Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[Raving Stark the Mad]

[quote name="ShadowCat Rivers" post="7323050" timestamp="1441389183
 
ETA, for clarification: she does not think it's Rhaego (IMO) when she orders the final "do it", but it's pretty obvious it's some unspecified human.[/quote]

Then why does she not say "i thought it would be someone else" instead of saying " i thought it would be a horse". If she had already come to terms with human sacrifice, why even mention the horse?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 
Explain to me how someone would make the mental jump from "is it me"? to "OK, since it's not me then it *must* be some horse".
 
It's perfectly clear, that it must be a human life: horses will not do because only death may pay for life. Dany immediately gets that it must be someone (and correctly assumes that it's someone of importance). Her final "do it" is on those terms.

It is not clear at all. At no time does MMD say "it is going to take a human life". She instead relies on Dany to come to her own conclusions. That is not clear at all.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Neither Dany asked for more nor MMD was as clear as she should have been. And considering it was MMD the one doing the whole procedure, she was meant to tell Dany about all of it.

If she was aware of the dangers, then she should have said it: "Khaleesi, any life would now be taken: your knight, your handmaids, or even that of your unborn child". She said not.

If she was sure, specifically, that Rhaego would die, then she should have said "That life you'll give is that of your unborn child". She said not.

Remember Dany believed MMD to be on her side. ANd MMD probably knew this. She knew Dany trusted her, hence, why she wasn't clear: she was sure Dany assumed she wouldn't hurt her or her child. Dany was never informed of the whole risks. Maybe, she should have asked, but, it's not a patient duty to ask the doctor about every possibility that can go wrong. It's the doctor's duty, as he's the one KNOWING MORE, to inform the patient of every single risk they are taking.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

 

Then why does she not say "i thought it would be someone else" instead of saying " i thought it would be a horse". If she had already come to terms with human sacrifice, why even mention the horse?

 

Because, I believe, she never exactly comes to terms with the price. Her behaviour at the moment of the agreement is practically "I don't want to know".

 

She wants to do this, but she does not want to pay the price; if she gets to put a face and assign a personality to "the price", she won't be able to do it. She can deal with the abstract notion of the sacrifice, but she can not deal with the specific consequences. It's the same thing that happened to her when she saw what exactly the abstract "price for the Iron Throne" entailed for the real people of the Lhazareen village. That's the reason she does not ask the question, because if she does she will get an answer that she won't like and she won't be able to say this "do it", and (subconsciously, I believe) she knows it.

 

Dany is not a monster. She has a conscience and a morality that she aspires to live by. But the things she wants do not always come in harmony with those ideals. The human heart in conflict... People use various ways to deal with such situations - here Dany uses the "Sansa effect": since she does not like what reality has to give her, she will construct in her mind an alternative that she can like better; she convinces herself that the price was the horse all along (because the horse was used, so it's convenient) so that she can live in peace with her decision.

(The drawback in all this, is that reality is fucking stubborn and will bite the ass of anyone who choses to ingnore it, every time.)

[Ser Creighton]

 

 

Three cheers for your paraphrasing awesomeness here.  :bowdown:

 

 

I take ""Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass."a to mean that he could wake some amount of fire from dragonglass. If you are waking any amount of fire from dragonglass, then the candle is in fact burning, is it not? I am not saying for sure that this means Quaithe was implanting Dany's AGOT dreams, but it is possible. 

It's suggested in this passage, which comes immediately after her "wake the dragon dream," which she has while inside the tent of dancing shadows, presumably during the time dead Rhaego is being delivered. 

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own. 

 

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars. (AGOT, Daenerys)

 

The whispering stars is a trademark Quaithe communication technique - it's always attached to her in what we do know for a fact to be Quaithe glass candle communications (I analyzed all of the starry Quaithe communications in the "Valyria, Church of Starry Wisdom" essay in my signature). Now let's take a look at what information Dany received in that wake the dragon dream, which was of course all about waking a dragon. 

 

Wings shadowed her fever dreams.

 

“You don’t want to wake the dragon, do you?”

 

[...]

 

“… don’t want to wake the dragon, do you?”

 

Ser Jorah’s face was drawn and sorrowful. “Rhaegar was the last dragon,” he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. “The last dragon,” he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

 

“… don’t want to wake the dragon, do you?”

 

This seems like a direct clue, showing her the the eggs being heated, glowing like coals. I think that's a clue that they need fire to hatch.

 

“… don’t want to wake the dragon …”

 

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

 

“… want to wake the dragon …”

 

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings.

 

And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

 

“… wake the dragon …”

 

What I am seeing here is a suggestion that Rhaego's death, consumed by fire, leads to the event in the next scene: Dany becoming a dragon. She smells burning blood - again suggesting fire is needed to wake a dragon. Fire, and blood - the recipe is right here in her dream. Melting stone makes an appearance as well. The idea that Dany should burn herself to wake the dragon is also implied. 

 

And then, the whispering stars. And what's the first thing Dany wants? The eggs. 

 

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

 

She woke to the taste of ashes.

 

“No,” she moaned, “no, please.”

 

“Khaleesi?” Jhiqui hovered over her, a frightened doe.

 

The tent was drenched in shadow, still and close. Flakes of ash drifted upward from a brazier, and Dany followed them with her eyes through the smoke hole above. Flying, she thought. I had wings, I was flying. But it was only a dream. “Help me,” she whispered, struggling to rise. “Bring me …” Her voice was raw as a wound, and she could not think what she wanted. Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps. “I want …”

 

“Yes, Khaleesi.” Quick as that Jhiqui was gone, bolting from the tent, shouting. Dany needed … something … someone … what? It was important, she knew. It was the only thing in the world that mattered. She rolled onto her side and got an elbow under her, fighting the blanket tangled about her legs. It was so hard to move. The world swam dizzily. I have to …

 

They found her on the carpet, crawling toward her dragon eggs. Ser Jorah Mormont lifted her in his arms and carried her back to her sleeping silks, while she struggled feebly against him. Over his shoulder she saw her three handmaids, Jhogo with his little wisp of mustache, and the flat broad face of Mirri Maz Duur. “I must,” she tried to tell them, “I have to …”

 

“… sleep, Princess,” Ser Jorah said.

 

“No,” Dany said. “Please. Please.”

 

She's thinking of the eggs before her son or Drogo - it seems this dream has left a strong impression on her about the eggs. 

 

After a time— a night, a day, a year, she could not say— she woke again. The tent was dark, its silken walls flapping like wings when the wind gusted outside. This time Dany did not attempt to rise. “Irri,” she called, “Jhiqui. Doreah.” They were there at once. “My throat is dry,” she said, “so dry,” and they brought her water.

[...]

Dany drank, and lay back, listening to the soft sound of her own breathing. She could feel the heaviness in her limbs, as sleep crept in to fill her up once more. “Bring me …” she murmured, her voice slurred and drowsy. “Bring … I want to hold …”

 

“Yes?” the maegi asked. “What is it you wish, Khaleesi?”

 

“Bring me … egg … dragon’s egg … please …” Her lashes turned to lead, and she was too weary to hold them up.

 

When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon’s egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze, and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a fine sheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. It did not frighten her. All her fear was gone, burned away.

 

[...]

 

Jhiqui would have run as well, but Dany caught her by the wrist and held her captive. “What is it? I must know. Drogo … and my child.” Why had she not remembered the child until now? “My son … Rhaego … where is he? I want him.” Her handmaid lowered her eyes. “The boy … he did not live, Khaleesi.” Her voice was a frightened whisper.

 

Dany released her wrist. My son is dead, she thought as Jhiqui left the tent. She had known somehow. She had known since she woke the first time to Jhiqui’s tears. No, she had known before she woke. Her dream came back to her, sudden and vivid, and she remembered the tall man with the copper skin and long silver-gold braid, bursting into flame. She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash.

 

She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet … she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been. Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing over the other dragon’s eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange.

 

“Ser Jorah, come here,” she said. She took his hand and placed it on the black egg with the scarlet swirls. “What do you feel?”

 

“Shell, hard as rock.” The knight was wary. “Scales.”

 

“Heat?”

 

“No. Cold stone.” He took his hand away. “Princess, are you well? Should you be up, weak as you are?”

 

“Weak? I am strong, Jorah.” To please him, she reclined on a pile of cushions. “Tell me how my child died.”

 

I do definitely think there was some Targaryen instinct involved as well, don't take me wrong. That is suggested strongly here:

 

“No. He cannot have my son.” She would not weep, she decided. She would not shiver with fear. The Usurper has woken the dragon now, she told herself … and her eyes went to the dragon’s eggs resting in their nest of dark velvet. The shifting lamplight limned their stony scales, and shimmering motes of jade and scarlet and gold swam in the air around them, like courtiers around a king.

 

Was it madness that seized her then, born of fear? Or some strange wisdom buried in her blood? Dany could not have said. She heard her own voice saying, “Ser Jorah, light the brazier.”

 

Then she tries to hatch the eggs in the brazier. This quote suggests the eggs directly, as well as bloodlines:

 

They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

 

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him, “the true dragon. I know it. I know it.” And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

 

So yes, definitely instinct, tied to her bloodline.  But she has also learned a lot in her dreams, as I hope I have shown. 

 

Here oneof the earlier dreams and visions which seem to be giving Dany clues:

 

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. “Khaleesi,” Jhiqui said, “what is wrong? Are you sick?”

 

“I was,” she answered, standing over the dragon’s eggs that Illyrio had given her when she wed. She touched one, the largest of the three, running her hand lightly over the shell. Black-and-scarlet, she thought, like the dragon in my dream. The stone felt strangely warm beneath her fingers … or was she still dreaming? She pulled her hand back nervously.

 

 

Pretty strong associations here - she dreams of being burned, which triggers a positive transformation. Then, she connects the dragon in her dream to the egg, because the colors match, then thinks the stone feels warm.. implying heat and burning. An affinity for fire. 

 

It's important to note that Dany draws strength from being burned - this creates an association in her mind between fire and positive transformation, and waking the dragon specifically.

 

I also think these dreams could be coming from her blood / bloodline - it could be something of a seer's gift which some Targs seem to have. It doesn't have to be Quaithe - but that one with the whispering stars raises the question, and as we saw, some small amount of fire could be woken from dragonglass before the dragons were born, which could indicate the potential to use the candles to enter dreams. 

 

 

Don't misinterpret what I am saying, it's not about Quaithe, I don't discount her from anything, same for Bloodraven. Powerful beings, who knows what they are really up to. I don't discount outside influences, we are all subject to them, you, me, the characters in the book, those influences help shape our lives. Dany's influences include Mirri, the Dothraki, her brother, her life, her history, her family, the story she has been told, the eggs, her own beliefs, her instincts, her nature, etc... It's all part of it. I do point out that her own instinct and choices, played a huge part as they do with all the characters. They have influences but their own choices also shape them and Martin keeps a hard line on the characters choices. It's very important to him, it's a major theme in his series. The human heart at conflict with itself is very important to him, it's the core of his writing.

 

What we were talking about is glass candles, you assume Quaithe needs the candles and that may not be the case. Just like it is not the case with Bloodraven. You assume that obsidian and the Glass Candles are the same thing. Steel and Valyrian steel are both made from iron, but they are not the same thing. While a smith might be able for forge a sword it does not mean they can make valyrian steel, doesn't matter if they are both iron and it does not matter if dragonglass and the glass candles are made from the same substance. The glass candles are not about pulling fire from glass. The children could do it, magic was not gone from the world it was subdued heavily. But around the time Dany wakes the dragons as Quaithe indicates, the magic is rising. As the dragons grow it seems to be getting stronger, at least on the fire side of things.

 

The same may be happening with Ice we don't have as much insight into that, but the Others Ice Zombie army is getting bigger.

 

The assumption that Quaithe needs the candles to influence someone or that the candles were burning going back to when Dany was 13 is errounious, it is not a fact. She may be using them now, that does not mean the were working before, or that she needed them to enter a dream. Note if she was entering Dany's dreams as far back as early thrones it is a far more subdued version of what she is doing after we here that the Glass candles are lit, after she touches Dany.

 

You don't need the glass candles to be prophetic or to enter a persons dream or influence them. If she really wanted to influence Dany she would not being showing herself to Dany in said dreams. You get a better effect influencing the subconscious, than directly appearing and being obscure and creating doubt. It is also a mistake to think Dany herself is not prophetic given the history of the Targaryens. The author has gone out of the way to point that out about this family. Bloodraven may be the reason the Starks have wolves but he did not make them wargs.

 

I would suggest this and I have many times before, the eggs in fact came from Quaithe, that is a personal belief of mine, I can't prove it, it's not a fact, but they can be taken as an early signs of Quaithes influence if a reader wishes too. That does not mean the candles were burning but like many, the red priests, Bloodraven, I think there is a good chance Jon is, Dany, Seastar, that she is prophetic. And that is where her early influence may start, if she was in fact influencing her.

 

The candles are not reported burning in Qarth till late in clash, and it's a new report. That is a fact, later in Crows and then in Dance. It does not say Quaithe had them, they belong to Urrathon the night walker. Urrathon is not actually connected to Quaithe, the street or Warlocks. Urrathon is actually connected to Euron and the Warlocks. Urrathon is an Iron Born name, it belonged to the ancient king Urrathon the Goodbrother aka the Badbrother. Urrathon the Badbrother is connected to Euron by his blood, his home and his very blatant sigil.

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Urrathon_IV_Goodbrother

 

This sigil looks a lot like Dragon binder.

 

See I  am not so sure Quaithe needs the candles, she warns Dany about the candles. Why? Why would she warn her about candles she is supposedly using to influence her subconscious? How are they a threat to her? Because maybe someone else is using them. Now Euron seems very interested in Oldtown, and Dany and the dragons and he does have Warlocks. So what is in Oldtown? If Martin goes out of his way to connect Euron to Urrathon, which he did, maybe the author is suggesting that Euron is trying to get the glass candles. Could Quaithe have the candles from Qarth, maybe, she would probably want to secure them if they are a danger to Dany. But that does not mean she had them before, or was using them before. Maybe when they started burning she may have been like I better go get those and is now using them. But she does not have the ones in Oldtown, and the candles seem to have limits. Note the one in old town seemed to be able to see things near at hand, but it never indicated that Marwyn could see Dany that I recall, nor does he feel the need to take the candle. Marwyn studied with Warlocks and Shadowbinders, but his candle is not reported burning till Crows. Marwyn was first mentioned in thrones, was he influencing Dany? He has a candle. Although Leo only reports recently that he believes in the dragons, and that Marwyn had managed to light a candle, this is new information for everyone.

 

Now follow the connections Martin once again makes. Marwyn who has lit a candle is also a writer, he wrote a book. Marwyn's book of lost books about his travels in the east. Marwyn is of course associated with the glass candle. Who do we see reading this book? Rodrik Harlaw, later Martin makes sure to show us Harlaw speaking to a man named Goodbrother. Later Asha recalls that Harlaw told her to read a book about the only time a Kings moot choosing had been overturned. Who was that King? Urrathon the Goodbrother. You can also look at the actions of a FM who killed Euron's brother, and is now in Oldtown, right near a glass candle in fact.

 

So as you see, the real connection and importance being placed on the candles seems to be on the dangers of Euron, not Quaithe. Quaithe is giving a warning, and while she may be using them now, there is no indication they have been lit before Dany woke the dragons, nor is it indicated that Quaithe a Shadowbinder needs them to influence someone, or that she did in fact influence Dany in her dreams, she may have. It's just not a fact.

 

You don't need to quote heavily about Dany with me, you can paraphrase, I know what she has said. Also just because the candles can be used to communicate does not mean, they can show up and subliminally influence a dream or create one. Dany is awake and up in two of the possible glass candle exchanges. Or is it three, it may be three, the Balcony where Missy finds her and the Dothraki sea, and the ship. She actually wakes people up, during two of them. She is actually woken from a dream to communicate with Quaithe. Even if you could enter there dreams it does not mean you can create there dreams. That has never been stated, Bloodraven created dreams, Bran also flying the stars don't forget that, very similar to Dany's dreams, no glass candle.

 

So please try to ease up on the this is a fact or that is a fact, it's a belief you have and you feel strongly about. And that is fine, I am just saying go easy with the facts, asking really "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

 

Maybe you feel you have enough evidence, but that is not always enough. The fact is we just don't know.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It is not clear at all. At no time does MMD say "it is going to take a human life". She instead relies on Dany to come to her own conclusions. That is not clear at all.

 

No, I am sorry, it is not that easy. She can not plead stupidity. She has already shown good perception and intellectual capabilities in general. She had no problem to get that expensive gifts do not come for free, as early as when she was still with Viserys at Illyrio's mansion.

 

I do not buy that she ever sincerely believed that her husband's life and her whole future, really, would come at as cheap a price as the life of a horse, especially when she was warned that blood magic comes at a very high cost.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

You know, when the topic of donating organs is discussed, indirectly, in a way, we are secretly hoping for someone dying (someone who has been kind enough on being ok with giving their organs). That doesn't make us bad people, it's human nature. It's what Ned himself wonders about Cat: when it's time to make a choice between those we love and someone else, what would one do?

Dany's husband was dying. She was presented with a choice. He can live, but someone must die. Can we blame her for being ok. with this? If someone I've never known in my life, someone I don't care about, is meant to die for my husband to live, what would I choose? As bad as it sounds, between my husband and someone else's husband, I choose mine.

Ever seen Twilight Zone's "The Box"? It presents the same question: you'll get something, but for that to happen, someone you've never known or meet will die. The whole "someone you never knew" gives you a bit of a break from guilt. "Hey, this person doesn't have a face, why should I care?". It's all ok. until you're told now this question will be asked to someone YOU don't know.

[Mithras]

No. She only felt heat after the ritual, when she woke up from her fever dreams.

 

She touched one, the largest of the three, running her hand lightly over the shelf. Black-and-scarlet, she thought, like the dragon in my dream. The stone felt strangely warm beneath her fingers… or was she still dreaming? She pulled her hand back nervously.

 

As she let the door flap close behind her, Dany saw a finger of dusty red light reach out to touch her dragon’s eggs across the tent. For an instant a thousand droplets of scarlet flame swam before her eyes. She blinked, and they were gone.

Stone, she told herself. They are only stone, even Illyrio said so, the dragons are all dead. She put her palm against the black egg, fingers spread gently across the curve of the shell. The stone was warm. Almost hot. “The sun,” Dany whispered. “The sun warmed them as they rode.”

 

“Please, bring me one of the dragon’s eggs.”

Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her… as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him, “the true dragon. I know it. I know it.” And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

 

These were all before the ritual.

[Tucu]

You know, when the topic of donating organs is discussed, indirectly, in a way, we are secretly hoping for someone dying (someone who has been kind enough on being ok with giving their organs). That doesn't make us bad people, it's human nature. It's what Ned himself wonders about Cat: when it's time to make a choice between those we love and someone else, what would one do?

Dany's husband was dying. She was presented with a choice. He can live, but someone must die. Can we blame her for being ok. with this? If someone I've never known in my life, someone I don't care about, is meant to die for my husband to live, what would I choose? As bad as it sounds, between my husband and someone else's husband, I choose mine.

Ever seen Twilight Zone's "The Box"? It presents the same question: you'll get something, but for that to happen, someone you've never known or meet will die. The whole "someone you never knew" gives you a bit of a break from guilt. "Hey, this person doesn't have a face, why should I care?". It's all ok. until you're told now this question will be asked to someone YOU don't know.

Hmm, Dany's case is closer to accelerating the arrival of the organ by getting into your SUV and crashing into a group of cyclists.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

You know, when the topic of donating organs is discussed, indirectly, in a way, we are secretly hoping for someone dying (someone who has been kind enough on being ok with giving their organs). That doesn't make us bad people, it's human nature. It's what Ned himself wonders about Cat: when it's time to make a choice between those we love and someone else, what would one do?

Dany's husband was dying. She was presented with a choice. He can live, but someone must die. Can we blame her for being ok. with this? If someone I've never known in my life, someone I don't care about, is meant to die for my husband to live, what would I choose? As bad as it sounds, between my husband and someone else's husband, I choose mine.

Ever seen Twilight Zone's "The Box"? It presents the same question: you'll get something, but for that to happen, someone you've never known or meet will die. The whole "someone you never knew" gives you a bit of a break from guilt. "Hey, this person doesn't have a face, why should I care?". It's all ok. until you're told now this question will be asked to someone YOU don't know.

 

That's not the case though.

That's the case of killing someone specifically to get their organs. It is not about someone who would die anyway (without your, erm, "help") and just happen to benefit you with their death. And the only reason you don't know them is, because you asigned someone else to do the job for you and spare you of the dirty details.

What you present is a false analogy. A very false one indeed.

 

It starts to feel like discussions about Jaime, Bran, his own kids, etc.

[Jasta11]

I think Mirri seized an opportunity.

 

She gave the poultice to Drogo, and nothing indicates it was in bad faith. He forcibly removed it, ignored her advice to not drink milk of the poppy, and put mud on it instead. By doing so he sealed his death sentence, especially since mud around a Dothraki horde is probably filled with horseshit, one of the very last things you want in a wound.

 

Dany then summoned her and Mirri explicitely told her that the ritual would have a great cost and that under no circumstances should anyone enter the tent. During the ritual, Dany goes into labor as she is being attacked, and Jorah carries her in the tent against her wishes. I think at this point, Mirri either knew that the babe was doomed (due to the fallout of the ritual) or used this opportunity to kill Rheago. It's impossible to know since we're not in her head.

 

Whatever the case, afterwards she gloats to Dany because she's already dead at this point. I think she always wanted Drogo and Rhaego dead (the former for obvious reasons, the latter because of the prophecy), but did not actually move to do it until Jorah carried Dany in the tent and gave her a golden opportunity to kill two Khals with one stone before she died. Which was pretty much inevitable, IMO; had Dany not miscarried, I'm pretty sure MMD wouldn't have survived the discovery of Drogo's newfound life anyway. 

 

I don't think MMD is a hero by any means, but she surely isn't a full on villain. Her motives (if she is behind Rhaego's death which is not certain by any means) are understandable, if certainly not laudable.

 

She also didn't owe Dany shit IMO. MMD was her slave. Dany stopped her from being raped a few more times on top of what she already suffered, big freaking deal, she still took her as a slave.

[Balerion the kitten]

[font='segoe ui', sans-serif]She touched one, the largest of the three, running her hand lightly over the shelf. Black-and-scarlet, she thought, like the dragon in my dream. The stone felt strangely warm beneath her fingers… or was she still dreaming? She pulled her hand back nervously.[/font]
 
[font='segoe ui', sans-serif]As she let the door flap close behind her, Dany saw a finger of dusty red light reach out to touch her dragon’s eggs across the tent. For an instant a thousand droplets of scarlet flame swam before her eyes. She blinked, and they were gone.[/font]
[font='segoe ui', sans-serif]Stone[/font][font='segoe ui', sans-serif], she told herself. They are only stone, even Illyrio said so, the dragons are all dead. She put her palm against the black egg, fingers spread gently across the curve of the shell. The stone was warm. Almost hot.[/font] [font='segoe ui', sans-serif]“The sun,”[/font][font='segoe ui', sans-serif] Dany whispered. “The sun warmed them as they rode.”[/font]
 
[font='segoe ui', sans-serif]“Please, bring me one of the dragon’s eggs.”[/font]
[font='segoe ui', sans-serif]Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.[/font]
[font='segoe ui', sans-serif]She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her… as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. “You are the dragon,” Dany whispered to him, “the true dragon. I know it. I know it.” And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.[/font]
[font='segoe ui', sans-serif]These were all before the ritual.[/font]

Your right. My mistake.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Hmm, Dany's case is closer to accelerating the arrival of the organ by getting into your SUV and crashing into a group of cyclists.

 
 

That's not the case though.
That's the case of killing someone specifically to get their organs. It is not about someone who would die anyway (without your, erm, "help") and just happen to benefit you with their death.
What you present is a false analogy. A very false one indeed.
 
It starts to feel like discussions about Jaime, Bran, his own kids, etc.

What's wrong with that? That is worth discussed because it's the main theme of ASOIAF: teh heart at conflict.

And not. It's not a failed analogy.

Doctor: Your husband will die.
Wife: The Organ bank can help
Doctor: It doesn't have what we need. I'll have to get it from somewhere else and it will be difficult.
Wife: Do whatever we need.

Unless the Doctor was clear on telling the wife he was going to go and stab someone, the wife had any right on believing he would simply go and ask to some other bank, even paying a bribe in order to get what they need, which is wrong but not as much as purposely killing someone. That doesn't excuse the wife from looking aside when she should have paid attention, but the one in the difficult situation was her, not the doctor. The doctor or anyone in charge is the one who should know better, as they are meant to be objective. MMD was NEVER objective: she DID want both Drogo and Rhaego dead and Dany to be hurt.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

No, I am sorry, it is not that easy. She can not plead stupidity. 

Perhaps not.  But she can certainly plead desperation and lack of CLEAR understanding.  You are relying on a supposition by Dany.  Your argument is that Dany "supposed" or "figured out" that it would take a human life.  Your are arguing that she was "smart enough" to figure it out.  None of that would stand up today, and for good reason.  My entire argument is that it was not made CLEAR, and probably with reason, if MMD planned to screw over Dany.  

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Perhaps not.  But she can certainly plead desperation and lack of CLEAR understanding.  You are relying on a supposition by Dany.  Your argument is that Dany "supposed" or "figured out" that it would take a human life.  Your are arguing that she was "smart enough" to figure it out.  None of that would stand up today, and for good reason.  My entire argument is that it was not made CLEAR, and probably with reason, if MMD planned to screw over Dany.  

 

Desperation is the reason why I do cut her some. The rest does not convince me at all, but at this point we will have to agree to disagree. I got tired and I don't think I can express my view any better.

 

(And no, I am arguing she must be fucking stupid if she ever trully and sincerelly thinks it's the horse, which, she isn't. And that Mirri never tricked her into believing so.)

[Tucu]

Perhaps not.  But she can certainly plead desperation and lack of CLEAR understanding.  You are relying on a supposition by Dany.  Your argument is that Dany "supposed" or "figured out" that it would take a human life.  Your are arguing that she was "smart enough" to figure it out.  None of that would stand up today, and for good reason.  My entire argument is that it was not made CLEAR, and probably with reason, if MMD planned to screw over Dany.  

Her first assumption was that the price of the blood magic was her own life; after Mirri tells "Not your death" she immediately accepts whatever price Mirri is asking. By then the idea that the cost was human life has already occurred to Dany.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Her first assumption was that the price of the blood magic was her own life; after Mirri tells "Not your death" she immediately accepts whatever price Mirri is asking. By then the idea that the cost was human life has already occurred to Dany.

It occured to her, but was never expressed clearly to her? Is that moral or ethical? Why not? What if she took the "no" to mean that "no it will not take a life", not just merely her's?

I am relying on what Dany expresses her belief was. Not supposition. The counter is that Dany was lying to herself but there is no clear evidence of this.

[Tucu]

It occured to her, but was never expressed clearly to her? Is that moral or ethical? Why not? What if she took the "no" to mean that "no it will not take a life", not just merely her's?

I am relying on what Dany expresses her belief was. Not supposition. The counter is that Dany was lying to herself but there is no clear evidence of this.

Because this was said just before that:

"It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life."

"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.

 

Then she decided to accept the price without asking for more information, either because she understood the price or because she didn't want to know the exact price.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

What's wrong with that? That is worth discussed because it's the main theme of ASOIAF: teh heart at conflict.

 

What's wrong about a biased, extremely one sided and practically solipsistic view that aims at morally absolving Jaime? That first it gets me vexed and then, very soon, bored and tired. (And this is coming from a Jaime fangirl, mind you.)

[RoamingRonin]

She also didn't owe Dany shit IMO. MMD was her slave. Dany stopped her from being raped a few more times on top of what she already suffered, big freaking deal, she still took her as a slave.

Just because she was raped a few times doesn't mean it's not a big deal that Dany saved her from even more violence.

It is also a big deal because Dany changed how the Dothraki treat their female slaves. She challenged Khal Drogo and his men and she won. To all those claiming the Dothraki are nothing but mindless rape-happy killers, this proves they can be changed.