just like knowing we're bummed when our favorite characters die.

[The Mighty Nutsaculus]

So that each one could claim that theirs was NOT the fatal stab. I always thought that was why a firing squad had so many shooters, so that each man could console himself that he was not the final killer. Also, it makes sure the killee (? the one set to be murdered) dies. But I am thinking in legal terms, as in Yes, I stabbed him, but he was alive after my stab. And of course, this makes Ollie a cold blooded murderer. Which he is, tear or no tear.

They don't do that for legal reasons. They could just have one person stab him and be like "He was alive after I stabbed him.". Nobody is going to give anyone a free pass because one of the gaping wounds from a 10 inch blade wasn't technically the one that killed him. They do it to commit to each other that they're going to do this, and nobody is more responsible than the other.

[The Mighty Nutsaculus]

Well I'll have to back Borodin up, on this one. With the Hardhome episode, the show stripped FTW mostly of all it's justification. I watched the episode yesterday with some friends, who haven't read the books and they couldn't understand the reasons why Jon was stabbed. At last it was just a bunch of xenophobic people who don't like the wildlings ... because.

Despite my own opinion, that the scene was poorly directed, it just didn't made a lot of sense to me. If Thorne is so against the wildlings south of the wall, why did he let them trough in the first place? Why not lock them north of the wall together with the hated (?) LC and be done with it?

First, Thorne had it in for Jon since he arrived at the wall. Second, Jon screwed a wildling, while pretending to be one of them. Something I don't think Thorne ever bought. He killed Halfhand. Again, not sure if they bought his story on that either. Not to mention Ollie seeing his people and his parent wiped out by the same people who were now going to be getting passage. And again, these guys have been fighting wildlings almost all of their lives. Thorne the longest.

I don't like how it happened, and Jon did what he did for the better good. But there are plenty of reasons in these guys minds to kill Jon. Moreso in the books. In the books they do it just because he wants to go to Winterfell to kill Ramsay. That seems like way less of a reason to stab him.

[Darren Long]

I'd lay even money that they extend the parallel in season 6 by having Thorne and Sam give speeches over the body.

Sam left for the south, no? I do not see him coming back as he is gone and him going to Oldtown follows established cannon.

I do not hate Dany, but I find her story to be not appealing at times. I know a lot of my friends like her simply for her looks. I think having Varys and Tyrion with her will help her storyline quite a bit. Some complain about her acting, but I think she is ok in that regard. The whole Sons of the Harpy story was poorly done. The Unsullied, supposedly crack mercenaries, died by the score to these dagger wielding chaps in robes. They never once attempted to form a phalanx and shield wall that would have stopped them. Either they are not crack troops as claimed or D&D took some gross creative liberties with their fighting skills. But I found this storyline and the Dorne one to be the weakest this year.

The NW that stopped him thought he was a traitor hence the sign, that is why he was stabbed. Olly's family was killed by Wildings, Thorne though Jon was going to get them all killed. I thought it was funny that there were rumors of Benjen on IMDB and his name was used to trick Jon. Very tricky, someone had to know something on that trolling.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Sam left for the south, no? I do not see him coming back as he is gone and him going to Oldtown follows established cannon.

I do not hate Dany, but I find her story to be not appealing at times. I know a lot of my friends like her simply for her looks. I think having Varys and Tyrion with her will help her storyline quite a bit. Some complain about her acting, but I think she is ok in that regard. The whole Sons of the Harpy story was poorly done. The Unsullied, supposedly crack mercenaries, died by the score to these dagger wielding chaps in robes. They never once attempted to form a phalanx and shield wall that would have stopped them. Either they are not crack troops as claimed or D&D took some gross creative liberties with their fighting skills. But I found this storyline and the Dorne one to be the weakest this year.

The NW that stopped him thought he was a traitor hence the sign, that is why he was stabbed. Olly's family was killed by Wildings, Thorne though Jon was going to get them all killed. I thought it was funny that there were rumors of Benjen on IMDB and his name was used to trick Jon. Very tricky, someone had to know something on that trolling.

Did he? I thought he just said he was going and hadn't left yet, but I only saw it once, I could be wrong. Anyway, though, it doesn't matter, they can just have somebody else take the Marc Antony speech.

[Farwynds Oceanseer]

In my head cannon, Howland Reed, several other northern lords, the BWB, and the Blackfish show up secretly holding Robb Stark's will. They hear about the Hardhome slaughter and then look at the conspirators with barely concealed "Are you stupid?" looks in their eyes. They ask if they know whether the vast army of the dead can climb the wall or sail around it, and all they get is "Derp, derp, derp, uh...maybe we should seal the tunnels, I guess I heard that idea somewhere, don't remember where..." They ask Thorne what his plan is for manning all the abandoned castles along the wall now that the Free Folk aren't an option, since this huge army of undead could start climbing anywhere, and he says, "Derp, derp, derp, uhh...how about we figure that out after you help us slaughter the wildlings?" Blackfish gives the Mark Anthony speech (without alerting anyone in advance that he his Jon's uncle), and he incites the NW loyal to John join the wildlings in slaughtering the conspirators. LSH steps forward from the BWB to pass the kiss of life on to Jon. Melissandre realizes she is useless and burns herself to death for shits and giggles. Howland Reed reveals Jon's parentage, and, released from his vows by death, Jon leads the army of rebel northern lords and wildlings to Winterfell, taking book-Stannis' place in the Battle of Ice by the lake, while Davos goes to White Habor and on to Skaggos--just as Roose Bolton, free from the threat of Stannis, is summoning the Northern lords to Winterfell to swear fealty. Manderly brings the pies.

Way too satisfying to happen in the books or the show, but oh, well.