Ice Walker Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 which it may have come down to....better to have and not need than need and not have Had renly not betrayed him and taken the stormlords with him it prob would have been his opening move after roberts deaths and neds arrest and execution Oh please. Stannis won't trust both of his brothers with the truth, but still expects them to listen to him. With his communication skills, I doubt he would be a decent king, let alone best among the three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Walker Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Renly wanted to please his Boyfriend and changing Lannisters with Tyrells. He saw the Lannisters as political opponents to achieve the most power. Renly's claim was worse than Stannis, and crowning himself king was an attack to his nephews rights, he thought that they were not Jaime's sons and his older brother. Actually, no. He wanted Ned to take control with Joffrey as the King. Once Cersei got control, he thought it would be too late for both Ned and himself. And it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Renly literally says Cersei was going to kill him. He didn't even care if the Tyrells got the power instead of him ( hence the possible Robert - Margaery marriage). He would have left Ned as regent and protector of the realm. When that failed, he said "Fuck it. I'll crown myself since I don't want to die." Renly's claim was no worse than Stannis' from the crown's perspective. What's the difference between jumping 4 spots or 1? They are both treason in the eyes of the "rightful" king. And once again, I cannot stress this enough, his nephews by proxy of their mother were planning on murdering him (and his older brother). Cersei was Queen regent. She spoke for Joffrey and later Tommen. Lol Renly's claim was worse than Stannis from all the laws in Westeros saying that his claim was not worse is just a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Oh please. Stannis won't trust both of his brothers with the truth, but still expects them to listen to him. With his communication skills, I doubt he would be a decent king, let alone best among the three. who says he didnt tell renly (if he didnt already know ) its robert who he felt wouldnt believe him without jon His communication skills are just fine its just his realtionship with the king , not that renly was any better liked either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Robert wouldn't have. Cersei or Jaime would have. Because you know Robert wouldn't keep his mouth shut. Either he believes it and goes yelling to confront Cersei and Jaime, or he doesn't believe it and tells it as a joke at dinner that night. But Stannis wasn't scared of Cersei or Jaime after Robert's death. Convenient, no? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 But Stannis wasn't scared of Cersei or Jaime after Robert's death. Convenient, no? ;) Who said he wasn't? After Robert's death the kingdom was in a huge civil war, in which Stannis could inform about the incest without being in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Who said he wasn't? After Robert's death the kingdom was in a huge civil war, in which Stannis could inform about the incest without being in trouble.I'm not going to go back and forth with you, I'm well aware of your opinion on the matter after reading through this thread. Stannis was wrong not to tell Robert about his suspicions imo. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Aegon IV was immensely popular, with every flatterer, scammer, flim-flammer, and sycophant in the realm. The serious, the virtuous, and the able, all flocked to his son Daeron when Daeron was old enough to be a force himself. You know who else was popular? Lord Tytos Lannister. People walked all over him, they mocked him and he laughed along with them. Popularity means nothing without respect...especially in positions of power. Puppets are popular. Weak men are popular. Loras and Olenna had. There's no evidence that Renly even tried. Renly was neither an Aegon IV or Tytos (through Stannis fans seem think he should have jumped at the chance to become one) thus there is no reason to believe he would turn out like either of those two. Moreover, I doubt either were really all that popular. Loras does say Renly would be the best of them. Which seems to hold more weight then a sly reference that Renly wasn't a big reader a trait that is at best connected to three characters (Tyrion, Sam, and Oberyn) while not being mentioned in connection to many prominent and important characters. Wow, a bitter old woman that like insulting people doesn't speak favorable about someone after they are dead and serve no benefit to her while her family is now aligned with his enemies and in fact she is sitting in their capital. We see Renly putting pressure on Slynt when he was trying to make excuses for failing at his job during the Hand's tournament. He spends his life as master of laws ..a powerful position if used correctly but is utterly ineffecitve in stopping the rot in KL Not if the King doesn't care to stop it. Not even Jon Arryn could put an end to the corruption and he had much more power and weight with Robert. .ignoring the precedent this sets and pretty much aware it sets him on a collision course with stannis that only one man can come out of alive The same precedent that both his brothers created? That seems to be Stannis' problem not his seeing how he declared first not Stannis. Moreover, seeing how he saw the alternative as being death I can understand why he didn't care about the precedent. we know from cressen the man who educated him hes not suitable ''The youngest of Lord Steffon's three sons had grown into a man bold but heedless, who acted from impulse rather than calculation.'' Cressen didn't educate him as he left Renly when he was six. Moreover, that quote better fits Stannis then it doesn't Renly. Seeing how Renly came up with the calculated long game plans to win the throne. While, Stannis thinks the tactic of rushing a defense fortification that has an army in the field is the height of brilliance with him wanting to do it three times. Noye is equally useless (especially with him being wrong about the other brothers), while I addressed Olenna above. .its hard to see anyone who's left with an impression of respect from interacting with him You know besides the 100s of thousands of people that followed him. Along with people like Randyll Tarly and Lady Oakheart who both mentioned as loving him in the same breath as Loras and Brienne by Penrose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Renly was neither an Aegon IV or Tytos (through Stannis fans seem think he should have jumped at the chance to become one) thus there is no reason to believe he would turn out like either of those two. Moreover, I doubt either were really all that popular. Loras does say Renly would be the best of them. Which seems to hold more weight then a sly reference that Renly wasn't a big reader a trait that is at best connected to three characters (Tyrion, Sam, and Oberyn) while not being mentioned in connection to many prominent and important characters. Wow, a bitter old woman that like insulting people doesn't speak favorable about someone after they are dead and serve no benefit to her while her family is now aligned with his enemies and in fact she is sitting in their capital. We see Renly putting pressure on Slynt when he was trying to make excuses for failing at his job during the Hand's tournament. Not if the King doesn't care to stop it. Not even Jon Arryn could put an end to the corruption and he had much more power and weight with Robert. The same precedent that both his brothers created? That seems to be Stannis' problem not his seeing how he declared first not Stannis. Moreover, seeing how he saw the alternative as being death I can understand why he didn't care about the precedent. Cressen didn't educate him as he left Renly when he was six. Moreover, that quote better fits Stannis then it doesn't Renly. Seeing how Renly came up with the calculated long game plans to win the throne. While, Stannis thinks the tactic of rushing a defense fortification that has an army in the field is the height of brilliance with him wanting to do it three times. Noye is equally useless (especially with him being wrong about the other brothers), while I addressed Olenna above. You know besides the 100s of thousands of people that followed him. Along with people like Randyll Tarly and Lady Oakheart who both mentioned as loving him in the same breath as Loras and Brienne by Penrose.Loras was his boyfriend I would say that he is obviously. I think that Cresssen's opinion is more objective than Loras' opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Loras was his boyfriend I would say that he is obviously. I think that Cresssen's opinion is more objective than Loras' opinion. It's still worthless cressen hasn't seen renly since renly was 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Loras was his boyfriend I would say that he is obviously. I think that Cresssen's opinion is more objective than Loras' opinion. I would say they are equally objective. What with Cressen repeatedly thinking how he favors Stannis and how he likely hasn't seen Renly since he was six or seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I would say they are equally objective. What with Cressen repeatedly thinking how he favors Stannis and how he likely hasn't seen Renly since he was six or seven. Cressen loved Renly too, he may be wrong, but he was not as biased as Loras saying that Renly was the very best thing ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Cressen loved Renly too, he may be wrong, but he was not as biased as Loras saying that Renly was the very best thing ever. He is still coming with it just as much bias as Renly is going against his favorite son. So if we are going to accept his criticism (which we see as being wrong) then we should equally accept Loras' praise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 He is still coming with it just as much bias as Renly is going against his favorite son. So if we are going to accept his criticism (which we see as being wrong) then we should equally accept Loras' praise. I said that Cressen was more objective, never said that he was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I said that Cressen was more objective, never said that he was right. I would say Loras is equally as objective as he at least had recently meet most of the other claimants. While, Cressen is talking about someone he hasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 I would say Loras is equally as objective as he at least had recently meet most of the other claimants. While, Cressen is talking about someone he hasn't. Cressen knows Renly. He may not know that he has change, we dont know either, and Loras was in love with him. I dont think Loras' opinion is relevant for judging Renly as a person and ruler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Cressen knows Renly. He may not know that he has change, we dont know either, and Loras was in love with him. I dont think Loras' opinion is relevant for judging Renly as a person and ruler. And I don't think Cressen's opinion on someone that he last knew when he was six who is an opponent to man that he thinks of as a son is any more relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragons Hand Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Renly. Robert spent all of his time and money on his personal desires, but lived because he inspired loyalty and didn't mess with anyone political agenda. Stannis would most certainly mess with everyones political agenda and even Davos can't teach the Black Iron King to compromise. His reign would only last until he seriously pissed off the wrong person, or group of people. Renly was a charmer by most everyone's accounts, and his use of Maegaery proves he plays the game to a moderately good level. He's not a good person and his vain nature permeates every part of his being, but out of these three options he's the best. What's wrong with holding a tournament to determine a position in his KG? What else should they be judged on besides their martial abilities? Loyalty for one. Although Renly also had that in mind and got it covered. He's more competent than he usually gets credit for. That was the right thing to do. Why ahould he have attacked his enemies when they were at their best? "But how could he not predict that Stannis would attack him with a shadowbaby that we know of literally no defense against?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 And I don't think Cressen's opinion on someone that he last knew when he was six who is an opponent to man that he thinks of as a son is any more relevant. So we can agree that both opinions are worthless. I was just saying that Cressen's opinion was more objective, even if he misjudge him or was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Stannis in a society without nobility, and Renly in the world of Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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