Rant & Rave Without Repercussion s 5 continued [book spoilers]

[Arrow of the Morning]

One of the things I really despised about this season is the treatment of religion. Of course, the sloppy treatment goes back seasons (Robb the Northman and Talisa of Essos being married in a Sept rite, Mel being more political fixer than zealot, even boasting to Selyse n that vile bath scene about how she uses potions to keep herself looking hot..). You'd think in world where there's MAGIC (walking dead, face-changing, warging, DRAGONS) there'd be at least a somewhat respectful inclusion and treatment of faith. Instead we got the Westboro Sparrows busting up wine kegs and locking up gays. It was like a cartoon. Where the show could have included a look at religion, it's either failed to do so entirely (Sansa married in the godswood, but where was the heart tree?) or made it ridiculous. 

 

At least in the books religion was treated with some, for want of a better word, REVERENCE. 

 

With the militant faith was the same. They show them like fanatical zealots from the very beginning, they didn't show that the Sparrows sold all gold and precious things of the Great Sept to help the poor, not even about the massacre the smallfolk suffered in the war (the only thing they showed was the High Sparrow serving soup for a woman).

 

But I think the main reason is because portraying religion in movies and series is a critical thing. If they showed the sparrows in a positive way and, after that, showed the dark side of them it would create controversy, because, for the people in general, religion is seem like a god thing and something that you should not criticize. It is why they showed the sparrows like zealots: letting some qualities would make people relate to them and D&D didn't wanted it.

[TepidHands]

Go away with your children casting fireballs

WTF was the point of the Reeds in the show? So Meera could spat with Osha about who's a better rabbit-plucker?

[Le Cygne]

<snip>

Agree with your points, but they do seem to love the Lannisters (Jaime excepted). And it's baffling why characters like Olly or Trant or Ramsay or Littlefinger merit such focus, at the expense of Starks.

Also, Arya killing Dareon was tied to Jon, and to the Starks. And that kill happened off screen, because blood and gore wasn't actually the point.

Cersei has victims, Carol has none, she is the victim.

Why, why, why do they think that is a better story. Why.

[Le Cygne]

Now we've got Frankengregor and it's like they'll want to nominate Qyburn for the Planetosi Nobel for Medicine. He's not creepy, he hasn't experimented on ONE of Cersei's victims!

Ugh, that's true, Frankengregor will get disproportionate focus next season, along with Olly, Ramsay, and Littlefinger. Add some new over-the-top characters they are casting. As long as Jaime and the Starks look like fools or psychos (Arya, looking at you), that's all that matters.

[Mister Stoneheart]

Ugh, that's true, Frankengregor will get disproportionate focus next season, along with Olly, Ramsay, and Littlefinger. Add some new over-the-top characters they are casting. As long as Jaime and the Starks look like fools or psychos (Arya, looking at you), that's all that matters.

 

And more insufferable scenes between Sam and Gilly, because they're soooooooooo interesting.  Forget the Starks, let's have Sam and Jon talk about getting laid!!!

[Le Cygne]

No torture porn on screen, and to that I'm grateful. But it's there, 'he hurts me every night'.

Yep, she was bruised, too. But of course, with makeup, perfectly tousled hair, and a slinky negligee.

I don't think the Harry thing is happening, any more than this did, it's a bust. She left Winterfell, bowed, bent, and broken, she jumped off a castle wall after wishing she was dead, that's not exactly triumphant.

LF is likely back at the Vale, they are filming there (the location they used) now, and I bet they make her go back with him, they were having too much fun with her as his thrall to stop now.

[Arrow of the Morning]

And Bran, why did they have to rush through his book story, too? Why did Littlefinger tell Lyanna's story instead of Meera? Why did they make it about him, imagine how he felt, and about kidnapping and rape, instead of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? And why paint Rhaegar this way, after all this time? Isn't it time to consider maybe there is more to the story? Wouldn't that be interesting, for Sansa, to consider that just might be a love story?
 

 

I remember that scene, it was a pathetic attempt to approach the question about Jon Snow parentage. They made a sequence three scenes:

 

First we had a scene in the wall with Jon Snow training with Olly and Stannis and Selyse were talking about Jon and Selyse said "he is probably the son of a whore" and Stannis said "Ned Stark was not a man to do something like that" and they finish the scene asking who is his mother.

 

Second in the crypts of Winterfell Sansa is in front of Lyanna's tomb and talks with Littlefinger abou how Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her and Littlefinger delivered this passage.

 

Third, In Meeren Barristan talks with Dany about Rhaegar and how he sang to people in King's Landing for cash and donated the coins to the poor.

 

I don't know about you, but I thought this attempt to talk about Jon Snow's parentage was lazy and disastrous. In the first book George was clever in approach the issue creating curiosity about it, introducing Red Herrings (Wylla, Ashara) and subtly introducing

clues about Lyanna, Rhaegar and the tower of Joy. Probably they will reveal it in the next season and I doubt they will do it in a good way.

[The Northern Scholar]

 

Nah.  I doubt she's recaptured, and really, there wasn't any torture porn involved in Sansa's story.

 

LF is a lock though to ride North and save the day and liberate WF with the Vale lords.  However, this may happen in the books, only it will be Harry and Sansa instead of LF who are doing it.

 

 

I think you are probably right that this is a likely path in the books. I can't articulate it as well as I'd like right now, but Book!Littlefinger doing that doesn't bother me at all. His plotting and planning seems to make sense, at least based on what we know. Batfinger appears to just do stuff because "chaos" and it works out and we're supposed to think "wow he's smart!" It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

I wanted to see the magic. What's that on the Stark sigil, a direwolf, what is that all about, show. Tell the viewers, because who just tuning in this season would have a clue about that.

I wanted Jon to whisper "Ghost" before he "died" just like I wanted Robb to whisper "Grey Wind," because that's what wargs do. And I wanted Jon to remember Arya, because she's the one he is closest to, all the way back to season 1, and say "Stick them with the pointy end." I will miss you, little sister. What happened to that? Instead Olly, the walking talking cliche who came out of nowhere meant more to Jon than Arya.

And Arya missed him, too, in the books. He used to muss her hair and call her little sister, she missed him most of all, but on the show, Needle was revenge, not Jon Snow's smile. I wanted the Hound to say, "This thing about your mother" because he was trying to help, and for her to already know, because Nymeria knew. And she knew it was snowing in the Riverlands, too. And she was Cat, not Lanna, and she warged the cat, because Catelyn has a name.

When Sansa thought about dying in the books, she remembered Lady, and there was the Hound, he was always right there, or in her thoughts and dreams when she thought of Lady, because "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" - that line was on the show, where is the follow up? Instead, after bending over backwards to force her to be raped while playing a minor character, she wasn't even Sansa long enough to visit Lady's grave.

And Bran, why did they have to rush through his book story, too? Why did Littlefinger tell Lyanna's story instead of Meera? Why did they make it about him, imagine how he felt, and about kidnapping and rape, instead of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? And why paint Rhaegar this way, after all this time? Isn't it time to consider maybe there is more to the story? Wouldn't that be interesting, for Sansa, to consider that just might be a love story?

This is not a minor thing, Starks and direwolves, it's about their identity, what could be more important. It's like they hate the Starks...

 

Everything about this post speaks to me. The show apparently has no desire to pick up on this incredibly prominent thread. It drives me nuts.

[Bobby b's bobby]

WTF was the point of the Reeds in the show? So Meera could spat with Osha about who's a better rabbit-plucker?

Something they thought might go somewhere them decided against maybe? I guess they were going to do something with Jogen and his visions before they decided they were too cool for magic.

[kissdbyfire]

Anyone watched/is watching Sense8? I started watching it on Netflix the day before yesterday; watched 4 eps and 4 more last night. I admit I'm a bit apprehensive with how the next seasons will go. The Washowski brothers seem to have the same problem JJ Abrahams does. It all starts out fun and interesting (The Matrix, Lost, Fringe), but then they seem to go off the rails in a spectacular way. That said, so far so good. And there are so many lessons for the Ds here... The first few minutes of the first episode manage to develop characters way better than GoT's whole s 5, and that's with very little dialogue.

[Toth]

Anyone watched/is watching Sense8? I started watching it on Netflix the day before yesterday; watched 4 eps and 4 more last night. I admit I'm a bit apprehensive with how the next seasons will go. The Washowski brothers seem to have the same problem JJ Abrahams does. It all starts out fun and interesting (The Matrix, Lost, Fringe), but then they seem to go off the rails in a spectacular way. That said, so far so good. And there are so many lessons for the Ds here... The first few minutes of the first episode manage to develop characters way better than GoT's whole s 5, and that's with very little dialogue.

 

Mmh, sounds actually pretty interesting. J. M. Straczynski is for me always a guarantee for very decent writing.

 

I had already gushed about it when we talked about an ASoIaF-Anime, but I would also very much like to rub Fate/Zero under the nose of the two of them. It was a literature adaption and the source material has a pretty dark premise to begin with. It is a prequel to an other *cough* much inferior *cough* story, which was shaped quite a lot by simply how much the events in Fate/Zero went downhill. Fate/Zero has an ensemble cast like ASoIaF with somewhere around 20 main characters and only two of them appear in the series it is a prequel to, implying that all others died horribly during the events it depicts. And they do! But every single character and his journey has a destinct theme and you never ever get the feeling their deaths are meaningless. They either learn some cruel lesson in their last moments or brought it upon themselves with their inherent character flaws. And every single death is crazily well directed and emotionally gripping, not because they were graphical, but because you deeply care for the characters. 90% of them are horrible people, but they the narrative still brings out their best qualities and lets them visibly evolve. That's something I expect from GoT. Not shock, but journeys with fulfilling ends. If these ends are the death of a well-liked character, I can live with that. But it really needs to support that.

[kissdbyfire]

Yes, I miss caring for the characters. Now I don't give a rat's arse what happens to most of them, and the ones I like most I just want to see dead - it's the only way they can be protected from the Ds ideas.

Sense8 achieves that very quickly, I'm completely invested in these characters' stories and fates. And while bad things do happen, there are lots of uplifting moments too. Characters who are in love with each other, and you root for them. The 8 main characters are what they call a 'cluster' - a group that was born on the same date and that, despite being scattered all over the globe, have a telepathic connection to each other. And of course, there's an evil corporation hunting them down and lobotomising them. There are straight characters, gay characters, one trans character, and they're all great.
Last night I was watching ep 6 or 7, and when I realised I was literally on the edge of the sofa, completely into the story, and rooting like crazy while Nomi tried to escape.

I can't remember when was the last time GoT had me on the edge of my seat. I can't remember when was the last time I really rooted for anything or anyone.

[Le Cygne]

Sansa has baggage, books and show. Stannis didn't want her in Winterfell because she was a Lannister, and on the show she is a Bolton. In the books, the Vale lords and Harry are wise to LF, and Sansa seems to be at the very least his puppet. Perhaps worse. Bran and Rickon are the true heirs before Sansa, and they don't have this baggage.

Also where I was going with this, I think something may happen to shake things up.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I wanted Sansa to die at the end of the season rather than have her suffer more rape and deception that seems to be following her now that the actress is over 18. Season 5 was very depressing with absolutely nothing going good for the Starks whatsoever. Also, the Lannister whitewashing is sickening too. I do not like Tyrion in the books and on the show he is getting on my nerves constantly. I would love someone to kill him just to shut his smartass mouth. Cersie, who is the personification of the evil queen in the books is humanized and pittied to the point of nausea. When the murdering of Robert's bastards was Joff's command on the show instead of her as in the books, the whitewashing became apparent. People need to rewatch season one to remember how it was this twistedbitch that got things started, that and her incestuous pussy whipped twin Jaime.

[kissdbyfire]

I think it's very likely GoT will turn exactly into what Martin didn't want. A plain dumb story about good v evil. Only because these guys don't get it, and worse, they really seem to have taken a nihilistic route to arrive, in the end, at a good x evil showdown.

And that will make everything even worse. We'll have 68 episodes of this bullshit with no hope, no tender moments, just shock after shock after shock with tons of boobs in between them. Then, the last two episodes will deal with everything in a very rushed and completely unbelievable way and THE END.

[protar]

Anyone watched/is watching Sense8? I started watching it on Netflix the day before yesterday; watched 4 eps and 4 more last night. I admit I'm a bit apprehensive with how the next seasons will go. The Washowski brothers seem to have the same problem JJ Abrahams does. It all starts out fun and interesting (The Matrix, Lost, Fringe), but then they seem to go off the rails in a spectacular way. That said, so far so good. And there are so many lessons for the Ds here... The first few minutes of the first episode manage to develop characters way better than GoT's whole s 5, and that's with very little dialogue.

 

I watched it a few weeks ago. I liked it very much. That said, even had GoT turned out good it would have been a very different show to Sense8, but D+D could certainly learn a lot about character development from it. 

[kissdbyfire]

I watched it a few weeks ago. I liked it very much. That said, even had GoT turned out good it would have been a very different show to Sense8, but D+D could certainly learn a lot about character development from it.

Oh absolutely, I didn't mean they're similar in any way! Still, tons of lessons for D&D&C (at this point I find it unfair to blame only the Ds, Cogman deserves to be named as co-perpetrator of this atrocity), not only in terms of character development, but how to handle things in general.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

 

Mmh, sounds actually pretty interesting. J. M. Straczynski is for me always a guarantee for very decent writing.

 

I had already gushed about it when we talked about an ASoIaF-Anime, but I would also very much like to rub Fate/Zero under the nose of the two of them. It was a literature adaption and the source material has a pretty dark premise to begin with. It is a prequel to an other *cough* much inferior *cough* story, which was shaped quite a lot by simply how much the events in Fate/Zero went downhill. Fate/Zero has an ensemble cast like ASoIaF with somewhere around 20 main characters and only two of them appear in the series it is a prequel to, implying that all others died horribly during the events it depicts. And they do! But every single character and his journey has a destinct theme and you never ever get the feeling their deaths are meaningless. They either learn some cruel lesson in their last moments or brought it upon themselves with their inherent character flaws. And every single death is crazily well directed and emotionally gripping, not because they were graphical, but because you deeply care for the characters. 90% of them are horrible people, but they the narrative still brings out their best qualities and lets them visibly evolve. That's something I expect from GoT. Not shock, but journeys with fulfilling ends. If these ends are the death of a well-liked character, I can live with that. But it really needs to support that.

 

They could also learn a lot from Knights of Sidonia, which manages to get in the occasional obligatory fan-service, relationship/harem elements while still being grimdark as hell and maintaining a pretty high rating on the Mohs scale for sci-fi.  KoS does a great job of playing to mecha Anime tropes while giving them valid, in-world reasons for existing (part of the reason it remains high on the Mohs scale).  The point being you can pander to your fanbase a little while still building an interesting, worthwhile narrative.

[Toth]

Yes, I miss caring for the characters. Now I don't give a rat's arse what happens to most of them, and the ones I like most I just want to see dead - it's the only way they can be protected from the Ds ideas.

 

The fun thing is, Fate/Zero's themes can be considered as in the same nihilistic veine GoT is at the moment. There are these 14 people in pairs of two, every single one has a wish that can only be accomplished by killing the other teams. And in a twist that basically everyone and their mother sees coming, of course there is no omnipotent wish-granting device they are fighting for. Okay, there is, but it is a jerkass genie that twists every wish to the worst possible meaning of it. Like when Kerry tries to wish for "World Peace" and that would be granted by basically murdering every single human being on Earth, thus making conflict between humans impossible.

 

It seemed all completely meaningless... until you think about the story and realize that it all was about the strive for possible and impossible dreams. Every single character had his own take on that subject and it all played out according to their to how they tackled their wishes and their flaws and strengths. Sure, the 'bad guys' basically won by default as the only survivors, but it ended on a hopeful note that the next generation is going to do better and it was still very fulfilling because hell, every single death felt meaningful and had a great impact upon the viewer, simply through themes and their execution. So what will happen after the final episode of season 7 Got is over? Will people look back and think that everything had a meaning? Of course, some will, like all those who still desperately try to cling to the hope that D&D totally know what they are doing. But it will mostly just being remembered as the series where 'everyone could die' with 'shocking' twists and nudity and violence and dragons. Nobody can hold debates about the meaning of character arcs because there never was one. And it's sad, because the books tell us there should be some.

[A Ghost of Someone]

 

The fun thing is, Fate/Zero's themes can be considered as in the same nihilistic veine GoT is at the moment. There are these 14 people in pairs of two, every single one has a wish that can only be accomplished by killing the other teams. And in a twist that basically everyone and their mother sees coming, of course there is no omnipotent wish-granting device they are fighting for. Okay, there is, but it is a jerkass genie that twists every wish to the worst possible meaning of it. Like when Kerry tries to wish for "World Peace" and that would be granted by basically murdering every single human being on Earth, thus making conflict between humans impossible.

 

It seemed all completely meaningless... until you think about the story and realize that it all was about the strive for possible and impossible dreams. Every single character had his own take on that subject and it all played out according to their to how they tackled their wishes and their flaws and strengths. Sure, the 'bad guys' basically won by default as the only survivors, but it ended on a hopeful note that the next generation is going to do better and it was still very fulfilling because hell, every single death felt meaningful and had a great impact upon the viewer, simply through themes and their execution. So what will happen after the final episode of season 7 Got is over? Will people look back and think that everything had a meaning? Of course, some will, like all those who still desperately try to cling to the hope that D&D totally know what they are doing. But it will mostly just being remembered as the series where 'everyone could die' with 'shocking' twists and nudity and violence and dragons. Nobody can hold debates about the meaning of character arcs because there never was one. And it's sad, because the books tell us there should be some.

The deviation to have Sansa raped will never be forgotten. Jon's fate is book cannon, but her's, that was their twisted wish for the character/actress I think.