Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[sweetsunray]

Honestly have no idea why so many people are willing to bend over backwards logically to support such a minor character, but are so quick to dismiss one of the main protagonists of the story

 

Honestly, have no idea why so many people are willing to bend over backwards to defy all reason and logic, pin everybody else's choices and actions done out of free will on a minor character and dismiss that a main protagonist made a giant mistake in judgement. GRRM does not write his protagonists as being infallable, not in judgement, not in choices, not in actions. GRRM does not write minor characters to be jsut red shirts.

[sweetsunray]

 

I am sort of there with you. However, it is a life for a life so I think Rhaego's life reanimated only one of the eggs. In the HotU Dany sees a vision of a dragon bursting from Mirri's forehead, so I think her life force reanimated one of the eggs and Drogo the third.

 

I think Drogo reanimated the black egg (Drogon). I go back and forth about which of the other two eggs Mirri reanimated. When Quaithe gives her warning about the mummer's dragon, I think it is a warning about an actual dragon. When Dany first sees Tyrion he is a mummer. Not just sort of a mummer but an actual mummer. Therefore, whichever dragon Tyrion ends up with is the dragon I think Quaithe is warning Dany about.

 

I think Mirri's animus will turn that dragon against Dany.

 

Viserion is the heart dragon I believe. Rhaegal seems to be the smart one. ;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It would also mean that a bit of Rhaego is in each of the dragons.  Drogon and Rhaegal got the fierceness, Viserion the sweetness, Drogon the physical dominance, Rhaegal the cunning and jealousy, Viserion the affection and gentleness (well as much as any dragon could be gentle).  Dany is the mother of dragons because the dragons are her son split in three.  Or maybe I just need more sleep.

WOW. Can I marry your theory?

 

btw, by blood, Rhaego had some of Drogo's, Viserys's and Rhaegar's. So, technically, he could have passed things from them to the dragons.

 

There are been theories about the Dosh Khaleen having Rhaego (who never actually died). I would love for this to happen and it's my one fav. crackpot I'm waiting to happen (but it won't), but I think it's likely that they will explain Dany that Rhaego was indeed THE ONE needed.

[Taenqyrhae]

 

I'm sorry that I misunderstood your point. Yes, Mirri's assessment of Drogo's mind was way too early to make such an assessment.

Mirri may have been aware of what happens to Khals who are no longer seen as strong - she may have been speaking the truth saying "He will never ride again" without saying recovery was impossible - she may have known that Drogo might recover one day, if he had a chance, but that would never happen.  Does anyone doubt that Drogo would end up dead by somebody elses hand if Dany did try to nurse him back to health?

Example - someone telling Lommy that his injured legs meant he would never walk again - it's not saying that his legs were incapable of healing, just prophetic knowledge that he would be killed for those injured legs before tehy had a chance to heal.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 

Honestly, have no idea why so many people are willing to bend over backwards to defy all reason and logic, pin everybody else's choices and actions done out of free will on a minor character and dismiss that a main protagonist made a giant mistake in judgement. GRRM does not write his protagonists as being infallable, not in judgement, not in choices, not in actions. GRRM does not write minor characters to be jsut red shirts.

 

Through the whole thread I've never even discussed whether the involvement of Dany or MMD matters. IF she did and gloated, she's not exactly a "good" person. If she didn't not but still gloated, she's not better either.

[sweetsunray]

Mirri may have been aware of what happens to Khals who are no longer seen as strong - she may have been speaking the truth saying "He will never ride again" without saying recovery was impossible - she may have known that Drogo might recover one day, if he had a chance, but that would never happen.  Does anyone doubt that Drogo would end up dead by somebody elses hand if Dany did try to nurse him back to health?

Example - someone telling Lommy that his injured legs meant he would never walk again - it's not saying that his legs were incapable of healing, just prophetic knowledge that he would be killed for those injured legs before tehy had a chance to heal.

 

Nice take on that.

[sweetsunray]

 

Through the whole thread I've never even discussed whether the involvement of Dany or MMD matters. IF she did and gloated, she's not exactly a "good" person. If she didn't not but still gloated, she's not better either.

 

I agree that Mirri is not a good person, for gloating over a young girl's pain. Dany was very young, and she seemed to believe in some fairytale rescue, a magic that could make everything perfectly right again, without much cost. She was in denial of what was happening, and for good reasons. The Dothraki would have cut Rhaego out of her, and killed her along, including for having Mirri take out the arrow, discinfect the wound and put a poultice on it. Drogo was not just all of her emotional life, his life assured hers. She hoped it could be magicked back as before - denial and bargaining. These are two erronous but completely natural ways of dealing with pain and fear for loss. On top of that she was exhausted, recovering from what must have been a horribly painful birthing, the loss of her child, and probably her hormones completely out of whack. And she persisted in the denial and bargaining, until MMD mentally slapped her in the face to make her wake up to reality. That's when the anger and rage came, another normal phase of the grieving process. She needed someone to blame. And she blamed MIrri and unleashed her anger on her.

 

I think it's very very understandable. Doesn't make Dany's judgement any more reliable as every other unreliable narrator. 

[Cas Stark]

 

Through the whole thread I've never even discussed whether the involvement of Dany or MMD matters. IF she did and gloated, she's not exactly a "good" person. If she didn't not but still gloated, she's not better either.

 

I'd say it's worse if she really did what she gloats over, which I doubt, other than bringing Drogo back as a vegetable, which she intended to do, I think, but she had no intention to harm Dany's baby.  It's odd though that she doesn't defend herself, and remind Dany she told her to stay out of the tent,  but instead she gloats.

[sweetsunray]

 

I'd say it's worse if she really did what she gloats over, which I doubt, other than bringing Drogo back as a vegetable, which she intended to do, I think, but she had no intention to harm Dany's baby.  It's odd though that she doesn't defend herself, and remind Dany she told her to stay out of the tent,  but instead she gloats.

 

I think Mirri has that "My god has avenged me" attitude imo. I find her gloating rather biblical (old testament biblical).

[Taenqyrhae]

Mirri was a wise woman with access to magic, we've seen that even a little drop of blood can power blood magic that can tell your fate decades in the future.  Mirri may have known she was going to die so why bother trying to defend herself?  Her cruelty to Dany may have been a bit of "tough love" before dying to help her learn the dangers of messing with blood magic.

[Cas Stark]

 

I think Mirri has that "My god has avenged me" attitude imo. I find her gloating rather biblical (old testament biblical).

 

Maybe, I've always found it strange and it leaves her culpability somewhat ambiguous.  My read was that her poultice was on the up and up, she brought Drogo back as he was on purpose, she never intended to harm Dany's baby...so why does she then turn so sarcastic and cruel to Dany, take credit for the baby's death? 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 

I'd say it's worse if she really did what she gloats over, which I doubt, other than bringing Drogo back as a vegetable, which she intended to do, I think, but she had no intention to harm Dany's baby.  It's odd though that she doesn't defend herself, and remind Dany she told her to stay out of the tent,  but instead she gloats.

 

That's kinda my whole point. She could have gotten herself out of it easily: "Khaleesi, I told you not to enter. You didn't listen to me". Dany directly accuses her of not being clear, of fool her. MMD never defends herself. Never. Instead, she pretty much tells her "you had it coming and I'm glad it happened to you".

 

I agree that MMD's perspective wouldn't allow her to see that Dany is also a victim, but we know she is. We know the whole panorama. We know they both are. Her little act was maybe her way to believe she had some control, and while it's understandable, it's not an excuse.

[LmL]

 
I am sort of there with you. However, it is a life for a life so I think Rhaego's life reanimated only one of the eggs. In the HotU Dany sees a vision of a dragon bursting from Mirri's forehead, so I think her life force reanimated one of the eggs and Drogo the third.
 
I think Drogo reanimated the black egg (Drogon). I go back and forth about which of the other two eggs Mirri reanimated. When Quaithe gives her warning about the mummer's dragon, I think it is a warning about an actual dragon. When Dany first sees Tyrion he is a mummer. Not just sort of a mummer but an actual mummer. Therefore, whichever dragon Tyrion ends up with is the dragon I think Quaithe is warning Dany about.
 
I think Mirri's animus will turn that dragon against Dany.

Oh very cool idea about the mummer's dragon! That could be right on the money :)

[LmL]

 
I think Mirri has that "My god has avenged me" attitude imo. I find her gloating rather biblical (old testament biblical).

Yes that's how I took it also.

[LmL]

Mirri was a wise woman with access to magic, we've seen that even a little drop of blood can power blood magic that can tell your fate decades in the future.  Mirri may have known she was going to die so why bother trying to defend herself?  Her cruelty to Dany may have been a bit of "tough love" before dying to help her learn the dangers of messing with blood magic.

Whatever the case, I think the lesson itself is important. "See what life is worth when all the rest is gone." This idea could apply to many characters. I think it's a major theme of the novels.

[Lady Barbrey]

There's no denying that Mirri performed a blood magic ritual. But there is no evidence that she targeted Dany's child. There were dead spirits in the tent. Once Dany was carried inside, the dead spirits claimed Rhaego for the sacrifice. It seems to me that once the spirits are summoned they act like a vortex. 
 
The Dothraki were hostile to any type of non-Dothraki healing. I get the impression they'd even call a maester a maegi. And it's little surprise Drogo's bloodriders would become violent for anyone to use magic on their Khal. Even the whole violent episode outside the tent does not fall outside what was to be expected as a reaction. It surprised Dany they started to stone her for it... but the way they were hostile from the start it isn't. Still, even without magic violence and agression has an almost "magical" ability to jump from one to the other in real life. It's not magical in real life of course, but it can spread like wildfire in the right conditions, pulling everyone in, indeed like a vortex (just have to point to the mob in KL). The scene is ambiguous enough to suggest that perhaps the spirits in the tent egged the "air" on for mob violence.
 
And it is that Mirri knew imo. She knew that the blood ritual and spirits would demand more blood. She did not know which blood, but there would be more. This was the reason that Mirri explictly ordered Dany out beforehand and telling her not to enter once the singing started for no reason. That she did this should be evidence enough that she had no intention of killing Rhaego. It defies all logic for Mirri to order her out if she intended to abort Rhaego. If she wanted to con Dany for that, she would have conned her into staying. Mirri was clear enough about it that Dany indeed tried to tell Jorah not to carry her in.
 
I don't think Rhaego was even targeted by the spirits, not until she fell and the fall and anxiety induced labour. On top of that the Dothraki healers refused to help her. Those mud smearing Dothraki healers refused to help her, because they called her cursed. I doubt that was caused by Mirri or the dead spirits in the tent.
 
From the get go, the whole plot shows free will after free will by others that led to Dany ending up in the tent.
 

• Drogo drinking milk of the poppy which would have tarried the healing process (and there's for Drogo not being that "macho" about pain after all). This is Drogo's decision.
• Then the poultice did what Mirri had told him beforehand - it would itch and burn. He ripped it off and had bacteria filled mud packed on it, because it feels more soothing. This is Drogo's decision and free will, and it the reason why developed gangrene (near the heart, no less)
• Dany asks Mirri whether she doesn't know some magical way to save his life, and despite the contrary advice against it, she orders Mirri to do it. This is Dany's decision.
• Mirri warns her not to enter the tent, not for any reason. It's Jorah who decides to carry her in. This is Jorah's decision.
• The bloodriders behave violent to Dany, shove her. These are the bloodriders' decisions. Qotho said he would kill her.
• The Dothraki start to pelt Dany with stones. These are the Dothrakis' decisions.
• Dany's labor begins and the birthing women refuse to help her.  They say she's cursed. These are the Dothraki healers' decisions.
• Irri and Doreah urge Jorah to carry her to the maegi. And Jorah carries her in.

 
Nowhere is it ever Mirri's decision. Meanwhile

• Mirri performs all the necessary medical steps: she removes the arrow, disinfects the wound with boiling alcohol, she puts a pale green paste on the wound, before covering it with his flap of skin. Both the color and the related healing symptoms suggest that what she smeared on him was a disinfectant or anti-inflamatory... If any germ got into the wound anyhow, the paste would have killed it. Yes, and on an open wound it would cause a burning sensation; heck even non-broken skin. Any women out there who have ever applied a facial mask? Some of those feel hot, burning and itchy... it's because of disinfecting stuff in the product. She later says she made a paste of "firepod" and "sting-me-not". The latter sounds something like nettles, which would have anti-inflamatory effects. The firepod sounds like it might have the same purpose. Usually wounds contain both aerobe as well as anaerobe germs. Both need to be tackled, not just the one time, but as long as the wound is open.
• Mirri gives all the necessary medical advice to help it heal fast, explains that there will be a burning sensation and itching (actually itching is a common sign of skin healing anyway)
• Mirri states the most obvious - with the gangrene on his chest and it already having affected his general vitality and consciousness implies it's in his blood system for all his body. Drogo is dying.
• She confirms she knows a blood magic ritual that may heal his gangrene, but she warns her that it's hard, dark, and death would be cleaner. She also mentions she paid dear for the lesson in Ashai. And she mentions only death can pay for life.
• She tellls Dany to go outside, who initially refuses to go. Mirri says she must. She informs that powers dark and old will be conjured up, that the dead will dance inside, and no one living must look at them.

The accusations against Mirri

• That she cursed Drogo with some malicioius spell in her temple. And yet she used no magic, but common medical tools. We know that spells don't work that easily. Spells come with a price. Mirri performed no physical sacrifice for any spell to work. On top of that, there was no comet yet and dragons weren't yet born. Magic was still weak. And gods aren't real either. It's common in most healing of religious cultures to utter prayers while applying medical procedures. Even Christians did this not so long ago. It's superstition. Even if Mirri said stuff like "let it not work at all," then her words have no more power than Cat telling Jon it should have been him.
• That possibly she poisoned the poultice as some long con, so that Drogo would rip it off, and use Dothraki healer mud. Well the easiest way to con Drogo, without having a bloodrider tell you that her fate is tied to Drogo's fate, is to not offer any medical assistance at all. Or to apply some "soothing mud" full of germs, and do exactly the same thing that those Dothraki healers do. It wasn't poison that caused gangrene. He was blood poisoned by his own people. If you wish to poison someone, whether food or medicine, you won't use something that tastes awful or itches and burns.
• That she performed the magic with the specific intent to turn Drogo into a vegetable. Hello, he was dying. Silliest con ever - someone is hours away from dying, but the best revenge is to heal his body? And I think those arguments made about Drogo not being in an outright vegetative state, but possibly still physically traumatized and in recovery, and it was too early to make any such conclusion actually might be right. His body was basically completely shell shocked from the blood poisoning that ran throughout his body and brain.
• That she performed the magic with the specific intent to abort Rhaego. But all those involved leading up to Dany being carried into the tent make such a conclusion beyond begging the belief. Since when does Mirri have magical control over Drogo's bloodriders, over Dothraki hurling stones at Dany, over birthing women's opinions, over Irri, Doreah and Jorah? Furthermore, it would have been so easy for her to con Dany into staying if Mirri intended Dany to lose her child. Heck, she could have just do no ritual at all, be at her side for the birthing and botch it up. There is no evidence that Mirri wanted to kill Rhaego, not even a confesstion.
• It's argued that she confessed. She did nothing of the sort. What she said was that Dany knew. What she said was that Mirri was glad Rhaego would not grow up to be the Koeblai Khan of Essos and Westeros. What she said what that her own life was no life at all. None of it is a confession. Was it harsh? Was it venomous? Was it twisting the emotional dagger into Dany's emotions wounds? Yup, totally. Is it a confession? Nope.

If Mirri is guilty of what she's accused of, I find it contain the worst series of plot holes. But only because Dany cannot look back or she's lost, because what she asked for came with too high a price and not the result she wanted, and believes Mirri did it all on purpose, and still believes it (If I look back I'm lost), it must be so. Because dragons were born out of killing the woman she ordered to do what she wanted, somehow Dany must be right? She could have put someone else on the pyre and the dragons would have been born just as well. 

Totally agree. Excellent analysis.

[Lady Barbrey]

You know, between you and butterbumps, I've had a thought...
 
Dead for years.  The eggs were said to be petrified.  So they had been dead for years.  Rhaego's life force switched with theirs. That's they only way a baby who's only been cooking (so to speak) for 8-9 months could have been dead for "years."  That also means that Rhaego is the one who woke dragons from stone--the prince that was promised, and he was of Aerys and Rhaella's line.  If the dragons really are Lightbringer, as has been suggested, then that makes Rhaego also Azor Ahai Reborn, except not reborn.  The prophecy of the Stallion who Mounts the World is about uniting the world. What the heck else is a hero who just saved the entire planet going to do but be hailed by all as their rightful leader?
 
Rhaego was TDtwP, AAR, and TSwMtW.  But instead of his life being what saves and unites everyone, it's his death.  And that works really well because...say it with me...only death can pay for life.
 
And that could be exactly why GRRM has said we should pay a lot less attention to the prophecies (trying to pin them down to this or that character) and more to Old Nan's stories.  It also fits perfectly with there not being one character who fights to save the day and rallies everybody.  The savior of humanity in this story was a baby who ended up never being born.  If this turns out to be the case then GRRM is an even bigger genius than I already thought he was.
 
It would also mean that a bit of Rhaego is in each of the dragons.  Drogon and Rhaegal got the fierceness, Viserion the sweetness, Drogon the physical dominance, Rhaegal the cunning and jealousy, Viserion the affection and gentleness (well as much as any dragon could be gentle).  Dany is the mother of dragons because the dragons are her son split in three.  Or maybe I just need more sleep.

Good analysis. I have always thought it was Rhaego split in three in the dragons. I thought everyone did! So they were three aspects of the Stallion Who Mounts the World. The three 'heads of the dragon' not Dany but Rhaego. But I've seen Dany as the PtwP not the dragons - I saw them more as the Lightbringers. She brings them into the world by killing her son the 'blood of her blood' Nissa Nissa, same-same. It wouldnt work this tine around to kill a husband or wife because they wouldnt be Targs. Her own son was needed.

[Lady Barbrey]

 
I am sort of there with you. However, it is a life for a life so I think Rhaego's life reanimated only one of the eggs. In the HotU Dany sees a vision of a dragon bursting from Mirri's forehead, so I think her life force reanimated one of the eggs and Drogo the third.
 
I think Drogo reanimated the black egg (Drogon). I go back and forth about which of the other two eggs Mirri reanimated. When Quaithe gives her warning about the mummer's dragon, I think it is a warning about an actual dragon. When Dany first sees Tyrion he is a mummer. Not just sort of a mummer but an actual mummer. Therefore, whichever dragon Tyrion ends up with is the dragon I think Quaithe is warning Dany about.
 
I think Mirri's animus will turn that dragon against Dany.

Isn't Tyrion mentioned as another threat though? A white lion?

Wharever thw case, I love the way you've twisted the mummer's dragon on its head. Never ever occurred to me.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Isn't Tyrion mentioned as another threat though? A white lion?

Wharever thw case, I love the way you've twisted the mummer's dragon on its head. Never ever occurred to me.

Tyrion is the lion traveling with the griffin.  Good catch there, Lady Barbrey!

 

The mummer's dragon can't be Tyrion because nobody is listed twice in that sequence.

 

Another point against Tyrion being the mummer's dragon of Quaithe's warning is that all of Quaithe's info is real-time based on what is happening at the moment she's speaking.  All of the people she mentioned were either traveling toward Dany or already around her (perfumed seneschal).  

 

Quaithe does not prophesy.  She's just a vague intelligence service.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

WOW. Can I marry your theory?

 

btw, by blood, Rhaego had some of Drogo's, Viserys's and Rhaegar's. So, technically, he could have passed things from them to the dragons.

 

There are been theories about the Dosh Khaleen having Rhaego (who never actually died). I would love for this to happen and it's my one fav. crackpot I'm waiting to happen (but it won't), but I think it's likely that they will explain Dany that Rhaego was indeed THE ONE needed.

Well the theory is single so I guess that's possible.  I'll let the two of you decide. I don't tell my theories how to live their lives. :D