Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr

[Taenqyrhae]

Of course, there were no human characters, so I guess it wasn't exactly human life she was showing a lack of empathy towards when she wanted to sacrifice Drogo's slaves.  Jorah is a schnauzer in her version.

[Mithras]

If a doctor today were as unclear about the risks or repercussions of a treatment or proceedue as MMD was with Dany, they would be in jail, and for good reason.

Half truths and withholding critical information are no better than outright lies. If immoral intent is established, then the purpose behind withholding the information becomes clear. It becomes an insideous abuse of trust and clear betrayal.

 

Then Tyrion was a traitor and scum for saying those words to Jaime, the man who saved him from execution and perhaps the only person who loved him.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

i can`t quote the books right now, but:

 

wasn`t Rhaego supposed to be full of worms, as if he was dead all along, while at the same time dany felt him kicking strongly

 

this is i think the best indication that Rhaego was sacrificed. both elements don`t match up

 

if he was a targaryen monstrosity all along, or not, is irrelevant.

 

Sacrificing rhaego (kings blood) was to cure Drogos body (only death can pay for life).. killing the horse was to swap "spirits"/reverse skinchanging.."Strength of the mount go into the rider" (or something like that)

 

 

if sacrificing horses were enough to cure mortally wounded men, it would be done all the time... magic as i believe it to be in ASoiaf, must have a much higher price... a mother sacrificing his unborn child, sounds more like it.

[butterbumps!]

there's just a couple of points I wanted to mention--

 

1.    I think some of the posts described their interpretation as being "clear" and the like, but I don't think either interpretation is "clear" or obvious or anything.   I mean, I think it's intentionally very obscured whether MMD orchestrated it or merely owned it afterward.   I think part of that obfuscation is because Martin wants to keep the magic non-formulaic and mysterious, and the overall effect makes this not entirely clear either way.

 

2.   Something I'm noticing is that when you remove the qualitative values being placed on the actions in question, the two sides' arguments aren't that different.   That was kind of what I was trying to tease out in that earlier post.   As contentious as this topic is, I actually think there's an awful lot of overlap.

 

3.   I had the impression that Rhaego's life quickened the dragon eggs while the horse went into Drogo.   This impression stems from the fact that Rhaego was scaly and decayed, like long-dead dragon, and Drogo's vegetative state (i.e. why he never regained awareness or function).    MMD and Dany might have well believed that Rhaego was needed for Drogo's soul, but I'm not sure that's what actually got swapped.

[Tucu]

there's just a couple of points I wanted to mention--

 

1.    I think some of the posts described their interpretation as being "clear" and the like, but I don't think either interpretation is "clear" or obvious or anything.   I mean, I think it's intentionally very obscured whether MMD orchestrated it or merely owned it afterward.   I think part of that obfuscation is because Martin wants to keep the magic non-formulaic and mysterious, and the overall effect makes this not entirely clear either way.

 

2.   Something I'm noticing is that when you remove the qualitative values being placed on the actions in question, the two sides' arguments aren't that different.   That was kind of what I was trying to tease out in that earlier post.   As contentious as this topic is, I actually think there's an awful lot of overlap.

 

3.   I had the impression that Rhaego's life quickened the dragon eggs while the horse went into Drogo.   This impression stems from the fact that Rhaego was scaly and decayed, like long-dead dragon, and Drogo's vegetative state (i.e. why he never regained awareness or function).    MMD and Dany might have well believed that Rhaego was needed for Drogo's soul, but I'm not sure that's what actually got swapped.

I like this interpretation. Mirri intended Drogo to become a docile horse as a way to laugh at the powerful Dothraki. Jorah and Dany interruption caused a second effect with the life force of Rhaego being swapped with the dead dragon eggs. Mirri was probably not experienced enough with Asshai magic to know this would happen.

 

A couple of quotes to back this up:

"Strength of the mount, go into the rider," Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo's bath. "Strength of the beast, go into the man.""

 

"Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

[WSmith84]

Presumably, Mirri's feelings towards Dany might have changed over the course of Drogo's illness. Initially, Dany was the one protecting Mirri and the others of her village and Mirri witnessed the influence that Dany had over Drogo. So she may have offered to heal him, despite hating him, because it offered the best chance to secure the safety of her people (and herself). Over the course of Drogo's illness, she has chance to learn that Dany's child is prophecised to be the Stallion that Mounts the World. She may also have learned that Dany's ambition to conquer Westeros was the reason why Drogo attacked Mirri's village. And so suddenly Dany isn't the kindhearted Khaleesi, using her influence over the Khal to reduce suffering. Instead, she's the woman who influenced her husband to sack innocent villages and enslave their peoples to fund Dany's ambitions in conquering a faraway land. Yes, Dany took pity on them, but that doesn't resurrect the dead, free the enslaved or undo the sexual assaults.

 

Now, it is possible that Mirri might have swallowed her anger for the sake of her still-living people. But Drogo ignores her medical advice and sickens. Mirri is asked to examine him, and sees that he will die. Now Mirri knows that she and her people are doomed. She saw how angry the Dothraki were at Dany protecting the Lhazareen. She knows Dany only has power so long as Drogo lives. She knows that the Dothraki were very suspicious of her and did not want her treating Drogo. It would not be hard for Mirri to realise that once Drogo dies, she will be blamed and her people killed and/or raped. So now she has no reason to swallow her anger. She probably knows that Dany and Rhaego will die anyway, but she wants to hurt Dany. So she decides to perform the ritual and kill Rhaego herself.

 

The only problems I have with Mirri being guilty are that:

 

1- Mirri does warn Dany that blood magic is a bad idea, though admittedly she doesn't make it clear what it will cost or what Dany is buying. Still, there is the possibility that Dany heeds her warning, however small.

 

2- She warns Dany not to enter the tent. Gambling on the fact that Dany will, in spite of the explicit instruction not to do so, seems ridiculous as a plan to murder Rhaego. So then maybe Rhaego was dead regardless of whether or not she entered the tent. In that case though, why bother with the warning? A half-arsed attempt at covering herself?

 

All in all, I do believe that Mirri tried her best to heal Drogo and did indeed later intentionally kill Rhaego. I'm more certain about the first than the second, but not 100% sold on either.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 
Then Tyrion was a traitor and scum for saying those words to Jaime, the man who saved him from execution and perhaps the only person who loved him.

There is a distinct difference between lieing to someone in order to hurt their feelings, and lieing to someone in order to gain consent to enact vengeance or perform an unwanted abortion. I can say that both are wrong, but one is much much worse. Hence, comparing Tyrion lieing to Jaime and MMD's lack of full disclosure to Dany is false equivocation.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

If a doctor today were as unclear about the risks or repercussions of a treatment or proceedue as MMD was with Dany, they would be in jail, and for good reason.

Half truths and withholding critical information are no better than outright lies. If immoral intent is established, then the purpose behind withholding the information becomes clear. It becomes an insideous abuse of trust and clear betrayal.

 

Of course the doctor would go to jail, but so would the client, and for a freaking good reason too: the most appropriate analogy that I can think of for what Mirri and Dany did, is illegal organ transplantation, you know, of the cinema sort, where someone is murdered so that his/her kidney and such goes into a rich person's body. As far as I know, the clients of such transactions would be held as culpable as the doctors.

(Of course it's highly possible that one might be cheated in doing underworld business, but you can't go to the police for that and you know it.)

 

 

there's just a couple of points I wanted to mention--

 

1.    I think some of the posts described their interpretation as being "clear" and the like, but I don't think either interpretation is "clear" or obvious or anything.   I mean, I think it's intentionally very obscured whether MMD orchestrated it or merely owned it afterward.   I think part of that obfuscation is because Martin wants to keep the magic non-formulaic and mysterious, and the overall effect makes this not entirely clear either way.

 

2.   Something I'm noticing is that when you remove the qualitative values being placed on the actions in question, the two sides' arguments aren't that different.   That was kind of what I was trying to tease out in that earlier post.   As contentious as this topic is, I actually think there's an awful lot of overlap.

 

3.   I had the impression that Rhaego's life quickened the dragon eggs while the horse went into Drogo.   This impression stems from the fact that Rhaego was scaly and decayed, like long-dead dragon, and Drogo's vegetative state (i.e. why he never regained awareness or function).    MMD and Dany might have well believed that Rhaego was needed for Drogo's soul, but I'm not sure that's what actually got swapped.

 

I agree. I don't think that there can be any certainty about what Mirri really knew, heck, not even about what she thought she knew.

I also like the #3 alternative.

[Mithras]

There is a distinct difference between lieing to someone in order to hurt their feelings, and lieing to someone in order to gain consent to enact vengeance or perform an unwanted abortion. I can say that both are wrong, but one is much much worse. Hence, comparing Tyrion lieing to Jaime and MMD's lack of full disclosure to Dany is false equivocation.

 

I don't believe that MMD had any hand in Dany's abortion. So, the bolded part does not apply to me.

[Taenqyrhae]

There's the possibility too that MMD intended for the life force of Rhaego to go into Drogo, but it was already gone because it had gone into the dragon eggs - thus, the long decayed aspect - she had been handling the eggs for months.  The movement she felt could have been misinterpreted contractions - it was her first pregnancy.

[Mithras]

3.   I had the impression that Rhaego's life quickened the dragon eggs while the horse went into Drogo.   This impression stems from the fact that Rhaego was scaly and decayed, like long-dead dragon, and Drogo's vegetative state (i.e. why he never regained awareness or function).    MMD and Dany might have well believed that Rhaego was needed for Drogo's soul, but I'm not sure that's what actually got swapped.

 

Dragon eggs started releasing heat that only Dany could sense long before the ritual. The earliest one mentioned was the egg of Drogon which was in Dany III where Dany learned that she was pregnant and it was her 14^th nameday. Although the timeline is not exactly clear, it is highly probable that Dany realized that she was pregnant due to a missing period or two at the time she was 14. That means the dragon eggs started absorbing the life from Rhaego in the womb as soon as he was conceived.

[RoamingRonin]

Mirri did cast a healing spell:
...the wound on his breast was as healed as it would ever be, the scar that covered it grey and red and hideous.

Dany was not comatose long enough for Drogo's wound to heal and turn to a scar. He was too far gone to for Mirri to simply heal his wound and put him to bed. She brought him back from the brink of death. I don't buy the idea she was just taking credit for what happened. She was directly responsible for turning him into a shell.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Mirri did cast a healing spell:
...the wound on his breast was as healed as it would ever be, the scar that covered it grey and red and hideous.

Dany was not comatose long enough for Drogo's wound to heal and turn to a scar. He was too far gone to for Mirri to simply heal his wound and put him to bed. She brought him back from the brink of death. I don't buy the idea she was just taking credit for what happened. She was directly responsible for turning him into a shell.

 

indeed.. and since only death can pay for life, she must have sacrificed Rhaego to cure Drogo`s wound.

[Balerion the kitten]

Dragon eggs started releasing heat that only Dany could sense long before the ritual. The earliest one mentioned was the egg of Drogon which was in Dany III where Dany learned that she was pregnant and it was her 14^th nameday. Although the timeline is not exactly clear, it is highly probable that Dany realized that she was pregnant due to a missing period or two at the time she was 14. That means the dragon eggs started absorbing the life from Rhaego in the womb as soon as he was conceived.

No. She only felt heat after the ritual, when she woke up from her fever dreams.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 
Of course the doctor would go to jail, but so would the client, and for a freaking good reason too: the most appropriate analogy that I can think of for what Mirri and Dany did, is illegal organ transplantation, you know, of the cinema sort, where someone is murdered so that his/her kidney and such goes into a rich person's body.

I'm not discussing the inherent nature of the procedure, I'm discussing the lack of disclosure. You're talking about another ball game, and it doesn't address my argument. Red Herring.

If Dany is unaware of the pariculars of the procedure, how can she be responsible in part for it? If she thinks the organ is coming from a horse, and has not been made to clearly understand just where the organ is coming from, how is she culpable? We both know that clarity is key in these situations. Was there clarity? Was there true consent? It is obvious to me that there was not.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 
I don't believe that MMD had any hand in Dany's abortion. So, the bolded part does not apply to me.

Then we are talking about different situations. If MMD is not responsible for Rhaego's abortion, then MMD is only responsible for NOT bringing back Drogo to the expected level of consciousness. Betrayal is only involved if Mmd could have brought back Drogo fully and chose not to.

But I base my belief that she was involved on the fact that she was accused and did not deny, and even gave reasoning as to why she would perform such an abortion. It is clear that a life required a life. But WHOSE life was NOT clear prior to agreement.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I'm not discussing the inherent nature of the procedure, I'm discussing the lack of disclosure. You're talking about another ball game, and it doesn't address my argument. Red Herring.

If Dany is unaware of the pariculars of the procedure, how can she be responsible in part for it? If she thinks the organ is coming from a horse, and has not been made to clearly understand just where the organ is coming from, how is she culpable? We both know that clarity is key in these situations. Was there clarity? Was there true consent? It is obvious to me that there was not.

 

I've addressed this some pages before. She does not think it's the horse. She has absolutely no basis to even think of it, when she seals the deal. She convinces herself of this, later on, because it allows her to overlook her responsibility.

 

ETA, for clarification: she does not think it's Rhaego (IMO) when she orders the final "do it", but it's pretty obvious it's some unspecified human.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 
I've addressed this some pages before. She does not think it's the horse. She has absolutely no basis to even think of it, when she seals the deal. She convinces herself of this, later on, because it allows her to overlook her responsibility.

I disagree. I believe the passage you refer to mentions horses as payment, not sacrifice. Were the terms made clear or not? Was what kind of life and whose made CLEAR? Or was there information withheld?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I disagree. I believe the passage you refer to mentions horses as payment, not sacrifice. Were the terms made clear or not? Was what kind of life and whose made CLEAR? Or was there information withheld?

 

Explain to me how someone would make the mental jump from "is it me"? to "OK, since it's not me then it *must* be some horse".

 

It's perfectly clear, that it must be a human life: horses will not do because only death may pay for life. Dany immediately gets that it must be someone (and correctly assumes that it's someone of importance). Her final "do it" is on those terms.

[Avlonnic]

ASOS, Jon III,

   We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. 

 

I find each side of this discussion compelling in some regard.