Sansa/Sandor?

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Nope. Your post was just really creepy from start to finish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is getting kind of awkward . . .

 

 

Perhaps you two ought to gain more experience.

[Light a wight tonight]

Why do people ship Sansa and Sandor when it's clearly not an healthy relationship especially when it comes to Sansa? I personally find it really disgusting.

Dany and Daario are soooo much better. Blech!

[mywintersong]

My SanSan issue isn't a moral one, but a societal one. Sansa is the oldest daughter of Ned Stark....a second son of a small house like Clegane isn't that great of a match. (Maybe there is something there about Sansa rejecting the idea that people only want her for her claim, but I am way too tired to work it out.)

Also, for the sake of argument, I don't find SanSan gross, at least not in WOW. It's a beauty and the beast thing. I mean, it Belle and the Beast were real, that would be seriously icky.

I agree with pretty much everything JonConn wrote. (Almost always, btw!)

[Sansa Snow]

 

So only "good people" can find love? That's a little black and white for GRRM's world. The Hound might not be a blatant good guy, but I don't think he's a bad guy either. I think he is as good a person as you could expect from the life he's lived.

 

I'm not saying only "good people" can find love, just that Sandor can go find his love from somewhere else. Sandor is not entirely a bad person, but he's not good for Sansa. That poor girl is actually afraid of him. If Sansa had Arya's nature, they would be more suitable match. Sansa needs someone who is kind and caring, not a broken man like sandor.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

I agree with pretty much everything JonConn wrote. (Almost always, btw!)

 

JonCon hid Her sex from the rest of us.

 

Pretended to be a dude, but she's a female...

[The Ned's Little Girl]

My SanSan issue isn't a moral one, but a societal one. Sansa is the oldest daughter of Ned Stark....a second son of a small house like Clegane isn't that great of a match.

 

If you accept that women should be regarded as commodities, to be bestowed where they can gain the greatest material advantage, then yeah.

 

But a big part of Sansa's journey is about rejecting that ideology and trying to find someone who loves her for herself alone.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

 

Might have to call in Robert Langdon to crack this secret . . .

 

I am not in the habit of checking my fellow users profiles.

 

Besides, this is the Internet.

 

On the internet, a 75 year old dude can easily be a 18 year old female...

[Darkstream]

I am not in the habit of checking my fellow users profiles.
 
Besides, this is the Internet.
 
On the internet, a 75 year old dude can easily be a 18 year old female...

Well it seems you still don't know if she/he is male or female then. :p

[Lord Wraith]

I don't see them as a couple in the end. I think Sandor will end up on Sansa's Kingsguard perhaps LC.

[Darkstream]

I don't see them as a couple in the end. I think Sandor will end up on Sansa's Kingsguard perhaps LC.

Nah, Sandor didn't take to well to being a kingsgaurd, it will have to be Queensguard in this case. ;)

[kimim]

I love Sansa, and I love Sandor. They don't belong together.

 

Sandor is seriously emotionally damaged. He's been through hell. He has issues with his family, with his society. He's got a problem dealing with his anger. He can get violent fast, and we see that even in his travels with Arya. There's a reason why GRRM sends him to a monastery to heal him. He literally has to get away from it all.

 

Sansa has also been through hell. She doesn't need a guy like Sandor, and Sandor doesn't need Sansa, as being with her would send him right back into the game, where everything he gave up to find peace would return to plague him. To anyone who says "oh but he's in love now, so all that will change," you're wrong.

 

As for virginity: omg, why do people make a big deal of it??? The above has nothing to do with Sansa being a virgin. It has to do with wanting the best for both these characters.

[Lord Wraith]

Nah, Sandor didn't take to well to being a kingsgaurd, it will have to be Queensguard in this case. ;)

 

Well it will be Sansa and Aegon in the end so technically still Kingsguard.

[ChillyPolly]

I tend toward the OP's thinking. While I agree that there may be hints of something up between them, it is not quite what people suppose, and the worst of the SanSan shippers are idealizing a creepy relationship.

Most of the shippers seem to think Sansa should accept Sandor the way he is. Except that Sandor, the way he is, is a monster. I am not ABSOLUTELY opposed to the idea that we are seeing the seeds of some kind of relationship between them. Nor am I opposed to the idea that Sandor may possibly be on the road to some kind of redemption. But I am definitely of the opinion that Sandor, and not Sansa, is the one who needs to change. If this is a "Beauty and the Beast" story, then the Beast must still transform, before he deserves Beauty.

And while it is clearly true that Sandor has feelings for Sansa, the feeling is NOT mutual. Sansa is terrified of Sandor. Yes, she has mixed feelings, but these mixed feeling mainly consist of trying to decide who is more scary: Sandor or the people Sandor might protect her from. In this context she often appreciates him in the role of protector. But even in this context, she is so terrified she refuses to even look at him.

The "unkiss" is not evidence that she has the hots for him. The "unkiss" is evidence that she has suppressed the traumatic memory of his knife pressed against her throat as he threatens to take her life. She has replaced it with a false memory that is -- if not exactly pleasant -- at least less traumatic. It is evidence of her inability to accurately remember things that frighten her (an aspect of her persona which I suspect will come to play in future). Her sex dreams about him seem to me more like nightmares than fantasies; indicating her semi-conscious awareness of the threat he poses as a potential rapist.

[Le Cygne]

If you take the story literally, you miss the undercurrent, which is that Sansa is turned on by Sandor. This is what GRRM is basing the Sansa and the Hound story upon, this is his favorite version of Beauty and the Beast, Cocteau's La Belle et la Bete:
 

Consider the extraordinary shot where Belle waits at the dining table in the castle for the Beast's first entrance. He appears behind her and approaches silently. She senses his presence, and begins to react in a way that some viewers have described as fright, although it is clearly orgasmic. Before she has even seen him, she is aroused to her very depths, and a few seconds later, as she tells him she cannot marry--a Beast!--she toys with a knife that is more than a knife.

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-beauty-and-the-beast-1946

Here's that scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mfXKY9Gfis

I think their story is some of his best writing, very erotic, as others have pointed out, and quite mutual.

[Curled Finger]

I'm not a big shipper of any of the romances in the books because the minute I get to thinking Jamie & Brienne or Sansa & Sandor I know for a FACT that the author will kill one of them.   Horribly.   Look what happened when I just dared Edmure to marry a Frey.   Poor guy.   However, these pairings do speak to each other's arcs.   On that account they are beautiful together.   Now should either of these couples enter into a sexual relationship I will be frightened.   None of them are sterling psychological pillars, they are all flawed and even ugly.   I get it that we all sort of want to protect Sansa.   She is the daughter we hope for or the younger sister we may have had.  Sansa gets personal for many readers.  However, in my opinion, as Sansa's parent and sibling, no one will protect her better than Sandor Clegane.   He has already saved her from a vicious rape and probable murder, beatings, humiliation.   Sandor or The Hound rather has opened Sansa's eyes to reality Joffrey couldn't beat into her.  I cannot elucidate better than the previous posts on that count.   That same vicious Hound really did protect Arya too.  He's not bad.  He's conflicted.   Sansa may have been the first person to get close enough to him to make him want to care.  She was the one he went to in his darkest most terrified hour to rescue her again while the opportunity was there, despite the mess he was. Sansa prepared this beautiful monster for the Sandor we will see in Winds.  In the brutal world of Westeros, Sansa and Sandor have learned to trust and care for another person. For that they belong in each other's stories.  

[Le Cygne]

Also one more thing about La Belle et la Bete, Beauty tells the Beast, "I like being afraid... with you." She's not really afraid, it's subtext, their story is filled with subtext. This is about sexuality, he turns her on, that's how she likes it.

 

Which shines light on a very important dimension of Sansa and the Hound and their scenes, this fear is akin to excitement, he's awakening the beast within her. He's constantly associated with her thoughts of Lady for a reason.

[Le Cygne]

In the brutal world of Westeros, Sansa and Sandor have learned to trust and care for another person. For that they belong in each other's stories.  

 

Very beautiful, this gets to the heart of the matter.

[OldGimletEye]

Most of the shippers seem to think Sansa should accept Sandor the way he is. Except that Sandor, the way he is, is a monster.

I would have to quibble with this just a bit. I think most Sandor fans know that Sandor has some issues he needs to address.

Hopefully the Elder Brother can help to counsel Sandor some, along with a few well placed and timely ass chewings on occasion.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Martin has A LOT of flaws in his writing, but he's very good at one thing:

 

Erotic undertones.

 

He's better at that than at writing sex scenes, honestly.

 

Dany learning to control Drogon.

 

The Crowning of Lyanna.

 

Jaime fighting Brienne.

 

...aaaand I know I'm missing more.

 

Sansa and Sandor are FULL WITH SYMBOLISM. He covers her not only with a cloak but with a bloody cloak.

 

The best erotic is not having too people saying "look at all the sex we're having!". The best one is the one you don't tell, like the scene Cygne mentions above. Beast enters the place and Belle seems to be terrified, until we see she grabs a knife and starts playing with it. She's not terrified: she's aroused. The "fear" Sansa (or any other virginal protagonist) fears is not for her safety. It's due to what Sandor makes her feel about herself. That's why Belle fears the Beast: "How could I, an innocent virginal girl, love a man who is driven by desire?". She doesn't fear him. She fears that she wants to take that risk despite Sansa and Belle are probably told that certain sexual desires are wrong.

 

Sandor being a rough monster is a representation of his own sexuality. Once that antagonises Sansa's innocence and virginity. The whole dichotomy she is often faced with about is "knights vs monsters" for one reason. One represents a idealized notion of sex while the other one is a primal urge.

[ChillyPolly]

I disagree with the idea that Sansa only sees Sandor as a terrifying dog who protects her from more frightening people.
She's scared of him, yes, but there's more to it than that.

I don't know what you mean by "only". All I meant is that she does not want to fuck him.

She says a prayer for him to the Mother,

Well sure, but that does not mean she wants to fuck him.

she imagines him coming to save her again when she's scared,

Which is entirely consistent with her thinking of him as a protector, which I already acknowledged.

and she expressly thinks of the UnKiss during sexual situations.

She's a human being. She has sexual organs. All possible situations in which she is involved are "sexual". That does not mean she wants to fuck him.

The context of the way she remembers it is pretty clear, and it's not that of a traumatic memory that she invents a fantasy to forget.

That seems to be precisely the context, since she does not remember the knife to her throat at all, but only the verbal threat.

If she remembered it accurately she would remember him leaning in to kiss her, her wincing in horror, then OH MY GOD I'M GOING TO DIE OH MY GOD I'M GOING TO DIE OH MY GOD I'M GOING TO DIE!!! She instead remembers him leaning in to kiss her, her wincing in horror, then [traumatic memory blocked]. The blank in the memory has been filled with a kiss, not because she wanted him to kiss her, but because that is what she logically expected to follow when he leaned in to kiss her and she winced in horror.