GRRM on Gendry and Arya (Allegedly)

[Balerion the kitten]

That doesn't even make sense considering that the 'desire' is driven by the wrongdoings done to her family & friends.

It kinda does, but whatever. Would explain, but it seems anytime I do it's only helping to derail the thread. This isn't what the topics about, and i really can't be bothered continuing this.

[Darkstream]

Okay last comment now. Because Arya is a traumatised girl. If you think she can grow up and mature and live her life like other people despite all the mentally scarring things she's seen, then fine.

I'm not sure why your being so defensive after posting your thoughts on a public forum but ok.

I feel like that's a very defeatist attitude to have. I don't want to put words in your mouth but it seems like your implying that if someone is traumatized at a young age, then they should just give up on their life.

[sweetsunray]

I second this one.  I think some people get swayed a bit by the chemistry (and perhaps real life friendship) between Williams and Dempsie on the show.  Gendry and Arya just don't seem like each other's "types" past close friendship.  Sansa seems more like the girly-girl maiden who would impress Gendry and make him a better, more traditional wife.  I just don't see Arya being happy as the doting wife of an ex-blacksmith, and I don't see Gendry wanting to be married to a woman who digs her assassin life.

 

Hmmm, and yet Willow is the copy stand in of Arya at the Orphan's inn. Gendry doesn't really like ladies. Too bloody highborn.

[sweetsunray]

Once again, not getting into an argument over this. But in case you haven't noticed, all of the elements that once made up Arya are basically gone. All that's left is her desire for revenge
[spoiler]If you have read the mercy chapter you'd know what I'm talking about - since the only thing in that chapter that resembled Arya, was the fact she wanted to kill someone from her list. (Raff)[/spoiler]

 

[spoiler]I've read the Mercy chapter meticulously. Conclusion she was to do a mission that night "to be raped and murdered" and cause trouble for the Sealord and envoy. There's no murder in the play, only the rape. She brings a "real" blade along, short enough to be put into a sleeve, but not hers nor mercy's, so it's a blade given to her by the FM. Real blades aren't used on stage. It has to happen that night at that play especially written by a Forel (related to Syrio, ex-first sword of the previous Sealord who was killed and ousted), and the Sealord visits that theatre for the first time ever. And then she thanks the gods for giving her a gift. In other words - the current Sealord must be brought into a scandalous situation in relation to the Lannister-Tyrell envoy. The Sealord and envoy visit a theatre that's filled to the nook with commoners - not the rich and wealthy. What's the scandal? That an actress called Mercy, a maiden who  hasn't even flowered yet, ends up being raped and murdered by one of the envoy's guards. "In the fog all men are killers." The guard raped, murdered and then dumped her body, before fleeing himself. We have a JTR on the loose kind of thing. Huge scandal, and the sealord some people want to be well rid off goes down poltically and the Iron Bank can wash their hands off of Lannisters...Since of course scandalous Queens who had to do a walk of shame, would have murderous pervs in their guard retinues. What nobody, neither the FM nor Arya, knew beforehand was that the ideal scapegoat candidate with an immensely monstrous reputation would be someone she knew and was on her list. The bloody mess of the murder was intentional. There must be as much blood found in the room as possible. She only needs to make the guard disappear as well. Everything she did was mission, except for the personal touch of putting him into emotional stress about bleeding like a pig and driving the blade through his throat.[/spoiler]

[sweetsunray]

I don't know what your trying to prove.
Revenge is caused by wrongs done to someone or to someone that person cared about. I said I viewed Arya's story as more of a revenge tragedy.
Anyway, last comment. Since I don't have any intention of derailing a thread.

 

Several people on her list never wronged her, her family or her friends. But they tortured, raped, murdered with great pleasure common people and strangers she didn't know herself.

[Darkstream]

But I do want to recommend that you check out the discussion of Arya in sweetsunray's analysis of her in the Valkyrie role.  It's good reading and covers the issue of revenge vs justice.

Ha, funny, was going to say the same thing.

[arabian]

I honestly have no clue how anyone read that quote from George and got anything but "Ooh, yeah, Arya/Gendry got a chance!" if they're a fan or "OK, fine, whatever, they're not dashed, darn!" if they don't like the pairing.   He said "Keep reading."   As long as he ended the statement with that, he pretty much left it open for anything to happen.  ANYTHING.  I read the full quote and I was like YEAH, BABY!  That quote is way better than I thought it was, woohoo!   Especially considering where Arya is right now, it makes perfect sense that it's gonna be a long while before that girl is thinking of anything related to romance.   So, I'm happy as a clam with that quote as an Arya/Gendry shipper considering how close to the vest GRRM keeps things.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

[skip]

 

 

Wow, you really do your homework :lol:

 

She wasn't hard to find. She seems to keep working here: http://archiveofourown.org/users/xxsupernaturalgalxx/pseuds/xxsupernaturalgalxx

 

and this seems to be her tumblr: http://xxsupernaturalgalxx.tumblr.com/(there is quite a NSFW gif right there).

 

She updates both.

[Joan Jett]

 
 
Wow, you really do your homework :lol:
 
She wasn't hard to find. She seems to keep working here: http://archiveofourown.org/users/xxsupernaturalgalxx/pseuds/xxsupernaturalgalxx
 
and this seems to be her tumblr: http://xxsupernaturalgalxx.tumblr.com/(there is quite a NSFW gif right there).
 
She updates both.

Thanks! I don't know why I didn't keep searching for the author *facepalm*

[Joan Jett]

I honestly have no clue how anyone read that quote from George and got anything but "Ooh, yeah, Arya/Gendry got a chance!" if they're a fan or "OK, fine, whatever, they're not dashed, darn!" if they don't like the pairing.   He said "Keep reading."   As long as he ended the statement with that, he pretty much left it open for anything to happen.  ANYTHING.  I read the full quote and I was like YEAH, BABY!  That quote is way better than I thought it was, woohoo!   Especially considering where Arya is right now, it makes perfect sense that it's gonna be a long while before that girl is thinking of anything related to romance.   So, I'm happy as a clam with that quote as an Arya/Gendry shipper considering how close to the vest GRRM keeps things.

OK so you interpreted the quote positively, but how do you explain the author, who also ships Gendry/Arya, being sad about it?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As for the quote, I guess it means what people want it to mean. To me, it means that they will meet again but not necessarily will "end up together".

 

And it makes sense. Arya will return very broken to Westeros, after all the things she has done and seen. Gendry could even be a part of her "recovery" but not in a sexual/romantic way.

 

 

 

Hmmm, and yet Willow is the copy stand in of Arya at the Orphan's inn. Gendry doesn't really like ladies. Too bloody highborn.

 

We don't know what Gendry likes because we haven't seen him except in life-threatening situations. Of course, considering he was running for his life, a girl like Arya is more useful than someone like Sansa. That doesn't mean he would want her as a wife in the future.

 

Gendry seems to be a decent guy. He definitely realised that hooking up with Bella would "offend" or annoy Arya and he stopped. He seems to be a man who would want a quiet tranquil life with a similar wife.

[Darksnider05]

I don't get people who think Arya will be broken and in need of a shoulder to cry on.  Than again it kinda seems like people want her to come home and transform into a gentle sweet natured other character and forget abut the reality of life.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't get people who think Arya will be broken and in need of a shoulder to cry on.  Than again it kinda seems like people want her to come home and transform into a gentle sweet natured other character and forget abut the reality of life.

 

GRRM has shaped her as a "child soldier". They are also victims in war, as much as those who are in the losing/attacked part.

 

I don't think we're meant to see Arya and cheer for what she has become. Of course, most of her actions seem "badass" at first, but we're talking about a little girl who has already murdered people, who is training to be an assassin and who has even

 

[spoiler]

used her own body to get away with a murder

[/spoiler]

 

If you ever read a lot of the stories of children who are kidnapped or training to be soldiers by guerrillas or terrorist groups, you would find a similar pattern. We're not mean to believe that one of those children using weapons and knowing how to kill are cool, right?

[Blackwater Saint]

Hmmm, and yet Willow is the copy stand in of Arya at the Orphan's inn. Gendry doesn't really like ladies. Too bloody highborn.

Hmm, and yet Willow isn't training to be an assassin, losing more and more of her originally sparse traditional femininity. Ans Sansa is far from the traditional lady she once was and has toughened up. And did you just say "bloody"? I truly hope you're actually English...;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Thanks! I don't know why I didn't keep searching for the author *facepalm*

 

LOL, it's ok.

 

(I used to work finding information online for... people ¬¬)

 

Anyway, it would be great to know the author's opinion about GRRM's quote. I mean, for a G/A fan it must be terrible to hear. That doesn't mean her interpretation is correct.

[Winter's Cold]

 

GRRM has shaped her as a "child soldier". They are also victims in war, as much as those who are in the losing/attacked part.

 

I don't think we're meant to see Arya and cheer for what she has become. Of course, most of her actions seem "badass" at first, but we're talking about a little girl who has already murdered people, who is training to be an assassin and who has even

 

[spoiler]

used her own body to get away with a murder

[/spoiler]

 

If you ever read a lot of the stories of children who are kidnapped or training to be soldiers by guerrillas or terrorist groups, you would find a similar pattern. We're not mean to believe that one of those children using weapons and knowing how to kill are cool, right?

 

In Westeros its either do as Arya does or get raped and/or murdered. Would you rather Arya be Jeyne Poole?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In Westeros its either do as Arya does or get raped and/or murdered. Would you rather Arya be Jeyne Poole?

 

Are you saying that women have only two options in life? Being raped or be murdered? There are a lot of ladies who haven't been raped and are still alive.

 

Take Sansa.

 

And if you say that she hasn't been raped/murdered because "plot", we can say the same about Arya. She's lucky to have survived a lot of things that in a more realistic scenario would get her killed.

 

A woman -or any person, tbh- raped is  tragedy. No denying on that. But having to kill to survive, dehumanize yourself in order to become an assassin, to lose your own identity and forget everything you are is also a tragedy. Is a tragedy we see many times in children in the world, specially male children. They are indoctrinated into being soldiers. Should we say "well, being raped is worst"?. We only introduce the idea of "Arya is lucky she wasn't raped" bc she's a girl. There are also girl soldiers who end up raped, though. I suppose boys are raped as well, don't have statistics at hand.

 

Again, Arya had choices. KM told her she could be many things. She choose to be an assassin. She had the option to have a more quiet life (something the children I mentioned above don't) in Braavos. She chose not. That's very sad because I'm sure mostly of the characters in the books would choose so. Jon admitted he wanted a normal life with a wife and a kid.

[Darksnider05]

I'm sure Jon wanted his family to not be butchered as well.  In fact I'm sure everyone in the books wants that not to happen.  Bur reality has nothing to do with what you want.  That quiet life your talking about would actually truly require Arya to forget who she is and everything that she comes from to have it.

 

Congratulations on not understanding what it means to have a sense of self.  To have a quiet life in Bravos she would have to change her name and never be Arya again no breaks forget her past family and everything.

[Winter's Cold]

 

Are you saying that women have only two options in life? Being raped or be murdered? There are a lot of ladies who haven't been raped and are still alive.

 

Take Sansa.

 

And if you say that she hasn't been raped/murdered because "plot", we can say the same about Arya. She's lucky to have survived a lot of things that in a more realistic scenario would get her killed.

 

A woman -or any person, tbh- raped is  tragedy. No denying on that. But having to kill to survive, dehumanize yourself in order to become an assassin, to lose your own identity and forget everything you are is also a tragedy. Is a tragedy we see many times in children in the world, specially male children. They are indoctrinated into being soldiers. Should we say "well, being raped is worst"?. We only introduce the idea of "Arya is lucky she wasn't raped" bc she's a girl. There are also girl soldiers who end up raped, though. I suppose boys are raped as well, don't have statistics at hand.

 

Again, Arya had choices. KM told her she could be many things. She choose to be an assassin. She had the option to have a more quiet life (something the children I mentioned above don't) in Braavos. She chose not. That's very sad because I'm sure mostly of the characters in the books would choose so. Jon admitted he wanted a normal life with a wife and a kid.

 

Sansa is being sold like a horse by Littlefinger. She was also almost raped during the Riot at King's Landing. Jeyne Poole is what happens to Arya if she decides to be a normal girl. I like Arya being a predator better than I like Arya being a victim.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 

Sansa is being sold like a horse by Littlefinger. She was also almost raped during the Riot at King's Landing. Jeyne Poole is what happens to Arya if she decides to be a normal girl. I like Arya being a predator better than I like Arya being a victim.

 

How is not Arya a victim of the circumstances? :dunno:

 

I think you're assuming that because Sansa is taking now a more passive role, she's a victim. She is not. For once, she hasn't yet married Harry the Heir.

 

Let's not take Cersei's definition of medieval marriages as a fact. She claims a marriage is for the woman being "sold like a mare" while she had zero problem to be mounted by Rhaegar whenever he wanted despite she didn't know him. Also, would you consider Cat being a horse in her marriage to Ned? I doubt that, despite his political intentions, Hoster Tully saw her daughter as some object he could  bargain. He found her the best husband he believed he could find. Wouldn't you believe Ned would be the same with her children?

 

The definition people from the times that inspired ASOIAF have about marriage is not our own. The concept of marriage was a duty to their families, a way to bind two houses in one for political purposes. Marriage for love is a very modern concept. GRRM himself has said that the idea of the girl running away from an arranged marriage would be unrealistic: they would try to honour their families in the best way they could. We assume that, in every marriage, the woman is always the victim. For once, not every husband was a tyrant that would rape them nor every men is willing to bed a woman they aren't comfortable with. And of course, women also have important roles to play in the newly formed societies that constituted their marriages.

 

If we compare Sansa with Arya, none of them is a victim. Even though Sansa has been betrothed here and there, she has refused to see herself as a victim. We saw her while Joffrey abused her and we saw how she shut down her feelings whenever Tyrion wanted her to approach her, something that kept him away from her. There is no way she didn't have the upper hand there. Had Arya been married to Tyrion or Joffrey, she could have done something that ended up killing her too in order to escape. And she probably wouldn't mind. They have different ways to survive and they both work because they both are alive and struggling with keeping their own identities. It's not coincidence they both have now different identities.