Sansa's inability to form real friendships

[sweetsunray]

Mord took up his whip and cracked it, and the first pair of oxen began to lumber in a circle, turning the winch. The chain uncoiled, rattling as it scraped across the stone, the oaken bucket swaying as it began its long descent to Sky. Poor oxen, thought Alayne. Mord would cut their throats and butcher them before he left, and leave them for the falcons. Whatever part remained when the Eyrie was reopened would be roasted up for the spring feast, if it had not spoiled. AFFC, Alayne II

I'm a vegetarian, so I'll always have this scene burned into my memory. :P

I did say she improved, and that her ability to feel affective empathy grew. Completely understand the vegetarian thing. I mercy-killed a wounded bird the cat caught once... he was teasing, and it would have been alive for several hours more otherwise. Just after I killed my mom called me to the table for steak dinner. I couldn't eat it. Despite its wounds, that blackbird sure wanted to live. That's 15 years ago. Can't think of it without my heart cringing, though I know I did the right thing for the poor thing. Anyhow, I thought, and this is purely personal - I can't stand the idea for an animal dying to land on my plate, when I can get my proteins with good enough alternatives.

[sweetsunray]

Btw what is Sandor's beef with Tyrion? He goes from his standard dislike to actual hatred seemingly out of nowhere.

'cause he had feelings for her I guess. He's jealous that the Imp gets to be married to the bird.

[EatCrow]

And we are to forget that Sansa is basically surrounded by enemies? She is literally imprisoned.

And not to mention that it is plainly false. She flourishes with the Tyrell flock and made quite the numerous friendships that ultimately led to nowhere. Furthermore, Tyrion noticed how excellent Sansa is at social skills during Joffrey's wedding. Lastly, she made some friends in Vale. It is plainly incorrect to say that she is incapable of making friends.

IIRC didn't the Tyrell's drop her once she married Tyrion I think they were just using her. That's the impression I got. I could be wrong. But its a good point that Sansa really didn't bond with anyone unlike her siblings. It may be because she is takes most after Cat and is more southern in her nature?

[Gertrude]

I just think there is no one around interested in being a friend back.

But hey, if you're convinced that Sansa is stupid, socially awkward or whatever else you want to project on her, I'm not going to change your mind. Mostly I just can't wait until the next books come out so I can revisit threads like this and see how it all plays out. (And point and laugh at those who are wrong, of course :p) I'm betting Sansa will come out on top with lots of friends and influence, so there's that.

Plus, Sansa is a very young girl. Can we at least take that into consideration before criticizing her every little action as if she were an adult who should know better?

[cocoalover1956]

IIRC didn't the Tyrell's drop her once she married Tyrion I think they were just using her. That's the impression I got. I could be wrong. But its a good point that Sansa really didn't bond with anyone unlike her siblings. It may be because she is takes most after Cat and is more southern in her nature?

Because no one south of the Neck has friends... <_<

[Night'sQueen]

*facepalm* (yes, another one)

It helps to consider the entire quote: "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for the dwarf." It's that bolded part that is the meat of the matter, the point of the sentence. He's saying that even if he had done those things, it would still have been a kinder fate for her than the one he left her to.

Context, context, context.... and complete quotes.

I don't see any significance in the end of the sentence whatsoever. The point is that he was simply trying to goad Arya into killing him.

Go on, do it.” When Arya did not move, he said , “I killed your butcher’s boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after.” He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.” A spasm of pain twisted his face. “Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy … avenge your little Michael …”

Context.

And obviously he didn't intend to rape Sansa. He easily could have. He wanted her to run away with him.

ETA: Sorry for the OT post.

[RoamingRonin]

I just think there is no one around interested in being a friend back.

But hey, if you're convinced that Sansa is stupid, socially awkward or whatever else you want to project on her, I'm not going to change your mind. Mostly I just can't wait until the next books come out so I can revisit threads like this and see how it all plays out. (And point and laugh at those who are wrong, of course :P) I'm betting Sansa will come out on top with lots of friends and influence, so there's that.

Plus, Sansa is a very young girl. Can we at least take that into consideration before criticizing her every little action as if she were an adult who should know better?

But at what cost?

[Woofless]

I'm of the opinion that the Tyrells totally liked her until she spilled the Willas marriage plot

:agree: My thoughts to your fingertips.

[Annara Snow]

Sorry Annara, did read your link. Wishful thinking at best, delusional SanSan cognitive dissonance at worst.

The idea that Sandor came to Sansa's room to rape her is complete misremembering of the text at best (I guess if you last read it long time ago...) and total lack of reading comprehension at worst.

The idea that he was regretting not raping her is downright ridiculous and also shows problems with reading comprehension.

But with the phrase like "delusional SanSan cognitive dissonance", it looks like in your case there are also some serious character hate/shipper/antishipper goggles at work, too (I can't be bothered to check your posting history to see which one it is; of course, it can be more than just one).

[Annara Snow]

I can't and wont excuse Sansa's youth for her mistakes. Her willingness to lie started at winterfell. When they were sewing, she lied about what they were talking about. Arya was talking about jon and sansa lied about it. Cuz is seemed to me that she didnt want to lose face in front of the princess. So no her youth to me cannot be used ti excuse her in anything. She had already shown she was willing to lie to keep up what she wanted to appear as.

LOL She lied and covered up for Arya (who was insulting the crown prince and specifically quoting her bastard brother insult of the prince - I bet Mordane would have loved that!), now she is bad for that, too? Now I've seen it all.

[Newstar]

And we are to forget that Sansa is basically surrounded by enemies? She is literally imprisoned.

And not to mention that it is plainly false. She flourishes with the Tyrell flock and made quite the numerous friendships that ultimately led to nowhere. Furthermore, Tyrion noticed how excellent Sansa is at social skills during Joffrey's wedding. Lastly, she made some friends in Vale. It is plainly incorrect to say that she is incapable of making friends.

Real friends, though: someone who has no interest in fucking her who has a proven track record of helping her out even if it doesn't benefit them at all or even if that aid hurts them. Cat had Brienne. Ned had Robert (once upon a time, anyway). Jon has (had?) Sam. And so on.

Who does Sansa have who fits in this category? No one, that's who. That doesn't speak well of her in the slightest, but it's completely of a piece with her characterization in the books. ADWD Jeyne is completely unconcerned with Sansa's fate, and given Sansa's almost inhuman contempt towards a hysterical, panicked Jeyne in AGOT, that's hardly surprising:

Jeyne Poole had been confined with her, but Jeyne was useless. Her face was puffy from all her crying, and she could not seem to stop sobbing about her father.

"I'm certain your father is well," Sansa told her when she had finally gotten the dress buttoned right. "I'll ask the queen to let you see him." She thought that kindness might lift Jeyne's spirits, but the other girl just looked at her with red, swollen eyes and began to cry all the harder. She was such a child.

"They're killing everyone," the steward's daughter had shrieked at her. She went on and on.

Jeyne Poole and all her things were gone when Ser Mandon Moore returned Sansa to the high tower of Maegor's Holdfast. No more weeping, she thought gratefully.

This is Jeyne's darkest hour (at least as of that time). She witnessed people being slaughtered. She has no idea what has happened to her father. And yet although Sansa mouths words of comfort, she is secretly contemptuous towards Jeyne, exasperated with her emotions, and relieved and even grateful when she no longer has to deal with her. She acts out compassion so that she doesn't have to deal with Jeyne's inconvenient emotions, but inwardly she's rolling her eyes at Jeyne. However, in ACOK, she thinks of Jeyne as her "truest friend"!

Given how Sansa treats her "truest friend" when push comes to shove--she rolls her eyes inwardly at her terror and trauma and is relieved to be rid of her--it's no wonder she has no real friends. She's a nasty piece of work. Someone whose reaction when faced with their best friend terrified and traumatized over seeing people murdered is "Ugh, this bitch will not shut up" is not someone who understands what real friendship is.

[Annara Snow]

Wrong. Jon can form friendships, so can Robert Baratheon, Eddard Stark, Robb Stark, Davos Seaworth, et cetera.

Who did Robb form a friendship with, other than Theon, a hostage of the Starks he grew up with, who ended up betraying him?

Who is Davos friends with? Salladhor Saan? Yes, very trustworthy character.

Did Ned and Robert ever have any friends apart from each other? Some friends they did not live apart from and saw more often than once in 10 years?

[Annara Snow]

Compare Arya's compassion with Sansa's elitism.

But ignore the facts.

Well, you obviously have to, if you're going to talk about Sansa's "lack of compassion"... next up, I suggest talking about Tyrion's lack of intelligence, Robert's and Renly's lack of charisma, and Varys' and Littlefinger's inability to scheme.

Yes, elitism must be why Sansa saved Dontos, sympathized and prayed for Sandor, why she was the only person to have any regard for Lollys, why she urged Joffrey to be kind to the crazy poor commonborn woman with a dead baby that crossed their way and give her gold, why she likes Sandor, Mya Stone, Lothor... Totally elitism, these are all people of super high status.

So, I guess I have my answer to my earlier question: it's character hate for you. But not for Sandor (or maybe you hate him too) but for Sansa. I guess you can't abide the idea that anyone may have an interest in Sansa apart from wanting to rape her, right?

[Annara Snow]

To answer the OP, in a word Sansa is ... shallow. She cares more about appearances than substance. After five books there are some glimmers of change, but not significant.

And she's killing SweetRobin for LF, so I'm not sure she's really moving in a good direction.

Exactly, that's why she dislikes Harry the Heir and Lyn Corbray and why she has feelings for Sandor, wanted to save Dontos and saw him as a friend, or why she likes Lothor Brune. Her inability to judge a character is also why she immediately sensed Littlefinger was creepy and why she read Tyrion like an open book and had his personality pegged exactly right, while he was never able to figure her out.

[Annara Snow]

Well, I'm pretty sure Lady was friendly to her. But that didn't work out to well for the poor wolf.

And Ned treated her in a friendly manner as a good father. And that didn't work out too well for him.

Dontos - well, she did save his life (for a time) but when he was so friendly as to smuggle her out to a waiting ship, his extended life proved not to last very long.

And Sweetrobin seems to have an affection for Sansa. Not sure how that's going to work out for him.

I'm thinking maybe the people not forming friendships with Sansa may be the smart ones.

I've never been a big Sansa fan. A lot of the bad stuff that went down had origins with either her or Cat. Must be a Tully thing.

Wow, great logic you have there. I'd love to hear how Catelyn had anything to do with any of the bad stuff you mention.

From what I can see, the origin of the bad stuff that befall those people came from:

Lady: Cersei, Robert, Joffrey and Ned;

Ned: Cersei, Littlefinger and Ned himself;

Dontos: Littlefinger and Dontos himself (but please tell me how Sansa was to blame, or how Dontos "befriended her" purely for herself);

Sweetrobin - the bad things that have happened to him so far (losing his parents) have been due to Littlefinger and his mother Lysa (there, finally a Tully that can be blamed). If something bad happens to him, it will be due to Littlefinger, again, not "befriending Sansa".

But I'm waiting for the mental gymnastics where it's all Sansa's and Cat's fault.

[falcotron]

Who did Robb form a friendship with, other than Theon, a hostage of the Starks he grew up with, who ended up betraying him?

The people that he fought alongside in every battle, the second sons and daughters and squires that he trusted enough to not bother forming a Kingsguard. The only time any of them ever left his side was when he sent a couple of them with Cat to treat with Renly and Stannis. And right at the end, the two Frey kids were kept away from the Red Wedding by their family, because Walder was afraid they'd be loyal to Robb instead of him. Sure, they were mostly children of Robb's vassals, and I'm sure part of their dedication was that they were excited by the idea of being a sort of informal guard to the King in the North, but I think they count as real friends.

Who is Davos friends with? Salladhor Saan? Yes, very trustworthy character.

Being friends with someone who's untrustworthy doesn't mean you can't form friendships.

Besides, Salladhor isn't all that untrustworthy. He reminded Stannis that he was a pirate, only in it for money. After Blackwater, he threatened to leave, and presumably only stayed because his friend Davos convinced him to. He wasn't paid for the trip to Eastwatch, or for the mission to White Harbor. When he'd finally had enough, while he threatened to just dump Davos overboard, what he actually did was set him ashore at the nearest inhabited island. And remember, this is after most of his men have died and most of his ships have been lost, all for a job that Davos talked him into that he hasn't been paid for.

Also, presumably Davos hasn't seen any of the other smugglers and pirates he used to hang out with. If he'd been a guy who never had any friends, none of this would bother him--but it does seem to, which implies that he's probably accustomed to having friends (and, for obvious reasons, hasn't gotten as close with Selyse's relatives and hangers-on as he did with his old comrades).

Did Ned and Robert ever have any friends apart from each other? Some friends they did not live apart from and saw more often than once in 10 years?

Well, Ned calls Howland Reed his closest friend, but I don't know how often they see each other. Howland never leaves the Neck, and Ned doesn't seem to leave Winterfell that often.

Robert, on the other hand, had dozens of drinking and whoring buddies (according to Cersei, which usually doesn't mean much, but in this case there's not much reason to doubt it). Maybe they were all sycophants, but I find it pretty plausible that some noblemen actually enjoy hanging out in a group drinking and whoring and otherwise carousing even if they don't get any political clout out of it.

[EatCrow]

Because no one south of the Neck has friends... <_<

What I meant was she that she didn't seem to fit in in the north. The grass was always greener.

[WhitewolfStark]

Exactly! And Theon is a hostage, his continued survival depends on the goodwill of the Stark family, how is his relationship with Robb supposed to be equal?

Besides Jeyne Poole is a member of the noble House of Poole, so she is high-born. Being the daughter of the steward to a Lord Paramount is pretty high in the social ladder, remember that the Tyrells once were the sterwards of house Gardener! It's not like Jeyne was a peasant girl from Winter Town brought to the castle to amuse Sansa.

Besides; Sansa being a bad judge of character? It was arguably his bannermen that manipulated Robb into this ridiculous "King in the North" business that ultimately led to his downfall.

It's not a NOBLE house, it's just a regular plain old house. Noble would indicate that her ancestors were kings in the past before being lowered to vassals by the Starks, or that they intermarry with noble-blooded houses.

It's likely that some knight or warrior was rewarded with lands by the Starks in the past and has a small little keep somewhere with a few smallfolk to call their own--perhaps even a village if they're lucky. About the rank of the Cleganes, to be quite honest. I always took Vayon and Jeyne to be from a lesser branch from whoever likely holds the keep and lands, with Vayon being a younger son who made it big because Ned rewarded merit and people who could do their jobs right.

[falcotron]

It's not a NOBLE house, it's just a regular plain old house. Noble would indicate that her ancestors were kings in the past before being lowered to vassals by the Starks, or that they intermarry with noble-blooded houses.

No, that's not what noble means.

In England, a noble family is one whose head is a hereditary peer. In general, the word is used for rough equivalents in other countries. In ASoIaF in particular, noble houses are contrasted with knightly houses below and great houses above. Of the dozens of noble houses described in ASoIaF, D&E, and TWoIaF, only a handful of them are "lowered" royal or great houses.

[The Knight of Flours]

Jeyne Poole aside (and even that relationship is problematic and less than even imo) what is the deal with Sansa consistently making friends with people who clearly don't care about her at all? Dontos, Myranda, the Tyrells. Paralell that with all of her siblings who form friendships of some sort throughout the story. Even Ned and Cat have Robert and Brienne. Would Sansa as theorized, ever be a half-way decent "player" if this is how the text frames her social skills?

It seems to me that almost no-one in Westeros has a real friendship. Probably the closest thing to a friendship we have seen in the books is Tyrion/Bronn and we have all saw what that was worth when push came to shove.

Which of the people that Sansa has interacted with in the books would be a worthwhile real friendship for her to have formed?

Arya's not a psychopath

If you consider the checklist of traits for psychopathy used in our world, Arya actually ticks many of the boxes.