Ramey Bolton, Protector of the Realm.

[Kennelmaster]

And some people, and I believe Martin as well, have suggested this. Although they don't portray them as such in the show. And I would be one of those that would hate that ending with Ramsay. He is not a nice guy in any sense of the word, certainly not one that inspires being a hero. But with this series and the show, who knows.

Genghis Khan was a great military leader but not exactly a nice guy. His background sounds even worse than Ramsey's. His father was poisoned by the Tatars, then the tribe left his family to starve. Later his wife was kidnapped by the Merkits and given away to another man. He was a hero among his own people. He built an empire that was blind to ethnicity and race and judged people on their merit. He gave tax exemptions to religeous leaders, teachers and doctors. On the other hand, his enemies considered him a mass murderer who destroyed cities and killed tens of thousands. He destroyed cities and slaughtered men. He was accused of genocide, killing 3/4 of the population of the Iranian Plateau.

Vlad the Impaler was considered a hero by the Romanians because he protected his people from being overrun by the Ottoman Empire. Of course he did this by roasting the children of his enemies and forcing the mothers to eat them. He was infamous for his sadistic tortures. He impaled everybody. His knives were sharp. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Martin based the Bolton Family on the House of Dracule. Flaying is very similar to impaling. But if you were a Romanian peasant terrorized by the Ottoman invaders, old Vlad was your hero and protector.

Attila the Hun was a great military leader who united his nomadic tribes and ended their squabbling. He was a hero to his own people, but his enemies called him the Scourge of God. Rape and pillage were terrorist tactics he used to put fear into the hearts of his enemies. Attila's tribes were great horsemen. Martin might have actually based the Dothraki on the Hun tribesmen.

Martin reads a lot of history.

[Kennelmaster]

D&D might want to tread lightly on the evil Ramsey as hero theme, however.

Nobody on this board seems to thrilled with the idea. They don't want to see a world where there are no heroes and the bad guys win again and again. I remember the movie Showgirls. Verhoeven and Esterhas actually did research in the casinos and strip joints of Las Vegas and made a movie about the trashy, scummy people in the business. It was a very realistic film and people hated it. There were no heroes, just selfish, opportunistic people trying to get ahead by screwing each other over. People hated the movie. Some called it the worst movie ever made. It ended Elizabeth Berkley's career, although, strangely enough, not the careers of Verhoeven and Esterhas.

If D&D wants to make a grim, realistic medieval show where the heroes get stabbed and beheaded and the bad guys win, they may lose their audience. People want Disney with their dragons and direwolves.

On the bright side, Bran and Rickon are still out there with Summer and Shaggydog. Sansa and Jon Snow may or may not be dead. Arya is still out there. Daenerys is being groomed by Tyrion and Jorah. There are still heroes out there that haven't emerged yet. Maybe Season 5 is the Empire Strikes Back of the series. The bad guys are ruling and the heroes are in hiding while Darth Ramsey does brutal, horrible things. The worse Ramsey gets, the more you cheer when one of the heroes puts a broadsword through him.

[Ludo Kressh]

Well, I think some of the problem might be that people are used to fairy tales having happy endings. I'm not under any aspersions that Game of Thrones is going to have a happy ending, even Martin said it's going to be bittersweet for some of the main characters but it does drag down the story a little when the perceived bad guys win all the time.

Don't get me wrong, Ramsay is a good character in the context of his environment being raised a Bolton bastard but there has to be a point where he and his 20 good men aren't invincible. And you're right, you got to go through the darkness to get to the light but damn, it's time for a little light.

Hmmm, Empire Strikes Back...I wonder if we'll get Return of the Jon. :P Hopefully next season.

[Lady Blackmont]

I'm sorry, but making a evil bitch like Ramsay a hero is not the same as having the "bad guys" win consistently.

I don't care if Ramsay sits the Throne for awhile, but the idea of him being some kind of PTWP for the North is intolerable.

I want him dead. As gruesome as possible. Go write some fanfic about Ramsay, Slayer of Others, king of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men.

You're talking about making him a savior, how can you compare that to victory? This would be like having Walder Frey lead a coalition against an invasion from Essos, and then purging the Riverlands of LS and the BWB. There's dark, and then there's this. Give me heroes with flaws, but I will never root for a monster.

[Kennelmaster]

Well, I think some of the problem might be that people are used to fairy tales having happy endings. I'm not under any aspersions that Game of Thrones is going to have a happy ending, even Martin said it's going to be bittersweet for some of the main characters but it does drag down the story a little when the perceived bad guys win all the time.

Don't get me wrong, Ramsay is a good character in the context of his environment being raised a Bolton bastard but there has to be a point where he and his 20 good men aren't invincible. And you're right, you got to go through the darkness to get to the light but damn, it's time for a little light.

Hmmm, Empire Strikes Back...I wonder if we'll get Return the of Jon. :P Hopefully next season.

Or to quote another franchise, Star Trek III - The Search for Snow....

[Kennelmaster]

Ramsey sits on the throne? Now that's an interesting thought. He's the kind of guy who solves problems with a broadsword and an axe. I'm not sure he would do well in the political arena of Cersei Lannister and Littlefinger. He also has the Sparrows to deal with. That could be his Waterloo.

[Green Knight]

Sorry double post

[Richard Writhen]

Something tells me Ramsey won't be up the this particular challenge.

What? Fighting the Night's King, the White Walkers, the wights and the frickin Other all by himself? Lawl...

[Green Knight]

D&D might want to tread lightly on the evil Ramsey as hero theme, however.

Nobody on this board seems to thrilled with the idea. They don't want to see a world where there are no heroes and the bad guys win again and again. I remember the movie Showgirls. Verhoeven and Esterhas actually did research in the casinos and strip joints of Las Vegas and made a movie about the trashy, scummy people in the business. It was a very realistic film and people hated it. There were no heroes, just selfish, opportunistic people trying to get ahead by screwing each other over. People hated the movie. Some called it the worst movie ever made. It ended Elizabeth Berkley's career, although, strangely enough, not the careers of Verhoeven and Esterhas.

If D&D wants to make a grim, realistic medieval show where the heroes get stabbed and beheaded and the bad guys win, they may lose their audience. People want Disney with their dragons and direwolves.

On the bright side, Bran and Rickon are still out there with Summer and Shaggydog. Sansa and Jon Snow may or may not be dead. Arya is still out there. Daenerys is being groomed by Tyrion and Jorah. There are still heroes out there that haven't emerged yet. Maybe Season 5 is the Empire Strikes Back of the series. The bad guys are ruling and the heroes are in hiding while Darth Ramsey does brutal, horrible things. The worse Ramsey gets, the more you cheer when one of the heroes puts a broadsword through him.

You're right on the money!

I love this story but that running theme of the bad guys seeming to always come out on top gets really old.

I remember when in the books Jon beheaded Janos Slynt. It came as a total surprise to me. I really didn't expect him to follow through with it. I was so damn happy and desperate to see a hateful character finally get his. It was refreshing to finally have at least a small win for the good guys.

I'm all about building suspense and tension, but come on. It's getting to be a little much. The story has to have some good moments because it's getting to the point where it just isn't fun anymore. I'm all for realism but I read and watch for entertainment, not to be depressed. . .

[Lady Blackmont]

If Ramsay was fighting the Others, I would be hoping every instant that he would receive a nice crystal blade in the eye.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Winter is a Time for Wolves. The Boltons are not wolves, they are leeches. They won't make it to the Long Night.

[Valhalla Morghulis]

You're right on the money!

I love this story but that running theme of the bad guys seeming to always come out on top gets really old.

I remember when in the books Jon beheaded Janos Slynt. It came as a total surprise to me. I really didn't expect him to follow through with it. I was so damn happy and desperate to see a hateful character finally get his. It was refreshing to finally have at least a small win for the good guys.

I'm all about building suspense and tension, but come on. It's getting to be a little much. The story has to have some good moments because it's getting to the point where it just isn't fun anymore. I'm all for realism but I read and watch for entertainment, not to be depressed. . .

I agree it is getting darker but it is always darkest before the dawn and we are approaching the endgame so villains have to become stronger and greater and seemingly more and more invincible as a hero is only as brave and strong as the opponent he faces.

As for lighter entertainment, we still have Bron, and Jamie and Bron, and Tyrion, and Tyrion and Varys, and an orgasming Sam and an orgasmic Pod, so there is still plenty of fun there so don't let the darkness overtake everything, it's what it wants.

[Green Knight]

I agree it is getting darker but it is always darkest before the dawn and we are approaching the endgame so villains have to become stronger and greater and seemingly more and more invincible as a hero is only as brave and strong as the opponent he faces.

As for lighter entertainment, we still have Bron, and Jamie and Bron, and Tyrion, and Tyrion and Varys, and an orgasming Sam and an orgasmic Pod, so there is still plenty of fun there so don't let the darkness overtake everything, it's what it wants.

I'm speaking from the context of the books mostly cause that's where the real story is. I don't really get worked up over the show too much because it's more like fan fiction.

[ummester]

Meh,

I really don't get why this is so hard to understand. ASoIaF/GoTS is a story in which the heroes are being turned into monsters to beat the worse monsters. So the worse monsters have to look worse and look like they are going to win, right until it is revealed how monstrous our heroes have become to kick their butts.

Ramsey, Cersie, Gregor et al have to be ever more vile, powerful and threatening, right up until Jon and Bran go all ice zombie attacks or Dany goes all fire and blood on them. Think of what we have seen with pedo Trant and Arya as foreplay for how it is going to play out, sure, pedo Trant is not a very nice guy but does that really justify going all psycho eye stabbing bitch on him? I'm pretty sure the final conflict is going to feel just like that.

Oh and that's also your bittersweet right there - yeah, your heroes are going to win but you may not like them very much when they do because winning will cost them their 'goodness'.

[tseka]

I think the hero that will save Westeros from the Wights should be a character that is willing to save his or her life for the greater good by prerequisite.

I don't think Ramsay is that kind of character lol.

[TheCasualObserver]

Genghis Khan was a great military leader but not exactly a nice guy. His background sounds even worse than Ramsey's. His father was poisoned by the Tatars, then the tribe left his family to starve. Later his wife was kidnapped by the Merkits and given away to another man. He was a hero among his own people. He built an empire that was blind to ethnicity and race and judged people on their merit. He gave tax exemptions to religeous leaders, teachers and doctors. On the other hand, his enemies considered him a mass murderer who destroyed cities and killed tens of thousands. He destroyed cities and slaughtered men. He was accused of genocide, killing 3/4 of the population of the Iranian Plateau.

Vlad the Impaler was considered a hero by the Romanians because he protected his people from being overrun by the Ottoman Empire. Of course he did this by roasting the children of his enemies and forcing the mothers to eat them. He was infamous for his sadistic tortures. He impaled everybody. His knives were sharp. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Martin based the Bolton Family on the House of Dracule. Flaying is very similar to impaling. But if you were a Romanian peasant terrorized by the Ottoman invaders, old Vlad was your hero and protector.

Attila the Hun was a great military leader who united his nomadic tribes and ended their squabbling. He was a hero to his own people, but his enemies called him the Scourge of God. Rape and pillage were terrorist tactics he used to put fear into the hearts of his enemies. Attila's tribes were great horsemen. Martin might have actually based the Dothraki on the Hun tribesmen.

Martin reads a lot of history.

All of these people were charasmatic as well as cruelly efficient. None of these warlords would kill their own men to play mind games with a prisoner.

D&D might want to tread lightly on the evil Ramsey as hero theme, however.

Nobody on this board seems to thrilled with the idea. They don't want to see a world where there are no heroes and the bad guys win again and again. I remember the movie Showgirls. Verhoeven and Esterhas actually did research in the casinos and strip joints of Las Vegas and made a movie about the trashy, scummy people in the business. It was a very realistic film and people hated it. There were no heroes, just selfish, opportunistic people trying to get ahead by screwing each other over. People hated the movie. Some called it the worst movie ever made. It ended Elizabeth Berkley's career, although, strangely enough, not the careers of Verhoeven and Esterhas.

If D&D wants to make a grim, realistic medieval show where the heroes get stabbed and beheaded and the bad guys win, they may lose their audience. People want Disney with their dragons and direwolves.

On the bright side, Bran and Rickon are still out there with Summer and Shaggydog. Sansa and Jon Snow may or may not be dead. Arya is still out there. Daenerys is being groomed by Tyrion and Jorah. There are still heroes out there that haven't emerged yet. Maybe Season 5 is the Empire Strikes Back of the series. The bad guys are ruling and the heroes are in hiding while Darth Ramsey does brutal, horrible things. The worse Ramsey gets, the more you cheer when one of the heroes puts a broadsword through him.

I'll say it again - it's not that the bad guys are winning, it's that Ramsay himself is unrealistic. A hyper competent, ludicrously lucky, handsome psychotic super villain is no more grim or realistic than the Knight in shining armour trope. Book Ramsay is interesting because he is a violent ball of crazy protected by his father - it's strongly implied that not even his own men will follow him after Roose is gone, because why would anybody?. Show Ramsay has none of book Ramsay's insecurities and is blessed with superpowers whenever the show needs the plot to move along (most notably with Stannis).

He exists in this form because the showrunners are trying to top Joffrey in a villain for the audience to root against. It has nothiing to do with historical accuracy I assure you.

[Lady Blackmont]

Root against my ass, I almost wanted Stannis to be defeated.

If anything, Dabid and Daaan have managed to manipulate the audience into wanting Ramsay to succeed.

And yeah, the real story is in the books, don't wander off talking about how awesome Jamie and Bronn are. Maybe I'm just bitter that Pod stole Tormund's member.

The show is epic television, but if you want a good plot, find your way to a bookstore.