I Think People Should be Paid not to Work, if That's What They Want: Switzerland to vote

[Liffguard]

 I also know Trump worked pretty damn hard to get what he has.  That may not look like shuttling tables, but he put in the hours, and has his empire to prove it.  

 

Cracked, of all fucking places, had a pretty good response to this:

"Most high-income earners do put in a ton of hours. Bill Gates seemed to never sleep (an employee once said that putting in 81 hours in four days still couldn't keep up with Gates' schedule). So yes, it's unfair that we tend to think that "being rich" means "lounging by the pool while an albino tiger massages our feet with his tongue." So, "Hey, I work hard for what I have!" is perfectly true. It's also insulting..........

......So, mister rich person who clearly is not reading this, when we say you're "lucky," we're not saying you're lucky in the way that a lottery winner is lucky. We're saying that you're lucky if you were born in a time and place where the hard work you're good at (say, stock speculation) is valued over the hard work that other people are good at (say, landscaping, or poetry).

You can reply that if some other field paid more, you'd have just simply switched to it and been equally successful, due to your smarts and determination. You know, like how the smart and determined Michael Jordan was equally successful as a basketball player (six titles, $70 million a year) and baseball player (batted .202 in the minors) and team owner (his Charlotte Bobcats are currently 4-28).

Hmm ... wait a second. Man, it's almost like Michael's hard work and determination wouldn't have made him rich if he hadn't happened to have been born in the one place and one time in human history where a man could get rich throwing a rubber ball through a small metal hoop.......

.......So to sum it up: If you make good money, but have to work 80-hour weeks to get it, you're still lucky. Just swallow your pride and fucking acknowledge it."

In fact it's a pretty damn good (if old) article and I encourage people to read it.

  What you don't like is that he had a leg up to start with. I get that, but it's rooted in jealousy, and empty bitterness.

 

Nothing wrong with getting a leg-up. People can't help the circumstances of their birth and are no more to blame for being born rich than being born poor. I mean, fuck, I'm pretty much the poster child for having every possible advantage handed to me from the starting line so I'm definitely not going to hold it against someone for their background.

The problem is when people like Trump conflate financial success with work ethic and virtue, and imply that those without similar financial success must therefore be lacking work ethic and virtue.

[Malik Ambar]

Why are people getting so personal ? Chill, alright. The sad thing is this is the way the world is, but what can we do about it ? It's wrong, unfair, unjust but that's how it is. All we can really do in all this is just try to navigate through all the shit, work smart and remember to actually enjoy life while we're at it.

Now, coming to the point of automation, machines are sure going to take up a lot of secondary occupation jobs, which will push more and more people into tertiary occupations. But is there enough job creation capacity in this sector ? How long before even this is taken over to a certain extent by machines ? How radically will this change global economies ? And to what  extent ?

[Malik Ambar]

I love all the class prejudice is on display in this thread. 

Peterbound, fancying himself a member of the true proletariat, shits on those he perceives to be the lumpen. 

Wise Fool, presumably a member of the lumpen, has nothing but contempt for the "white collar assholes" showing off their "easy money."

Ahhhh, dialogue! 

... and the invitation to completely toss open the floodgates of nasty personal attacks has been accepted. 

Stick a fork in it - this thread is done. 

I think you're both chucking around some pretty big assumptions at each other, nasty ones too. There's no need for it. 

Exactly. Stop. Fight for your positions but know very well others have their opinions and they are going to stick to them just as strongly as you stick to yours.

[peterbound]

Wait. Why are you telling me to stop arguing?

Contribute something or leave. We have moderators, and you're not one of them.

[Malik Ambar]

Moderators will indeed deal with it, but until then we'll speak up about it as and when we see out of line behavior.

And let's not talk about contributions to the discussion man. If we do, you'll see who has to leave.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Wait. Why are you telling me to stop arguing?

 

Contribute something or leave. We have moderators, and you're not one of them.

 

 

I think because the personal arguments add nothing and discourage others from posting?

Anyway, I think the problem is in how people are defining "hard work".   For some, it means physical labor, for others it means determination, working smarter, never giving up. My husband couldn’t understand how I come home exhausted every day when all I do is sit at a desk. He works in a warehouse, physically lifting/moving/carrying stuff.

I used to think that anyone could pull themselves up with hard work.  My first husband and I both did it.  We came from welfare families, joined the military, went to college at night, got degrees and moved solidly into the middle class.  I never thought we were lucky, we were smart and we worked hard and sacrificed a lot to do it.

It never dawned on me that we were the exception, not the rule.  I was sure that if we could do it, anyone could, especially him, since he went to a poor school, never had his dyslexia diagnosed until late high school and was in special-ed most of the time, because he couldn’t pass timed test (which are used to determine placement)  Now he’s an engineer and I’m an analyst (and a substitute teacher when I don’t have a regular full time job).

It wasn’t until I suddenly found myself on the other side that I started seeing how things work.

Depending on which side you are standing on, you are both right.  I can see it because I have been on both sides.

**********************************************************************************

Back to the main topic:  Yes there are people who would take advantage, there always are.  But there are more who are like me, and really just can’t do “nothing”.  Plus, many (like me) don’t want to live a “basic” lifestyle.  The option is available to everyone, it is what you want from life that determines if you are happy taking just the basic or not.  If you decide to not just accept the basic, why do you care if others do? That is the part I have a hard time understanding.  Working “hard” is your choice, no one is forcing upon you. (IN THIS CONTEXT, NOT IN REAL LIFE)

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Well, I did say 'base pay' right?  I'll clear one 100K this year with over time.  Did I mention I only work 10 days a month as well?  

My wife makes a little more than me, so that firmly puts us in the top 10% of earners in the US.

And I have a pension plan, so I could give a fuck what my 401k (or in our case it would be a 401a..social security exempt) looks like.

 

And you can keep saying that hard work didn't lead to my success.  You couldn't be more wrong.  I worked hard on my education, tasks, and obtaining my goals.  And again, I think everyone here has this impression of the wealthy just sitting around smoking cigars, counting their money, and laughing at all you schlubs (and maybe some do, probably the same amount of people on the other end that complaint about the wealthy) but they probably worked pretty damn hard to get what they have.  What that 'work' looks like might not be the same for them and I, but they put in the energy to make that shit happen. 

PB,
You make more than I do.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 I'm guessing that part of the problem here is the perceived implication that if you are not successful, you are assumed to be lazy or not a hard worker. I don't think anyone here is meaning to imply that. 

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

 I'm guessing that part of the problem here is the perceived implication that if you are not successful, you are assumed to be lazy or not a hard worker. I don't think anyone here is meaning to imply that. 

I'm pretty sure that this is exactly the implication that is being made. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

 I'm guessing that part of the problem here is the perceived implication that if you are not successful, you are assumed to be lazy or not a hard worker. I don't think anyone here is meaning to imply that.

Often times people don't mean to imply this, but they unknowingly do. I'm not saying it's happening here, just how it often works IMO.

 

i.e. "work harder"

I think it's a toss up and largely depends on where you work. When I wroked in politics, working harder definitely got me ahead. But a lot of corporate jobs working harder means you get your boss ahead, not yourself.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I'm pretty sure that this is exactly the implication that is being made. 

Well yeah, I can really only speak for myself and say that I'm not implying that, nor do I believe that to be necessarily true. 

[JonSnow4President]

I think the sad thing is that a lot of the "work harder" comments don't necessarily apply to the present.  A lot of the work that goes in when we're young impacts our career prospects as adults (although factors other than work ethic of course go into it). It's not a simple work harder = better results, but all other things being equal, it is a positive relationship in the long-term.  

Once we've chosen our careers, outside of nepotism, Associate 1 and Associate 2, who are identical except for their work ethic, Associate 1 will be compensated in the long term better than Associate 2 the vast majority of the time.  

That's not to say the hard worker always comes out on top.  Relative to most of my university peers, I worked by far less, but because of the natural blessings of great information recall, an analytical mind that thought in a way where the field came naturally, and a bit of working "smarter" rather than harder (not cheating, just studying the right way), I skated to a cum laude degree from a top 10 university in the major, and a almost perfect graduate GPA by playing video games most nights instead of studying.  I walked ass backwards into a job with one of the top 4 firms in the field (as did 200 or so of my fellow graduates), making above the US median household income fresh out of school. Getting to that job, I hadn't had to put in anywhere near as much effort as my peers, with all of us making right around the same amount.

Note:  Full disclosure, this is coming from the son of a man who grew up in a rural prison town in Texas, barely passed high school, went through the military and through college's backdoor, and then went to town with a 3.8 undergrad GPA, 3.5+ grad GPA, and made enough to be one of the top 1% of income earners when I graduated high school.  Most of my extended family has "worked hard" 40 hours a week compared to his 60, partying through their teens and early adulthood, and make by far less. I may be biased.

[peterbound]

I think the sad thing is that a lot of the "work harder" comments don't necessarily apply to the present.  A lot of the work that goes in when we're young impacts our career prospects as adults (although factors other than work ethic of course go into it). It's not a simple work harder = better results, but all other things being equal, it is a positive relationship in the long-term.  

Once we've chosen our careers, outside of nepotism, Associate 1 and Associate 2, who are identical except for their work ethic, Associate 1 will be compensated in the long term better than Associate 2 the vast majority of the time.  

That's not to say the hard worker always comes out on top.  Relative to most of my university peers, I worked by far less, but because of the natural blessings of great information recall, an analytical mind that thought in a way where the field came naturally, and a bit of working "smarter" rather than harder (not cheating, just studying the right way), I skated to a cum laude degree from a top 10 university in the major, and a almost perfect graduate GPA by playing video games most nights instead of studying.  I walked ass backwards into a job with one of the top 4 firms in the field (as did 200 or so of my fellow graduates), making above the US median household income fresh out of school. Getting to that job, I hadn't had to put in anywhere near as much effort as my peers, with all of us making right around the same amount.

Note:  Full disclosure, this is coming from the son of a man who grew up in a rural prison town in Texas, barely passed high school, went through the military and through college's backdoor, and then went to town with a 3.8 undergrad GPA, 3.5+ grad GPA, and made enough to be one of the top 1% of income earners when I graduated high school.  Most of my extended family has "worked hard" 40 hours a week compared to his 60, partying through their teens and early adulthood, and make by far less. I may be biased.

So you're the privileged scions of fortune that WF was referring to?

How does it feel to be pigeon holed like that?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

So you're the privileged scions of fortune that WF was referring to?

 

How does it feel to be pigeon holed like that?

I'm sure it really stings. 

[Wise Fool]

I've heard/read some pretty big lies today, but that one takes the cake.  Self reflection my hard working friend, you should try it sometimes.  

Me?  I'm alright with the extremes.  I also know Trump worked pretty damn hard to get what he has.  That may not look like shuttling tables, but he put in the hours, and has his empire to prove it.  What you don't like is that he had a leg up to start with. I get that, but it's rooted in jealousy, and empty bitterness.  

You screaming at the top of your lungs about how unfair the whole thing is, is a little funny and a  little sad.  Seems to be your M.O. though, lots of words and little in the way of action.  

And assumptions?  Mein Gott!  You're full of them when directed towards me, yet when that cruel judgment is pointed at you, it becomes a big deal? 

You can keep saying I'm lying, that doesn't make it true. Do you have any evidence? No. Unless you're a psychic, you are absolutely not an authority -- at all -- on my own mental state or my reasons. I am, however.

Again, I brought up Trump because he is a perfect example of someone who has far, far more money than they "worked hard" for. There are millions of nameless people in poverty, who work very hard (harder than Trump ever fucking has, your empty "I know... he worked pretty damn hard" assumption notwithstanding) - and they are another example of this "money = hard work = virtue" paradigm being blatantly false. The extremes disprove the paradigm.  The greatly increased income inequality is not the result of an increased disparity in how hard people are working. You can address this or you can ignore it and just make accusations about how emotional I am.

My "M.O." is now "lots of words and little in the way of action?" OK, dude, I don't know how to tell you this, but.... this is an internet forum. Everything you and I are doing is lots of words and no action. Because this is a discussion forum. So yeah, that's my MO here... it's everybody's fucking MO.

Oh, I know. You meant outside of the context of this forum right? In my personal life -- which again you know fuck-all about -- you're assuming I'm lots of words, no actions. (How else, you must imagine, would I be poor?) Just like you assume my argument is rooted in emotions. Your assumptions about me and my character are completely unfounded, unwarranted, and of course infuriating (as they're designed to be). What they wind up showing is how much contempt for the poor the wealthy have. Why bother addressing what a poor person says? They're just jealous. They're lazy. They're screaming at the top of their lungs. They're sad. They're liars. They're fucking morons. And so forth.

Now might be I'm wrong, but one thing is damn sure: you're not going to be the one to convince me, if so. "Emotional" as I am, I am not persuaded by empty insults, empty assumptions and illogical arguments. Sorry.

[peterbound]

 

My "M.O." is now "lots of words and little in the way of action?" OK, dude, I don't know how to tell you this, but.... this is an internet forum. Everything you and I are doing is lots of words and no action. Because this is a discussion forum. So yeah, that's my MO here... it's everybody's fucking MO.

 

Actually, no, it's not.  I actually live up to the things I say.  I work hard, and I succeed.  You apparently 'work hard' and are still struggling.  I suggest you attempt to reassess what hard work really is, and try to put your energy in that direction, rather than discuss it on an internet forum.  You might have a different take on the whole thing after you put that into action.  

 

At the end of the day, we aren't going to get anywhere.  You want some stuff for free, and see hard word (or as some have said, smart work) as something that isn't valued in this world, so why even contribute anymore?  

[Starkess]

On the other hand, I am successful and I do not work hard by any stretch of the imagination.

[MerenthaClone]

Guys, its critical to peterbound's entire concept of himself that he "worked hard" and that nobody else did. You're not going to convince him that any other option exists, because he doesn't want it to.  I mean, when he sees a person who says that they worked hard and hasn't succeeded, the only answer he has is "sucks bro, maybe work harder??"  

[peterbound]

Guys, its critical to peterbound's entire concept of himself that he "worked hard" and that nobody else did. You're not going to convince him that any other option exists, because he doesn't want it to.  I mean, when he sees a person who says that they worked hard and hasn't succeeded, the only answer he has is "sucks bro, maybe work harder??"  

Not really.  Maybe 'work different'?  What I have a hard time with is the idea that you can't get ahead in america because you feel everything is stacked against you, and none of the decisions that are made in your head have caused your lack of success.  Or that just because someone is successful they haven't worked hard, that it's been handed to them.  Both those ideas have been expressed here. 

 

There are different options, but most of them come down to picking a path, applying yourself, and seeing it through.  All aspects of hard work. 

[peterbound]

On the other hand, I am successful and I do not work hard by any stretch of the imagination.

Some would argue that getting a degree, a commission, and leading sailors is plenty hard.  

While it might not seem hard to you, from the outside that looks pretty fucking difficult to me.  I think you're out now?  Maybe?  Not sure, but either way, that's a pretty awesome accomplishment, and I'm not going to be the one to take that away from you.