Boarders Writing A Novel: Volume 14 A Memory of Civility

[red snow]

6 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Do people actually have an EM signature?

Also:  spontaneous human combustion of someone cast down from heaven...  Really selling the fallen angel idea there!

I don't think so - it's probably very mild and unsynchronised small scale effects but it's something you could BS ok in SF. They can always clone some electric eel genes in though

[Spockydog]

15 hours ago, red snow said:

Just thought of another angle for decomposition. If the character really was a product of genetic engineering then it's plausible the engineer (or company/government) that made it would want to protect the investment. If they have a bunch of custom enymes DNAse, RNAse and proteinases that become active once the tissue is removed (by any of the methods we were discussing) then those enzymes become active and turn the tissue into mush so there's now way of them getting any useful information regarding the test subjects DNA and protein profile. I think it would be more sludge than dust - unless you had some kind of enzyme that was explosive/flammable (pretend they isolated the protein that causes spontaneous human combustion!)

Again, this is perfect.

11 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Do people actually have an EM signature?

Also:  spontaneous human combustion of someone cast down from heaven...  Really selling the fallen angel idea there!

I'm tempted by this combustion idea. But it might be a bit much. I dunno.

5 hours ago, red snow said:

I don't think so - it's probably very mild and unsynchronised small scale effects but it's something you could BS ok in SF. They can always clone some electric eel genes in though

Nice. 

I just want to say an enormous thank you to everyone who's helped with this. This scene has been a massive headache, but I reckon I've now got everything I need. Cheers!

 

[red snow]

35 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Again, this is perfect.

I'm tempted by this combustion idea. But it might be a bit much. I dunno.

Nice. 

I just want to say an enormous thank you to everyone who's helped with this. This scene has been a massive headache, but I reckon I've now got everything I need. Cheers!

 

Glad to help it's always fun to stretch my imaginative muscles instead of the factual ones

[C.T. Phipps]

One thing that's always bugged me is whether or not I should try and tinker with old manuscripts. I've learned a lot since my original writing days. So much so that I think my original stories are kind of crap. Now I'm torn between trying to "fix" them and just starting over again.

What do you guys think?

[C.T. Phipps]

Congratulations, Let's Get Kraken!

That sounds awesome!

[C.T. Phipps]

And my year finally finishes out with CTHULHU ARMAGEDDON's release. That's my post-apocalypse Weird Western book.

Wow, that took alot out of me.

Honestly, I love writing but it's harder doing the heavy lifting of advertising which is expected of independent authors these days.

[Spockydog]

6 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

And my year finally finishes out with CTHULHU ARMAGEDDON's release. That's my post-apocalypse Weird Western book.

Wow, that took alot out of me.

Honestly, I love writing but it's harder doing the heavy lifting of advertising which is expected of independent authors these days.

Don't sweat it, man. I'm glad you plugged this, because I like the look of it. In most of the eldritch tales I've read, the tentacled-ones usually get thwarted. Interested to see what the world looks like in the wake of their triumph.

 

[C.T. Phipps]

38 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Don't sweat it, man. I'm glad you plugged this, because I like the look of it. In most of the eldritch tales I've read, the tentacled-ones usually get thwarted. Interested to see what the world looks like in the wake of their triumph.

Yeah, that was actually the reason I wrote it. I was sitting down one day thinking about the various times in media Cthulhu's EXPYs have been stopped by the Justice League or Real Ghostbusters. I was thinking that while they get to win in short stories, it's rare we get to see them actually conquer the world.

So I decided to a combo of Cthulhu, Fallout, and the Weird West parts of the Dark Tower (which were the ones I liked).

I hope you enjoy.

[First of My Name]

I've finally gotten past my writer's block. I finished a chapter that I was stuck on for months and then wrote 12,000 words and finished several other problems I'd had in a week and a half. I'm really pleased with that, I haven't felt this motivated to write in ages. I've now finished 22 out of 83 planned chapters in the book (I'd guess they're about 10 pages average), and have rough outlines for the second and third book in the trilogy too. So I've got a long, long way to go, but I'm enjoying myself, so who cares?

Also, congratulations, Kraken and Phipps!

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, First of My Name said:

I've finally gotten past my writer's block. I finished a chapter that I was stuck on for months and then wrote 12,000 words and finished several other problems I'd had in a week and a half. I'm really pleased with that, I haven't felt this motivated to write in ages. I've now finished 22 out of 83 planned chapters in the book (I'd guess they're about 10 pages average), and have rough outlines for the second and third book in the trilogy too. So I've got a long, long way to go, but I'm enjoying myself, so who cares?

Also, congratulations, Kraken and Phipps!

Congratulations to you too!

[C.T. Phipps]

22 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I'd say take the best ideas from your old work and incorporate them into the stuff you're writing now. You certainly have a wide enough diversity for it among the things you have coming out over the next few years.

Very good advice. Honestly, I think I overdid it. Better to work on a smaller group of good ideas than a lot of them. At least most of those series aren't ongoing.

OOoph.

[SpaceChampion]

I think it's probably best not to force it.  If you can leave an idea on the table, then leave it.  If you can't leave it, you'll be compelled to use it.  You'll write faster and better about those ideas that compel you.

[First of My Name]

Thanks, Phipps.

20 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I'd say take the best ideas from your old work and incorporate them into the stuff you're writing now. You certainly have a wide enough diversity for it among the things you have coming out over the next few years.

I try to do this too. I wrote a lot of pretty crappy stuff some years back and left most of it in to gather dust in a USB stick, but I realized that some of the characters I came up with then would fit perfectly in what I'm writing now. I might change some of the names though, I really wasn't inventive on that front in those days. I try to put a lot of thought into them now.

[First of My Name]

Question:
I've written a chapter in which three characters, part of a larger group, are captured by soldiers and tortured for information on the whereabouts of the others. These four are an adult women, a 17-year-old boy and a 16-year-old boy. I'm wondering how much I should show, particularly with the last character. Right now it looks like this:
-Torture of the boy: he says nothing, ends with minor but painful injuries
-The torturer's report about this to her CO in italics
-Torture of the woman: she says nothing, ends with her left hand being cut off with an axe, but only the downward arc of the axe and her scream are described
-The torturer's report about this to her CO in italics, she's planning to take the other hand if the woman doesn't confess soon
-The girl sees the woman with the missing hand when is escorted to the torturer, ends with the torturer beginning her interrogation
-The torturer's report about this to her CO in italics, revealing what happened: she threatened to take the girl's eye, and the terrified girl confessed everything she knows. Then the torturer took the eye anyway and threatened to do it again to the other eye to make sure truly doesn't know anything else.
-Last scene; The girl lies on the floor of her cell, mental state is described and then she weeps out of only one eye.

Is this too graphic? Not graphic enough? Are those poor or perfect moments to end scenes with? I'm asking because torture in itself is controversial enough, and one of the subjects is an underage girl (before you ask; yes, it's necessary to her storyline).
Any advice on this would be great.

[polishgenius]

That surely depends on the tone of the story you're trying to tell and the audience you're aiming at? And also on how you actually describe it, of course. The last scene seems like it would hit quite hard even from your brief summation. But it's not something that would seem out of the question in modern fantasy in general.

I think I see what you're aiming at with the torturer's reports, but you're going to have to play it very carefully to not have those disrupt the tension since they'll presumably be in much drier language than the chapters proper (also, if the rest of the story doesn't involve similar tricks employing it once here could stick out like a sore thumb, so careful there too).

I would say, and do bear in mind that I am not actually a torturer so I don't really know, but your torturer doesn't seem that competent? I mean, chopping a hand off and then planning to go for the other hand immediately is wasting ten whole fingers of escalating mental pressure. And taking the girls' eye and then asking for more information seems like it would make her less likely to give it or be trustworthy, seeing as at that point she would have no reason to believe the other eye won't also be taken. Is that deliberate?

[First of My Name]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

That surely depends on the tone of the story you're trying to tell and the audience you're aiming at? And also on how you actually describe it, of course. The last scene seems like it would hit quite hard even from your brief summation. But it's not something that would seem out of the question in modern fantasy in general.

I think I see what you're aiming at with the torturer's reports, but you're going to have to play it very carefully to not have those disrupt the tension since they'll presumably be in much drier language than the chapters proper (also, if the rest of the story doesn't involve similar tricks employing it once here could stick out like a sore thumb, so careful there too).

I would say, and do bear in mind that I am not actually a torturer so I don't really know, but your torturer doesn't seem that competent? I mean, chopping a hand off and then planning to go for the other hand immediately is wasting ten whole fingers of escalating mental pressure. And taking the girls' eye and then asking for more information seems like it would make her less likely to give it or be trustworthy, seeing as at that point she would have no reason to believe the other eye won't also be taken. Is that deliberate?

I didn't really have a tone and audience in mind, I just wanted each scene to be the best I could make it. But I think this would be the second or third most brutal chapter in the book. (One of the main characters, the boy who was tortured, murders four unarmed men in cold blood, 'on-screen' this time, and goes on to strangle his estranged mother. He's got some issues). 

The reports come in the form of plain dialogue, since she reports to him directly after each interrogation. The intention was to avoid gratuitious violence while still maintaining the shock of it. I think/hope I've avoided the dry tone by keeping them brief and making the personalities of the torturer and the general she reports to bleed through. This was one bit:
General: You took the eye of a 16-year-old girl?
Torturer: I followed your orders. You wanted the information as quickly as possible.
General: I didn't know how old she was...
Torturer: Some children are born blind. I don't see you shedding tears over them.
General: The difference is that we don't have a say in that matter. This is different. The next time you encounter an underage subject, you come to me personally and ask for permission to do anything. We are not monsters.
(Then I cut to the girl clutching the bandage over her empty socket. The words general and torturer don't appear in front the sentences in the book of course). I did worry about it sticking out, because right now I dont plan on having else occur in italics. But I don't know, it's still dialogue.

Good point. The torturer in question is a sadist who just goes for the sore spot immediately, so it fits her personality, but I have to make sure she doesn't come across as incompetent or she won't seem threatening. I'm not a torturer either, so this is new to me too  
Also, the hand is something that occurs because of what happens in the scene itself, not a move the torturer planned beforehand. Pun not intended.

Thanks.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 24/08/2016 at 2:45 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

As far as torture goes:

• From a literary angle, the rules of the horror genre apply - less is more. Hint at what the torture involves, but don't dwell lovingly on every little moment. Dwell on the mental, and leave the physical to the imagination.
• From an in-story angle, torture is decidedly ineffective at actually getting accurate information out of people, since the victim will say anything to make it stop. What you want is an element of the physical, combined with an element of the mental. Good cop, bad cop games, sleep deprivation, that sort of thing.

[First of My Name]

14 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

As far as torture goes:

• From a literary angle, the rules of the horror genre apply - less is more. Hint at what the torture involves, but don't dwell lovingly on every little moment. Dwell on the mental, and leave the physical to the imagination.
• From an in-story angle, torture is decidedly ineffective at actually getting accurate information out of people, since the victim will say anything to make it stop. What you want is an element of the physical, combined with an element of the mental. Good cop, bad cop games, sleep deprivation, that sort of thing.

Okay, thanks.

7 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I think that, like the "show don't tell" rule, a lot of new writers take "less is more" as an ironclad law, rather than as a type of situation-specific wisdom. Generally, it's true that letting the audience imagine what is going on will make them far more uneasy than what you, as a writer, could come up with. But if your goal is to shock, horrify, or disgust the audience, either by the actions of a protagonist or by what's happening to them, then maybe it can be a good idea show a bit more. Instead of seeing the ax come down and the sound of screaming, for example, maybe the torture takes a few swings to hack through the bone. Maybe she has to stop and catch her breath at one point before taking the hand all the way off.

A great example of both methods is a pair of scenes from The Walking Dead comics,

There is an early scene where a villain captures several main characters and spends an extended period of time raping and torturing one of them. He's seen later talking about what he did, and you hear part of it at one point, and are able to witness the immediate aftermath, but the rape and torture itself is never shown on panel. Later on, the woman that this happened to escapes, captures the man who was hurting her, and tortures and mutilates him almost to death. This time the reader sees everything that happens in excruciating detail.

Both scenes were horrific and very difficult to read, but for different reasons. When reading the first one, you almost don't want to imagine what's happening, but you can't help but do so anyway. In the second you want to root for the woman taking her revenge, but seeing it happen is disturbing and designed to make the reader question both the actions of the protagonist, and of their own feelings about the situation.

Horrifying or disgusting the readers isn't a priority in this scene, but it was intended to shock, yes. I think this can be accomplished without showing everythng though; you see the fallout of the tortures, like in the example you gave.
(Btw, I'm guessing the characters in question are the Governor and Michonne? I've only seen the show.)

I was planning to show all the gnarly things the protagonists do, so that fits with what you're suggesting I think. Deciding what to show and what to leave up to the reader's imagination is something that's probably best decided on a case-by-case basis, but it's the same difference as not showing the torture of Theon Greyjoy but showing Arya's first kill; the nature of these scenes support those decisions. I hope and think it's the same with what I have and haven't decided to show.  (For example, the group the prisoners belongs to rescues them later on, and upon seeing their injuries brutally murder the torturer, which will be shown).

Thanks.

 

[C.T. Phipps]

I'm okay with any torture scenes which:

1. Don't feel like the author is making it awesome.

2. Don't get valuable intel.

3. Are just a showing of what a barbaric pointless practice of sadists it is.