U.S. Politics - are you born on this board?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Hayyoth:

Here's a thought: why don't you tell me what my position is on immigration reform first, and then if I let you know you're right, you can proceed to declare that my point of view is in lockstep with the Chamber of Commerce's?
 

 

This is rich coming from the person who caricatured my actual position on immigration just a page ago, and has been deliberately confusing the issue this whole thread. 

 

How to deal with the immigrants already living in the U.S. is a very different question than how to address immigration going forward. Hayyoth and I are arguing that America belongs to the people already living here, including the illegals. It does not belong to people all over the world who intend to come here. We don't owe the latter group shit, and can restrict, pick and choose as we please. 

[Ser Reptitious]

It does not belong to people all over the world who intend to come here. We don't owe the latter group shit, and can restrict, pick and choose as we please.

Yes, but one of the main concerns you expressed was alarmism over the way the new arrivals look and speak. The 'look' part in particular seems to be the most troubling to me. Why should it matter if a majority of people around you have a different skin colour than you or your children?

[maarsen]

 

This is rich coming from the person who caricatured my actual position on immigration just a page ago, and has been deliberately confusing the issue this whole thread. 

 

How to deal with the immigrants already living in the U.S. is a very different question than how to address immigration going forward. Hayyoth and I are arguing that America belongs to the people already living here, including the illegals. It does not belong to people all over the world who intend to come here. We don't owe the latter group shit, and can restrict, pick and choose as we please. 

They come whether you want them to or not. Consider it like the war on drugs. How's that working out? The only difference is that drugs coming in do not make you smarter.

[lokisnow]

I don't know that Germans were assimilated faster, my great grandfather came in a wave in the 1890s, they all settled in the same place and spoke german at home. My grandfather faced extensive discrimination growing up droppex out in eighth grade and even mystifyingly spent most of the war in the Aleutian islands, only used as a translator after d day.

[Lightysnake88]

 Yeah, the border you want to build this wall on? It's 1,933 miles, according to the U.S. Geological Survey. That’s approximately the length of 20 Berlin Walls. In order to be effective whatsoever , the wall'd need to have numerous layers, including multiple cement and chain-link barriers, barbed wire fencing, Czech Hedgehogs guard towers, dog-runs and so forth.,...and now you need to man it. How many people are going to man it? Divided over what amount of length? Every few hundred feet to be effective? Will you seize all those pockets of private property along the border as well?

 

a 670 mile fence from Maine to Hawaii cost about 2 billion dollars. That's just a fence. And how about the northern border?

[Wise Fool]

Maybe we could send prisoners there to man the wall. Let's make it 900 feet tall too. That'll keep the Others out!

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

There were German speaking communities and German newspapers all over the country until WWI. I guess we could declare war on Mexico and shame all Hispanics into speaking English and rename burritos into liberty wraps and tacos liberty sandwiches?

The economic arguments that conservatives make against strong unions and a higher minimum wage also apply (economically) against restricting immigration and trade. You'll be increasing prices for consumers and decreasing quality and this case it's for things like healthy foods and vegetables instead of fast food and one day Amazon deliveries. It also won't matter in the end because raising labor costs is just going to spur more research into automation. It'll be like manufacturing where plenty of it happens in this country but people don't notice because it doesn't require workers.

And even then there are plenty of reasons besides wages why poor black and white kids don't travel to the non fun parts of California to pick lettuce 16 hours a day.

[Ormond]

All of this is true, but the reasons do not change the statistics. I will quibble with you regarding language though: yes, a lot of immigrants from Europe and Asia study English before they come to the US, but studying is one thing and actually speaking it well enough to work in the US is another. Except for the elderly (who rarely bother to learn it) and for children (who more or less get it for free), most immigrants put a lot of effort into speaking English at the level that they do. The illegal immigrants from Mexico don't bother to do that and I can perfectly understand them because I did exactly the same thing with French while living in France: if everybody at work and at home speaks a language one already knows, it's not necessary to learn another language.
 

Correct. High school and college mean something completely different now than they did a hundred years ago. What I meant was that the Irish and German immigrants of the late 19th and early 20th century were assimilated into the general American society faster than the Mexicans of today despite the fact that there were also a great number of them and that nativism was certainly no weaker then than it is now.

 

I'm sorry, I just think you are wrong in your beliefs. I do not think there is any evidence that "illegal immigrants from Mexico" are "not bothering" to learn English at any higher rates than immigrants of similar educational levels in the present or the past, and I do not think you have any real evidence that Germans in the 19th century "assimilated into the general American society" faster than Mexicans do today. This looks to me like a belief which is not backed up by any real knowledge of what immigrants in the 19th or early 20th century were really like. 

[polishgenius]

 Yeah, the border you want to build this wall on? It's 1,933 miles, according to the U.S. Geological Survey. That’s approximately the length of 20 Berlin Walls. In order to be effective whatsoever , the wall'd need to have numerous layers, including multiple cement and chain-link barriers, barbed wire fencing, Czech Hedgehogs guard towers, dog-runs and so forth.,...and now you need to man it. How many people are going to man it? Divided over what amount of length? Every few hundred feet to be effective? Will you seize all those pockets of private property along the border as well?

 

 

What you're basically saying is that the only way to feasibly build and man such a wall is by drawing on the immigrant labour pool.

[Kelli Fury]

Only one of my 4 grandparents (for reference of their age, I'm 32) were/are originally English speakers. Of their parents (all of whom did live in the U.S.) only 2 of the 8 were ever fluent in English. I remember my grandpa reading Danish newspapers when I was a kid. In Northern Minnesota, this was not unusual at all. That Fargo accent that people think Minnesotans have? It comes from Scandinavian immigrants who settled here in my grandparents and great grandparents generations. My other grandparents are Ojibwe and not immigrants at all, so I still contend they never had any obligation to speak English or assimilate in any way (as I have mentioned, however, my grandma was kidnapped by the government and forced to assimilate by being beaten by the nuns who kept her every time she spoke Ojibwe but yeah assimilation is GREAT).

[Astromech]

Wouldn't  placing an invisible fence and having those south of the border, or north, wear electric collars be more feasible than building an actual wall? :)

 

But seriously, I'm finding the idea of assimilation a bit tougher to grasp in a nation founded on and constantly evolving from waves of immigration . I always felt being American was more the acceptance of the beliefs enshrined in the founding documents of our country. As other posters have stated, language has always been an issue with successive waves of immigrants and the arguments against immigration, specifically those concerning jobs and the "foreignness" of newcomers have been regurgitated ad nauseum by the "native" Americans of each period. The makeup of America is fluid and always has been.

[James Arryn]

I agree with those who say it was always thus. I disagree that people used to assimilate better; I'd like some data to support that assertion. I'd also be interested in what exactly assimilate means, and what it's inherent value is supposed to be. America is a very different place than it used to be, and will undoubtedly be a very different place in the future than it is now. I'm not sure what would be better about arresting change other than the fact that it makes some kinds of people uncomfortable.

[Guest]

Just an anecdote, but in Southern California there are certainly a lot of Latino folks.  I rarely come across anyone who doesn't speak some English.  Again, just an anecdote, but it makes me suspicious that nativist rage at people who "refuse to learn English" is overblown. 

[lokisnow]

Sheer economics forces second generation into adopting English because access to the best paying jobs and careers necessitates English while even Spanish speaking similar jobs are going to pay a lot less. An attorney leveraging Spanish skills to serve Spanish speaking clients isn't going to make as much if she leverages English skills to serve English speaking clients, on average, so second generation will largely make economic choices to maximize their earning potential by accessing an English fluent world their parents can't participate in.

[Hayyoth]

 Yeah, the border you want to build this wall on? It's 1,933 miles, according to the U.S. Geological Survey. That’s approximately the length of 20 Berlin Walls. In order to be effective whatsoever , the wall'd need to have numerous layers, including multiple cement and chain-link barriers, barbed wire fencing, Czech Hedgehogs guard towers, dog-runs and so forth.,...and now you need to man it. How many people are going to man it? Divided over what amount of length? Every few hundred feet to be effective? Will you seize all those pockets of private property along the border as well?

 

a 670 mile fence from Maine to Hawaii cost about 2 billion dollars. That's just a fence. And how about the northern border?

I can see someone doesn't like Keynesian economics much. 50 to a 100 billion, really I've no idea and I don't care. Considering how much the government wastes on completely useless shit then I'm happy to pay. And they built a fence from Hawaii to Maine? Tell me more.

 

 

 

 

What you're basically saying is that the only way to feasibly build and man such a wall is by drawing on the immigrant labour pool.

Ah the old 'immigrants are only doing the jobs Americans don't want' argument. Which is actually saying working class people are lazy and entitled. We're hearing how minority communitites in particular have not enjoyed the benefits of the economic recovery (such that it is). Might that have something to do with the massive pool of cheap surplus illegal labor on tap crowding them out of the job market?

[lokisnow]

I'm also very curious about a Hawaii to Maine fence!

[Wise Fool]

 

 

 

 

Ah the old 'immigrants are only doing the jobs Americans don't want' argument. Which is actually saying working class people are lazy and entitled.

It's actually you saying working class people are lazy and entitled. The argument doesn't imply that in the slightest. You were really just looking for an excuse to discharge your "poor people are lazy and entitled" pus because that's what your right-wing infection does to you.

[Hayyoth]

It's actually you saying working class people are lazy and entitled. The argument doesn't imply that in the slightest. You were really just looking for an excuse to discharge your "poor people are lazy and entitled" pus because that's what your right-wing infection does to you.

That wasn't even a good deflection, what was that? I'm arguing working class people aren't lazy and entitled, that they'd happily take the jobs that are being given to immigrants but not at $6 an hour with no benefits. You seem to be twisting yourself into a painful knot. Explain how encouraging illegal immigration is good for the American working class? Take your time.

[The Fallen]

Yeah, the second generation of any group basically grows up as American, which includes speaking American (English). The kids almost always serve as interpreters for the parents.

I consider my experience to be similar to what immigrants experience, in terms of assimilating. I was born in Puerto Rico (a U.S. citizen), came here when I was five and we've been here over 30 years. I consider myself to be just as American as the whitest Ramsay.

I don't what you think immigrants will be changing about America? If they wanted to experience a government like the one from their home nations they would have just stayed there.

I also find it interesting that the people who freak out the most about things like immigration are those who have no experience with actual immigrants.

[Shryke]

There's nothing actually wrong with a bunch of people in your country speaking another language. Just, you know, accept that the US is becoming more bilingual.