I Think People Should be Paid not to Work, if That's What They Want: Switzerland to vote

[MerenthaClone]

Some would argue that getting a degree, a commission, and leading sailors is plenty hard.  

While it might not seem hard to you, from the outside that looks pretty fucking difficult to me.  I think you're out now?  Maybe?  Not sure, but either way, that's a pretty awesome accomplishment, and I'm not going to be the one to take that away from you. 

Minutes after saying that you disagree with the thought " just because someone is successful they haven't worked hard, that it's been handed to them" you insist that someone must have worked hard because she's successful, despite her denying it.  Its like your unable to believe that effort expended doesn't correlate with success in many, many circumstances.  I think that spending time and effort on a task certainly helps with your chances of success, don't get me wrong, but I don't get this fetishization of labor.  

[Starkess]

Some would argue that getting a degree, a commission, and leading sailors is plenty hard.  

While it might not seem hard to you, from the outside that looks pretty fucking difficult to me.  I think you're out now?  Maybe?  Not sure, but either way, that's a pretty awesome accomplishment, and I'm not going to be the one to take that away from you. 

Thank you, I appreciate the sentiment. I have done some cool shit and am proud of where I am at in my life, but my point is that it isn't really all that correlated with how hard I've worked.

For example, I was a nuclear officer. This required a long training school that was very intensive and many of my peers failed out. We were encouraged to put in 15 hours a week outside of class studying, and if you were doing poorly you would get mandatory extra hours (up to like a max of 30 or something). I usually put in 0 hours of studying outside class. And I graduated #2 in my class.

Contrast that with something that I have worked extremely hard at, which is becoming a published writer. I have been working on that shit for years and years. I have written six full-length novel manuscripts, countless short stories, and sent out 150+ queries. And I have made it exactly nowhere, never had a single acceptance.

Hard work can absolutely help you. I would not discourage someone from working hard. But to boil down to hard work = success is just not at all true.

[peterbound]

Minutes after saying that you disagree with the thought " just because someone is successful they haven't worked hard, that it's been handed to them" you insist that someone must have worked hard because she's successful, despite her denying it.  Its like your unable to believe that effort expended doesn't correlate with success in many, many circumstances.  I think that spending time and effort on a task certainly helps with your chances of success, don't get me wrong, but I don't get this fetishization of labor.  

It was't 'handed' to her. If you read her description of the process she went trough to get to where she is at, it fits my definition of hard work.  Now, she may see it as something she was good at, was easy, or came naturally to her, but that work in my world is some hard stuff.  

 

And she is working hard now on the books.  It sucks when you are in the middle of it, but it usually pays off in the end.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I 

[MerenthaClone]

And she is working hard now on the books.  It sucks when you are in the middle of it, but it usually pays off in the end.

And when it doesn't, tough shit?

[Happy Ent]

Folks, in principle this is an interesting topic, but puz-leaze…

Nobody generates value by just working hard, and you can’t seriously think that. Lots of video gamers would otherwise be very, very rich.

Instead, you generate value by doing something that somebody else wants done. 

The amount of effort you put into this is not important. Effort only becomes important when several providers compete to fulfil the demand. Then, all other things being equal, the provider with the most effort will be slightly favoured to fulfil the demand. (But this is not a given; there can be many other factors that determine this.) 

The function of money is not to remunerate hard work. It has never been. Instead, money is just a  useful way of transforming differentials in utility functions into goods and services.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

And when it doesn't, tough shit?

When it doesn't at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that it wasn't because of a lack of effort on your part. I think that's an important point that has maybe been missed here. Even if you have a shit job, you have to realize that you're putting your name on it everyday. Even if you're not necessarily moving up the ladder (maybe you're not even pursuing that) you're going to feel better about yourself if you know that you've given it your best effort. 

I can tell that many posters here feel "Hard work is its' own reward" is a load of bullshit, but there is some truth behind it.

[Theda Baratheon]

When it doesn't at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that it wasn't because of a lack of effort on your part. I think that's an important point that has maybe been missed here. Even if you have a shit job, you have to realize that you're putting your name on it everyday. Even if you're not necessarily moving up the ladder (maybe you're not even pursuing that) you're going to feel better about yourself if you know that you've given it your best effort. 

I can tell that many posters here feel "Hard work is its' own reward" is a load of bullshit, but there is some truth behind it.

i feel good about myself when i've gone a good job in work even if its not a great job i do feel pretty good when i've done the same work as 2 other people. some ays i work harder than others lol but i always feel better when i've done more. 

[Chris G]

When it doesn't at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that it wasn't because of a lack of effort on your part. I think that's an important point that has maybe been missed here. Even if you have a shit job, you have to realize that you're putting your name on it everyday. Even if you're not necessarily moving up the ladder (maybe you're not even pursuing that) you're going to feel better about yourself if you know that you've given it your best effort. 

I can tell that many posters here feel "Hard work is its' own reward" is a load of bullshit, but there is some truth behind it.

How about when that hard work is ignored or downplayed?  "Thanks for busting your ass making sure we met our goals, here's some pizza."  Or when the company decides that it wants to save money and bring in temp workers to slowly replace the well paid employees.  I've seen all that happen.  Hard work is only a very small part of a person's overall success.  Who you know and who's ass you kiss is much more important, along with "does your boss like you?"  I've seen absolute shit bags continue to be employed because the boss liked them personally.  You can bust your ass all day and still get shit because the boss doesn't like you. 

My job doesn't define me, or make me feel like a better person.  My family is for that.  My job provides me with money to allow me to support my family and do the things I want to do.  Leaving my last job was one of the best things for my overall well being.  Now I don't feel like a failure because I can't make arbitrary goals and keep track of what bullshit rule is important this week.  I don't have to worry if this is the week they decide to fire me or just counsel me.   I don't have to worry that I might hurt my back again, or worry that if I do they'll find some bullshit reason to fire me.  Hard work had nothing to do with being successful there, making the bosses look good was the most important thing.  When you bust your ass to do a good job and do the right thing all the time and still get shit, you realize that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. 

That's why I think hard work is only a small part of being successful.  Luck and timing are the most important factors IMO.  The luck and timing to have the skills needed at the time when they are in demand.  Hard work can help in being successful after that, but hard work is not the overriding factor.  As has been said numerous times in the thread, everyone works hard to be successful, but your success is not determined solely by how hard you work.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

How about when that hard work is ignored or downplayed?  "Thanks for busting your ass making sure we met our goals, here's some pizza."  Or when the company decides that it wants to save money and bring in temp workers to slowly replace the well paid employees.  I've seen all that happen.  Hard work is only a very small part of a person's overall success.  Who you know and who's ass you kiss is much more important, along with "does your boss like you?"  I've seen absolute shit bags continue to be employed because the boss liked them personally.  You can bust your ass all day and still get shit because the boss doesn't like you. 

My job doesn't define me, or make me feel like a better person.  My family is for that.  My job provides me with money to allow me to support my family and do the things I want to do.  Leaving my last job was one of the best things for my overall well being.  Now I don't feel like a failure because I can't make arbitrary goals and keep track of what bullshit rule is important this week.  I don't have to worry if this is the week they decide to fire me or just counsel me.   I don't have to worry that I might hurt my back again, or worry that if I do they'll find some bullshit reason to fire me.  Hard work had nothing to do with being successful there, making the bosses look good was the most important thing.  When you bust your ass to do a good job and do the right thing all the time and still get shit, you realize that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. 

That's why I think hard work is only a small part of being successful.  Luck and timing are the most important factors IMO.  The luck and timing to have the skills needed at the time when they are in demand.  Hard work can help in being successful after that, but hard work is not the overriding factor.  As has been said numerous times in the thread, everyone works hard to be successful, but your success is not determined solely by how hard you work.

Agree with all of this. If you are being treated like shit at your job, there is no shame in getting the fuck out, absolutely. In some ways that even works its' way back to Hard Work in that it takes a significant effort to regroup, maybe go back to school to learn a new trade, finding a new employer who appreciates you, etc. 

I never said hard work is a panacea. It is a virtue however. At least in my view.

[BloodRider]

 

Agree with all of this. If you are being treated like shit at your job, there is no shame in getting the fuck out, absolutely. In some ways that even works its' way back to Hard Work in that it takes a significant effort to regroup, maybe go back to school to learn a new trade, finding a new employer who appreciates you, etc. 

I never said hard work is a panacea. It is a virtue however. At least in my view.

So here's the thing.  If there were a guaranteed income, (and single payor Healthcare) people would be able to leave jobs where hard work doesn't mean anything, and they get treated like crap.  They would be able to start their own businesses without risking their family's and their own life and limb, health and well being.  

One more reason why I think big businesses oppose such initiatives.  They don't want the competition for workers, and they don't want the competition from entrepreneurs.

[Marcus Agrippa]

i disagree with both sides of the argument. I think we need to re-work the way we WORK and what we DO. Stuff like retail and fast food can be done in by machines in 15 years, ultimately I believe people should work in their communities. Planting, reowrking roads and so forth. We could do a lot of work with stuff like that.

The second thing is reworking currency, supply and demand, and the core concepts of the market. With 3-D printers becoming more available stuff like mugs, cups, plates and even eventually food are going to be come pointless to sell. Then there is the internet which is just an information selling machine. The economics we currently run can't ADJUST to this new world. There is literally no way to measure the supply and demand of this stuff. Then you have sports, TV shows, Books, Stories, and so forth that add no hard value to sociecty. Do we tax every printed item? Do we just keep cheapening stuff to its impossible to make a profit? The market and governing system is way too outdated to deal with this world. The stock market also no longer reflects any sort of reality. The market is literally just a social exchange which is math based.

[MerenthaClone]

Agree with all of this. If you are being treated like shit at your job, there is no shame in getting the fuck out, absolutely. In some ways that even works its' way back to Hard Work in that it takes a significant effort to regroup, maybe go back to school to learn a new trade, finding a new employer who appreciates you, etc. 

I never said hard work is a panacea. It is a virtue however. At least in my view.

Sure, people should take pride in their work.  I do, certainly, and know I'm not getting rewarded by anyone for the time I spend arguing with docs who don't want to do their job or double-checking med orders or taking the time to really bathe a dude with no family or brain function.  Nobody is going to appreciate the last one, but I still do it. I like my job, despite all of the literal shit thrown my way. Working hard is important, but the idea that just working hard is enough to guarantee success isn't necessarily related to that.  One deals with internal self-satisfaction, the other deals with how we tie a bunch of societal shit together.  I think hard work is important on an individual level.  I think the societal idea that hard work guarantees success (and especially that success necessarily meant prior hard work) is a pernicious one that prevents a lot of social advancement.  We have someone saying "I'm successful and I didn't work hard at all" and another person saying "you're successful so you must have worked hard even though you don't think so". This is mindboggling to me.  

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Sure, people should take pride in their work.  I do, certainly, and know I'm not getting rewarded by anyone for the time I spend arguing with docs who don't want to do their job or double-checking med orders or taking the time to really bathe a dude with no family or brain function.  Nobody is going to appreciate the last one, but I still do it. I like my job, despite all of the literal shit thrown my way. Working hard is important, but the idea that just working hard is enough to guarantee success isn't necessarily related to that.  One deals with internal self-satisfaction, the other deals with how we tie a bunch of societal shit together.  I think hard work is important on an individual level.  I think the societal idea that hard work guarantees success (and especially that success necessarily meant prior hard work) is a pernicious one that prevents a lot of social advancement.  We have someone saying "I'm successful and I didn't work hard at all" and another person saying "you're successful so you must have worked hard even though you don't think so". This is mindboggling to me.  

 

Well said, and again I agree with everything posted here. The last bit is especially ridiculous, and honestly should probably disregarded. I'm going to take the original poster at her word. 

[peterbound]

Well said, and again I agree with everything posted here. The last bit is especially ridiculous, and honestly should probably disregarded. I'm going to take the original poster at her word. 

Pretty sure it was in comparison to what she is doing now, which she considers harder.  15 hours a day studying for a position as a nuclear officer is hard work.  Again, it might have came naturally to her, but an objective view would make that look like hard fucking work, and she was rewarded for it.  

 

[peterbound]

Sure, people should take pride in their work.  I do, certainly, and know I'm not getting rewarded by anyone for the time I spend arguing with docs who don't want to do their job or double-checking med orders or taking the time to really bathe a dude with no family or brain function.  Nobody is going to appreciate the last one, but I still do it. I like my job, despite all of the literal shit thrown my way. Working hard is important, but the idea that just working hard is enough to guarantee success isn't necessarily related to that.  One deals with internal self-satisfaction, the other deals with how we tie a bunch of societal shit together.  I think hard work is important on an individual level.  I think the societal idea that hard work guarantees success (and especially that success necessarily meant prior hard work) is a pernicious one that prevents a lot of social advancement.  We have someone saying "I'm successful and I didn't work hard at all" and another person saying "you're successful so you must have worked hard even though you don't think so". This is mindboggling to me.  

 

What's mind boggling to me, is that anyone would choose to be a nurse. But we all have areas that seem so clear to others, but befuddle the shit out of us. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

What's mind boggling to me, is that anyone would choose to be a nurse.

What's mind boggling to me, is that anyone would choose to be a nurse. 

Somehow this does not surprise me much.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 

[LessThanLuke2]

I do the minimum possible to not get fired in work. Any more is wasted effort.