R+L=J v.157

[The Wolves]

21 minutes ago, Rob Storm said:

Relatively new here and would love some opinions on Ned/Lyanna's promise, I have few questions:

If R+L=J is correct then Lyanna likely filled Ned in a little regarding tPtwP or at least some of Jon's significance and danger he is in. 

Is Ned breaking Lyanna's promise simply by allowing Jon to go to the Wall?  Does he feel he protected Jon as long as he could?  He is very aware that the Wall is dangerous and Winter is in fact Coming (even heard the questionable tales from the Nights Watch deserter to make the Wall seem more dangerous even than normal).  Seems like this is a poor way to protect his nephew and tPtwP if that was in fact Lyanna's dying wish.

 

Side question:  do we believe that Ned or Lyanna/Rhaegar gave Jon the name Jon?  Could be a name Rhaegar wanted to use to honor his best friend Connington?  Not a traditional Stark name, but that could be because Ned doesn't want a "bastard" to have a Stark name like Brandon or Rickard.  

To answer your side question it was Ned that named Jon GRRM confirmed that. 

And Jon is a Stark name also but people speculate which I agree with that Ned named Jon in honor of Jon Arryn. 

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

Relatively new here and would love some opinions on Ned/Lyanna's promise, I have few questions:

If R+L=J is correct then Lyanna likely filled Ned in a little regarding tPtwP or at least some of Jon's significance and danger he is in. 

Is Ned breaking Lyanna's promise simply by allowing Jon to go to the Wall?  Does he feel he protected Jon as long as he could?  He is very aware that the Wall is dangerous and Winter is in fact Coming (even heard the questionable tales from the Nights Watch deserter to make the Wall seem more dangerous even than normal).  Seems like this is a poor way to protect his nephew and tPtwP if that was in fact Lyanna's dying wish.

 

Side question:  do we believe that Ned or Lyanna/Rhaegar gave Jon the name Jon?  Could be a name Rhaegar wanted to use to honor his best friend Connington?  Not a traditional Stark name, but that could be because Ned doesn't want a "bastard" to have a Stark name like Brandon or Rickard.  

First off, welcome to the boards! Keep reading and keep contributing.

I'll add a couple of thoughts to your questions. When Ned thinks back to his promise to Lyanna he uses the plural "promises" not the singular. So we know there is more than one promise Ned made to her and he thinks of the price he paid to keep them. We don't know what those promises were, but many of us guess they centered around keeping Jon safe and hidden away from those she thought might harm him. The example of what just happened to Rhaegar's and Elia's children may well have loomed large in her fears for Jon. We also know she was dying with a fever and blood loss, so it is likely this isn't a long conversation between siblings. Only the most important plea to Ned is going to be going through her head as she dies. Something like "Promise me, Ned, to take him and raise him as yours. Promise me never to let Robert or anyone else harm my child." I don't think prophecies are likely to have entered into the conversation. Or whether or not she married Rhaegar. Or a host of other topics that would be important for Ned to know, but for which there just isn't time to communicate.  My guess.

For Ned those promises, if those are the ones he made, are ones he kept. He raised Jon as his son, and he protected him from all who would do him harm, especially from those who would do him harm if they knew he was Rhaegar's child.

We just disagree about Ned's view of the Wall. For Ned the Wall is an ancient tradition and monument to the North, but he hasn't a clue the Others are returning. The wildlings are the greatest threat coming from the North Ned knows of when he sends Jon north under Benjen's protection. His fear is to keep Jon as far away from the Lannisters, and from Robert, as he can. He does so. It is an open question if he really wants Benjen to allow Jon to join the watch, but we know Ned doesn't have the same fears for Jon's safety while he is in Benjen's company.

To your side question, Martin tells us Ned named Jon, so it is likely he is named after Jon Arryn. Was there another name Lyanna or Rhaegar gave him? We don't know, but if Rhaegar wanted him named after his best friend it would have been "Arthur" not "Jon." My guess though is that because Rhaegar was driven in part by prophecy, at least in the role he thought his children would play, he thought he would have a second "Visenya" on his hands rather than a son.

As already has been pointed out, Jon is a name used by the Starks in the past, how many "Jon Starks" there were before Jon Snow, we don't know, but it not an unusual name in the north.

Once again, welcome.

 

[Jon Weirgaryen]

@Rob Storm: Your questions have been discussed in previous threads. I like to pose a question in return: what were Ned's choices?

I am more than uncertain at what 'prophecy rubbish' Lyanna might have told Ned (who does not so much believe in omens and signs, unlike Cat who does). Or if Ned took any of that to heart. But if he did, that might have gone both ways. Have Jon to train in the Night's Watch seems to be just the thing to fulfil the prophecy.

Jon was named by Ned for his fosterfather Jon Arryn. Might have been a wink to Rhaegar's best friend Jon Connington as well, so Lyanna might not have been unhappy with that, if she was ever asked her opinion. Also, there have been one or two winter kings who also were great reformers named Jon.

Jon Snow was probably named a Targaryen name, and fans have made efforts to discover if his name is hidden in the undercurrents of the book.

We learn that another learned friend and familiar of Rhaegar's was Aemon Targaryen, who served in Castle Black as the Maester. In AGoT 70 Jon IX our hero Jon flees Castle Black at night riding to join up with the cause of his brother Robb Stark, the King in the North. He keeps thinking about his decision all the while:

Quote

But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen.

And we know how that ends: He returns to the Night's Watch, so he may well be Aemon Targaryen.

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

3 hours ago, Jon Weirgaryen said:

@Rob Storm: Your questions have been discussed in previous threads. I like to pose a question in return: what were Ned's choices?

I am more than uncertain at what 'prophecy rubbish' Lyanna might have told Ned (who does not so much believe in omens and signs, unlike Cat who does). Or if Ned took any of that to heart. But if he did, that might have gone both ways. Have Jon to train in the Night's Watch seems to be just the thing to fulfil the prophecy.

Jon was named by Ned for his fosterfather Jon Arryn. Might have been a wink to Rhaegar's best friend Jon Connington as well, so Lyanna might not have been unhappy with that, if she was ever asked her opinion. Also, there have been one or two winter kings who also were great reformers named Jon.

Jon Snow was probably named a Targaryen name, and fans have made efforts to discover if his name is hidden in the undercurrents of the book.

We learn that another learned friend and familiar of Rhaegar's was Aemon Targaryen, who served in Castle Black as the Maester. In AGoT 70 Jon IX our hero Jon flees Castle Black at night riding to join up with the cause of his brother Robb Stark, the King in the North. He keeps thinking about his decision all the while:

And we know how that ends: He returns to the Night's Watch, so he may well be Aemon Targaryen.

 

As you note, there has been much speculation on what Jon's Targ name was to have been. A number of people have posited that Rhaegar was trying to recreate the three heads of Aegon I and his sisters -- and thus Jon's name would have been a male version of Visenya (like Viserys). I disagree -- for a variety of reasons -- and find the argument more persuasive (and more satisfying from a literary point of view) that his Targ name that Rhaegar and Lyanna intended to give him would have been Aemon. In addition to the clues you note, I believe as a boy Jon also liked to pretend to be Aemon the Dragonknight.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I believe as a boy Jon also liked to pretend to be Aemon the Dragonknight.

That's right, it is in ASoS 79 Jon XII:

Quote

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

 

[Balerion's Whiskers]

We don't know what promises that Ned made to Lyanna, but there was more than one. Most likely 'raise him as your own' and 'keep him safe from those who would want to do him harm' (Robert and Tywin), but we don't know for sure. As others pointed out, Ned took a dim view of prophecies and omens, so I doubt that if the PtwP was mentioned, he took it seriously. He didn't seem to take the deserter's stories seriously either, so the Wall with Benjen's guidance would have been safer than the vipers' nest of Kings Landing. As dim as Ned was politically, he knew that taken Jon to KL would have been extremely dangerous. Given his options, the Wall was his best choice. I also suspect that Benjen knew who he was and planned to tell him before he took his vows. I don't have any textural evidence for that other than Benjen told him that they would speak when he returned from the ranging (before he took his vows)....and he never did. It could have been a million things he wanted to speak to him about, so it is very thin at best.

I do not believe that Rhaegar named Jon, Jon. As GRRM said, Ned named him.... he very well couldn't bring a child he was claiming back to Winterfell with a Targaryen name, could he? He named him for Jon Arryn (after all, Robb was named for Robert)

Connington seemed more of a legend in his own mind than in Rhaegar's.

I'm in the Aemon camp as far as his parent-given name goes.

[purple-eyes]

Rhaegar obviously had no idea Jon is son or daughter. Rhaegar left and died before Jon was born.

He is more likely expecting a daughter, though.

So what will be the name of daughter? Visenya?

I felt like maybe he did not prepare a name for boy since he is so obsessed with his three head prophecy.

He named Rhaenys, Aegon, then next one seems to be natural to be a daughter called Visenya.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

9 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Rhaegar obviously had no idea Jon is son or daughter. Rhaegar left and died before Jon was born.

He is more likely expecting a daughter, though.

So what will be the name of daughter? Visenya?

I felt like maybe he did not prepare a name for boy since he is so obsessed with his three head prophecy.

He named Rhaenys, Aegon, then next one seems to be natural to be a daughter called Visenya.

If that were the case, Rhaenys would have been named Visenya, since Visenya was the oldest. If we was trying to recreate the original 3 heads, why name his firstborn daughter after the last born daughter?

I suspect that Rhaegar left naming instructions with Lya whether the baby was a male or female. He does not seem the type to have left something that important undone.

We won't know for sure until GRRM decides to tell us and I'm fine with it either way. It is just my opinion that Rhaegar had another plan.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

If that were the case, Rhaenys would have been named Visenya, since Visenya was the oldest. If we was trying to recreate the original 3 heads, why name his firstborn daughter after the last born daughter?

I suspect that Rhaegar left naming instructions with Lya whether the baby was a male or female. He does not seem the type to have left something that important undone.

We won't know for sure until GRRM decides to tell us and I'm fine with it either way. It is just my opinion that Rhaegar had another plan.

No, actually I think rhaegar thought he will defeat the rebellion quickly and returned to lyanna to see the birth of baby. 

He did not expect he will die and never have chance to be back or witness the baby. 

That is why I thought he may not have a firm plan for baby's name. Maybe he discussed with lyanna for some options, but nothing firm. 

You see, He only named aegon after aegon was born. And he only told Elia about this name after birth of aegon too. 

It looks like people tended to name their child after the birth in this universe, maybe by his or her look or something like that. At least rhaegar did so. 

About name of three heads, in fact, when rhaenys was born, rhaegar thought himself the promised prince. At that moment, we have rhaegar, viserys (male version of visenya), so it sound natural to name this princess as rhaenys. Maybe rhaegar decided himself, viserys and rhaenys are three heads. 

 

[Jon Weirgaryen]

41 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Maybe rhaegar decided himself, viserys and rhaenys are three heads. 

Too bad. No R+L=J in that case.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

If that were the case, Rhaenys would have been named Visenya, since Visenya was the oldest. If we was trying to recreate the original 3 heads, why name his firstborn daughter after the last born daughter?

Except up until the night Aegon is conceived we know Rhaegar thought he himself was the Prince Who Was Promised, so Rhaenys had already been born and named before Rhaegar changed his mind about his children's role in the prophecy. It is only after Aegon is born that we hear Rhaegar speak of the need for one more child and his use of the three-headed dragon in relation to his kids. Given his new understanding of the prophecy and the role all three of his children had to play in it Visenya is a good bet for what Rhaegar thought would be the name of his third child.

Did he have a back up plan in case his third child was a son? We don't know. If he did, I doubt it was "Jon."

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Except up until the night Aegon is conceived we know Rhaegar thought he himself was the Prince Who Was Promised, so Rhaenys had already been born and named before Rhaegar changed his mind about his children's role in the prophecy. It is only after Aegon is born that we hear Rhaegar speak of the need for one more child and his use of the three-headed dragon in relation to his kids. Given his new understanding of the prophecy and the role all three of his children had to play in it Visenya is a good bet for what Rhaegar thought would be the name of his third child.

Did he have a back up plan in case his third child was a son? We don't know. If he did, I doubt it was "Jon."

I used to think and argue in the same way (Visenya if the child was female, another Viserys if it was male), but there are reasons why this is less likely now:

1. We learned from Kevan that Rhaegar wanted 'sons', plural, not another daughter, making it unlikely that he hoped/thought/wanted another daughter, and had a female name name in mind. This suggests that the Rhaegar may have thought his own brother Viserys and his son Aegon were the first two dragon heads, with Aegon being the promised prince (due to the comet sign). The third head would then have been male, too, but Rhaenys was just an insignificant girl.

2. TWoIaF and the Targaryen family tree revealed that Rhaenys/Rhaena was a very popular Targaryen name throughout the ages. We also know that Queen Rhaenys - after whom most of the Rhaenys'/Rhaenas are named - is the beloved ancestor of the entire Targaryen dynasty, while Visenya may have been the murderer of the forefather of the entire Targaryen line, Aenys I. In that sense it is very unlikely that Visenya was a name that Rhaegar would have used - the only other Visenya we know is Rhaenyra's stillborn daughter and she intended to send a message to her enemies by choosing that name. It is unlikely she would have chosen that name had she been a healthy girl.

3. Viserys seems to have originated as a new version of the name Visenya - Aenys' first three children seemed to be named after Rhaenys (Rhaena), the Conqueror (Aegon), and Visenya (Viserys). Viserys I would later have received that name to honor Jaehaerys' brother who suffered such an gruesome death, not to honor Visenya. It is especially striking in that regard that a new 'female version' of the name 'Viserys' - Viserra - was created during the reign of Jaehaerys I.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

27 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I used to think and argue in the same way (Visenya if the child was female, another Viserys if it was male), but there are reasons why this is less likely now:

1. We learned from Kevan that Rhaegar wanted 'sons', plural, not another daughter, making it unlikely that he hoped/thought/wanted another daughter, and had a female name name in mind. This suggests that the Rhaegar may have thought his own brother Viserys and his son Aegon were the first two dragon heads, with Aegon being the promised prince (due to the comet sign). The third head would then have been male, too, but Rhaenys was just an insignificant girl.

2. TWoIaF and the Targaryen family tree revealed that Rhaenys/Rhaena was a very popular Targaryen name throughout the ages. We also know that Queen Rhaenys - after whom most of the Rhaenys'/Rhaenas are named - is the beloved ancestor of the entire Targaryen dynasty, while Visenya may have been the murderer of the forefather of the entire Targaryen line, Aenys I. In that sense it is very unlikely that Visenya was a name that Rhaegar would have used - the only other Visenya we know is Rhaenyra's stillborn daughter and she intended to send a message to her enemies by choosing that name. It is unlikely she would have chosen that name had she been a healthy girl.

3. Viserys seems to have originated as a male version of the name Visenya - Aenys' first three children seemed to be named after Rhaenys (Rhaena), the Conqueror (Aegon), and Visenya (Viserys). Viserys I would later have received that name to honor Jaehaerys' brother who suffered such an gruesome death, not to honor Visenya. It is especially striking in that regard that a new 'male version' of the name 'Viserys' - Viserra - was created during the reign of Jaehaerys I.

 

I agree.....^^^^

GRRM may surprise us and 'pull a Visenya/Viserys/Viserra out of the hat' so to speak, but in my opinion, evidence is mounting that 'Jon's' name is something else.

[UnmaskedLurker]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I used to think and argue in the same way (Visenya if the child was female, another Viserys if it was male), but there are reasons why this is less likely now:

1. We learned from Kevan that Rhaegar wanted 'sons', plural, not another daughter, making it unlikely that he hoped/thought/wanted another daughter, and had a female name name in mind. This suggests that the Rhaegar may have thought his own brother Viserys and his son Aegon were the first two dragon heads, with Aegon being the promised prince (due to the comet sign). The third head would then have been male, too, but Rhaenys was just an insignificant girl.

2. TWoIaF and the Targaryen family tree revealed that Rhaenys/Rhaena was a very popular Targaryen name throughout the ages. We also know that Queen Rhaenys - after whom most of the Rhaenys'/Rhaenas are named - is the beloved ancestor of the entire Targaryen dynasty, while Visenya may have been the murderer of the forefather of the entire Targaryen line, Aenys I. In that sense it is very unlikely that Visenya was a name that Rhaegar would have used - the only other Visenya we know is Rhaenyra's stillborn daughter and she intended to send a message to her enemies by choosing that name. It is unlikely she would have chosen that name had she been a healthy girl.

3. Viserys seems to have originated as a new version of the name Visenya - Aenys' first three children seemed to be named after Rhaenys (Rhaena), the Conqueror (Aegon), and Visenya (Viserys). Viserys I would later have received that name to honor Jaehaerys' brother who suffered such an gruesome death, not to honor Visenya. It is especially striking in that regard that a new 'female version' of the name 'Viserys' - Viserra - was created during the reign of Jaehaerys I.

I agree with all you wrote except that Rhaegar would have thought Viserys rather than Rhaenys was a head of the dragon. Rhaegar might have wanted sons (an heir and a spare), but that does not mean he considered Viserys more likely to be a head than Rhaenys. If Viserys could be a head -- why not Rhaegar himself-- Aegon as TPTWP and Rhaegar and Viserys as the other two? But we know he did not believe that as he said -- there must be one more, and in that case all three would already exist. I see no evidence that he thought Viserys might be a head of the dragon. Must more logical is that he thought that if he was not TPTWP -- but rather Aegon was -- then two other children would be the other two heads of the dragon. And as he said there must be one more and not two more -- Rhaenys is the most logical choice for the other existing head of the dragon.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I used to think and argue in the same way (Visenya if the child was female, another Viserys if it was male), but there are reasons why this is less likely now:

1. We learned from Kevan that Rhaegar wanted 'sons', plural, not another daughter, making it unlikely that he hoped/thought/wanted another daughter, and had a female name name in mind. This suggests that the Rhaegar may have thought his own brother Viserys and his son Aegon were the first two dragon heads, with Aegon being the promised prince (due to the comet sign). The third head would then have been male, too, but Rhaenys was just an insignificant girl.

You mean this?

Quote

If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes ... and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. (ADwD 952)

Kevan dates his own information by tying it to when Aerys turns Tywin down in his request for Cersei to marry Rhaegar. If he ever had any information about Rhaegar's preference of sons over daughters, it is from well before Rhaegar changes his mind about his own role as the Prince Who Was Promised, and before we know he saw the fulfillment of that prophecy in Aegon as one of the heads of the dragon that has three heads. The reference we see in Dany's vision in the HotU is clearly to Aegon and his sisters for who the sigil is designed, NOT for Aegon and his uncle and maybe another Targaryen cousin. The idea that Rhaegar thought Viserys was one of the heads of the dragon doesn't hold water. Nor does Kevan's outdated and unreliable thoughts about Rhaegar's wants. Remember also that the Lannister's excepting Jaime leave the court with the resignation of Tywin as Hand. We have no reason to believe anything about Kevan says concerning what Rhaegar thought or wanted during this critical period.

Now, perhaps you have information I don't have that puts Kevan into Rhaegar's inner circle after Tywin leaves, but I recall nothing that suggests that remotely. It seems evident Kevan is only repeating something he had heard about the prince when the twelve year old Cersei was suggested as a wife for seventeen year old Rhaegar. Was Kevan ever in King's Landing or Dragonstone from the time of Harrenhal to the time of Rhaegar's disappearance with Lyanna? I don't think we have anything that even hints at that. Nor is there reason to believe he ever talked to Rhaegar about prophecy.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

2. TWoIaF and the Targaryen family tree revealed that Rhaenys/Rhaena was a very popular Targaryen name throughout the ages. We also know that Queen Rhaenys - after whom most of the Rhaenys'/Rhaenas are named - is the beloved ancestor of the entire Targaryen dynasty, while Visenya may have been the murderer of the forefather of the entire Targaryen line, Aenys I. In that sense it is very unlikely that Visenya was a name that Rhaegar would have used - the only other Visenya we know is Rhaenyra's stillborn daughter and she intended to send a message to her enemies by choosing that name. It is unlikely she would have chosen that name had she been a healthy girl.

Rhaenys was indeed a popular name in the Targaryen linage. This alone would explain the naming of Rhaegar's daughter, but once we find out that Rhaegar has changed his mind about the role of his children in fulfilling prophecy then the naming takes on a different context than just using a popular name or not using an unpopular name from the past. 

It is clear, I think, that the meaning for Rhaegar's statement "the dragon has three-heads" is in reference to having another child after Aegon is born. It is the sigil of his House that comes from and references Aegon and his sisters. For whatever reason, Rhaegar has it in his head, that he has to recreate Aegon and his sisters in his own children. Your view that the prophecy may refer to other Targaryens than his children may well be true, but Rhaegar doesn't think so by the time of Aegon's birth. So, Visenya, as unpopular as the name may have been makes a lot of sense for what he would have named his third child.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

3. Viserys seems to have originated as a new version of the name Visenya - Aenys' first three children seemed to be named after Rhaenys (Rhaena), the Conqueror (Aegon), and Visenya (Viserys). Viserys I would later have received that name to honor Jaehaerys' brother who suffered such an gruesome death, not to honor Visenya. It is especially striking in that regard that a new 'female version' of the name 'Viserys' - Viserra - was created during the reign of Jaehaerys I.

Again, if it was just a case of what name any Targaryen other than Rhaegar would likely give to his children, then I would agree. It is not, and I do not. Rhaegar's choice of "Aegon" for his son's name combined with his remarks in Dany's vision shows the profound influence of prophecy in Rhaegar's view of his children. This has nothing to do with whether or not a name was popular, but rather the special role of Aegon and his sister and the new special role Rhaegar's children will play according to his reading of prophecy at the time.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I agree with all you wrote except that Rhaegar would have thought Viserys rather than Rhaenys was a head of the dragon. Rhaegar might have wanted sons (an heir and a spare), but that does not mean he considered Viserys more likely to be a head than Rhaenys. If Viserys could be a head -- why not Rhaegar himself-- Aegon as TPTWP and Rhaegar and Viserys as the other two? But we know he did not believe that as he said -- there must be one more, and in that case all three would already exist. I see no evidence that he thought Viserys might be a head of the dragon. Must more logical is that he thought that if he was not TPTWP -- but rather Aegon was -- then two other children would be the other two heads of the dragon. And as he said there must be one more and not two more -- Rhaenys is the most logical choice for the other existing head of the dragon.

I'm not really insisting on Rhaegar thinking Viserys was one of the head. All I'm saying is that Viserys is a much better candidate because he isn't female. By that time in their history Targaryen women had no power whatsoever. They were the property of their fathers and brothers who either married them within in the family or to some nobleman they wanted to make an alliance with (Aegon V).

Targaryen women weren't expected to fulfill any leadership roles beside being the wife of the king (which means to look good, shut your mouth, and produce lots of children), and thus it is very unlikely that anyone at Aerys' court - neither Aerys himself, nor Rhaella or Rhaegar ever even considered the possibility that women might be important in the whole prophecy thing (aside from the fact, of course, that the promised prince would come forth from the line of Aerys and Rhaella).

There isn't any textual evidence that Rhaegar thinks the first two dragon heads are his children. That is a common misconception but it is actually an interpretation of the text, it is not actually written there. Rhaegar wants 'one more', which most likely means another son. One is inclined to believe that the first one, aside from Aegon, could be Rhaenys but it is just as likely he is talking about himself or Viserys.

I have no problem with the possibility that Rhaegar may have thought he was a dragon head. In fact, that could make sense. It was the comet that made him believe his second child by Elia could be the promised prince, and Aegon's birth confirmed it for him, but no longer believing he himself wasn't the promised prince doesn't mean he thought he wasn't important in all that prophecy business.

A core missing piece in the equation still is the question what led Rhaegar to believe that he wasn't the promised prince. My guess is his parents' inability to produce more sons. If the promised prince prophecy includes references to a 'trinity of saviors' (that is the three dragon heads) - and such references have to come from somewhere else Rhaegar's talk wouldn't make any sense - then Rhaegar could still think he was a vital part of all that as a son of Aerys and Rhaella.

But if Rhaegar came to the conclusion that the promised prince was to be looked for in the next generation for some reason then Viserys would make much more sense considering that he is much closer in age to Aegon. If Rhaenys was considered as a dragon head then there it would be strange indeed why Rhaegar would believe another head was still needed - Viserys, Rhaenys, and Aegon were three already, after all.

There is no hint or indication we have to believe that Rhaegar believed the three dragon heads all had to have his blood. Especially not in light of the fact that Ghost's prophecy spoke of Aerys and Rhaella's line, not the line of Aerys and Rhaella's son.

SFDanny,

we actually don't know when exactly Rhaegar changed his mind on his role of the promised prince. That is still a mystery to us. My best approximation is that he must have long buried the belief that he was the One, though, by the time of Aegon's conception. Else he wouldn't have interpreted the comet as a divine sign heralding the coming of the promised prince. If he had been firm in his belief by this point his mind wouldn't have connected the comet to Aegon but to himself (or he would have completely ignored it).

In that sense it is easily possible that Kevan's information/belief that Rhaegar wanted sons comes from the last years of Tywin's Handship during the early years of Rhaegar's marriage. He may already have believed that he wasn't the One but thought that he had to produce sons to bring forth the promised prince and his two companions if his parents couldn't do it.

As to the Targaryen sigil:

That is a tricky thing. Gyldayn tells us the long-established story of the genesis of the arms as symbolic depictions of the Conqueror and his sister-wives. But they, in turn, have nothing to do with the promised prince or those three dragon heads. Why should Rhaegar believe that the heraldic banner of his house should have anything to do with a much older prophecy? [Granted, he could have all sorts of strange esoteric beliefs but lets just assume that's not the case...]

We know the Targaryen version of the promised prince prophecy is much older and could thus, theoretically, have influenced Aegon's decision to conquer Westeros in the first place (that is entirely likely because the historians don't have a real answer for that).

If we assume that this is the case then there is also a pretty good chance that ancient prophecies talking about 'a dragon with three heads' or 'a three-headed dragon' symbolizing a Targaryen-blooded savior and his two companions may have influenced the genesis of the Targaryen banner. That would even be more likely if Aegon and his sisters had originally believed (and perhaps still during the time of the Conquest) that Aegon was the promised prince and Visenya and Rhaenys the other dragon heads.

Their arms would then be a nod to that belief, symbolizing them both as rulers of Westeros as well as in their roles as saviors.

And there is really a pretty subtle hint to all that in TWoIaF. Yandel tells us that Aegon's favorite place remained Dragonstone throughout his entire life, the place where he was born. I think it is pretty much consensus that most people in-universe believe that Dragonstone is indeed the place where the savior is born - at least that guy who is supposed to wake dragons from stone and stuff (which she has already done).

Back in the days of the Conqueror Targaryen women still played important roles and, most importantly, still were dragonriders (which most likely was also considered a very important criteria for being the promised prince and/or one of his companions). In Aemon's and Rhaegar's days it is unthinkable that women could play a role in all that.

And, as I've said above, it is still open to interpretation whether Rhaegar talks about his children or the three dragon heads when talking about having another child. He could just as easily believe he was only destined to bring forth two of the three dragon heads (Aegon and the third head) with his parents already producing the first one (either he himself or Viserys). There is no reason to drag Rhaenys into all this. It is very tempting to do this, and I did so myself in the past. I'd be more open to that idea/possibility if Aemon didn't sell us the idea of a promised princess as such a revolutionary idea, and if Rhaenys had also been mentioned or directly alluded to during the vision. But she is not. All we can say is that there must have been another 'first dragon head' aside from Aegon or else Rhaegar wouldn't have wanted to produce only the third head. But that's really it.

But aside from all that: Even if Aegon's birth convinced Rhaegar that he had to try to recreate Aegon and his sisters - he had already failed at that by not naming his first daughter Visenya. She was the elder, after all, and so Rhaegar's recreation of the founders of the dynasty would be defective from the start. Perhaps he thought he would create mirrored image of the siblings with the elder sister becoming the younger and vice versa, but that would just be baseless speculation, really.

I'm not sure there is a strong allusion to the Conqueror with the choice of the name Aegon. It is the most used male Targaryen name by far, and one of the standard names to give to your eldest son (Aenys I, Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, Prince Daemon, Viserys II, and Daemon Blackfyre all did that, and Prince Baelon and Maekar named at least one of their sons Aegon, as did Aerys II later on). Granted, the connection to the Conqueror is always there, of course, but all we know is that Rhaegar thought Aegon was the proper name for a future king - and he could just as well have thought about his great-grandfather when he said that.

Ignoring all that, my personal guess is that Visenya/Viserys was most likely not Rhaegar's choice of name. And in addition I might add that I don't really think we have as of yet enough information to make a good educated guess about what name Rhaegar and Lyanna would have chosen or actually did choose for their son.

The Aemon idea isn't bad, but we don't have enough information whether Rhaegar and Aemon were really close - he could still just have been the obscure/learned uncle you call upon when nobody else can give you information about the past. And then there is the fact that 'the woman is important, too' as Arya would put it - the Lyanna affair, whatever the exact nature of it was, clearly had a tremendous impact on Rhaegar's life. It is easily imaginable that they chose the future name of their child together or that Lyanna herself chose it. I mean, we see rather weird Targaryen names for Rhaenyra's elder sons, and since TRP we also know how that went down.

Lyanna could have convinced Rhaegar to choose a Stark name, to remember Brandon or Rickard (the former being the tradition Stark name could have been a good choice in Rhaegar's mind). Granted, Ned most likely wouldn't have changed such a name considering that it wouldn't have been Valyrian, but there could have been some Valyrian name combination or recreation - Aenys doesn't seem to be just 'Rhaenys' without the 'Rh' but a hint to the parents of the child - Aegon and Rhaenys.

Rhaegar's own name could be a similar combination, honoring Egg's father Maekar and either Egg's sister Rhae or his daughter Rhaelle.

In that sense, Jon Snow's true name could easily be completely new Valyrian/Targaryen name combining elements of both Rhaegar's and Lyanna's name - perhaps something like Rhaeanna for a girl and Lyaegar, Lyaegor or Lyaegon for a boy? If Jon Snow is embodying the ice-and-fire thing this could then even be reflected in his very name. And while I don't really think that means all that much metaphysically I'm pretty sure that the 'ice and fire' connection played a big role in Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship. They may easily have thrown around ironic lines like 'I'm the ice to your fire' - with most likely Rhaegar rather than Lyanna saying that one.

[purple-eyes]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not really insisting on Rhaegar thinking Viserys was one of the head. All I'm saying is that Viserys is a much better candidate because he isn't female. By that time in their history Targaryen women had no power whatsoever. They were the property of their fathers and brothers who either married them within in the family or to some nobleman they wanted to make an alliance with (Aegon V).

Targaryen women weren't expected to fulfill any leadership roles beside being the wife of the king (which means to look good, shut your mouth, and produce lots of children), and thus it is very unlikely that anyone at Aerys' court - neither Aerys himself, nor Rhaella or Rhaegar ever even considered the possibility that women might be important in the whole prophecy thing (aside from the fact, of course, that the promised prince would come forth from the line of Aerys and Rhaella).

There isn't any textual evidence that Rhaegar thinks the first two dragon heads are his children. That is a common misconception but it is actually an interpretation of the text, it is not actually written there. Rhaegar wants 'one more', which most likely means another son. One is inclined to believe that the first one, aside from Aegon, could be Rhaenys but it is just as likely he is talking about himself or Viserys.

I have no problem with the possibility that Rhaegar may have thought he was a dragon head. In fact, that could make sense. It was the comet that made him believe his second child by Elia could be the promised prince, and Aegon's birth confirmed it for him, but no longer believing he himself wasn't the promised prince doesn't mean he thought he wasn't important in all that prophecy business.

A core missing piece in the equation still is the question what led Rhaegar to believe that he wasn't the promised prince. My guess is his parents' inability to produce more sons. If the promised prince prophecy includes references to a 'trinity of saviors' (that is the three dragon heads) - and such references have to come from somewhere else Rhaegar's talk wouldn't make any sense - then Rhaegar could still think he was a vital part of all that as a son of Aerys and Rhaella.

But if Rhaegar came to the conclusion that the promised prince was to be looked for in the next generation for some reason then Viserys would make much more sense considering that he is much closer in age to Aegon. If Rhaenys was considered as a dragon head then there it would be strange indeed why Rhaegar would believe another head was still needed - Viserys, Rhaenys, and Aegon were three already, after all.

There is no hint or indication we have to believe that Rhaegar believed the three dragon heads all had to have his blood. Especially not in light of the fact that Ghost's prophecy spoke of Aerys and Rhaella's line, not the line of Aerys and Rhaella's son.

SFDanny,

we actually don't know when exactly Rhaegar changed his mind on his role of the promised prince. That is still a mystery to us. My best approximation is that he must have long buried the belief that he was the One, though, by the time of Aegon's conception. Else he wouldn't have interpreted the comet as a divine sign heralding the coming of the promised prince. If he had been firm in his belief by this point his mind wouldn't have connected the comet to Aegon but to himself (or he would have completely ignored it).

In that sense it is easily possible that Kevan's information/belief that Rhaegar wanted sons comes from the last years of Tywin's Handship during the early years of Rhaegar's marriage. He may already have believed that he wasn't the One but thought that he had to produce sons to bring forth the promised prince and his two companions if his parents couldn't do it.

As to the Targaryen sigil:

That is a tricky thing. Gyldayn tells us the long-established story of the genesis of the arms as symbolic depictions of the Conqueror and his sister-wives. But they, in turn, have nothing to do with the promised prince or those three dragon heads. Why should Rhaegar believe that the heraldic banner of his house should have anything to do with a much older prophecy? [Granted, he could have all sorts of strange esoteric beliefs but lets just assume that's not the case...]

We know the Targaryen version of the promised prince prophecy is much older and could thus, theoretically, have influenced Aegon's decision to conquer Westeros in the first place (that is entirely likely because the historians don't have a real answer for that).

If we assume that this is the case then there is also a pretty good chance that ancient prophecies talking about 'a dragon with three heads' or 'a three-headed dragon' symbolizing a Targaryen-blooded savior and his two companions may have influenced the genesis of the Targaryen banner. That would even be more likely if Aegon and his sisters had originally believed (and perhaps still during the time of the Conquest) that Aegon was the promised prince and Visenya and Rhaenys the other dragon heads.

Their arms would then be a nod to that belief, symbolizing them both as rulers of Westeros as well as in their roles as saviors.

And there is really a pretty subtle hint to all that in TWoIaF. Yandel tells us that Aegon's favorite place remained Dragonstone throughout his entire life, the place where he was born. I think it is pretty much consensus that most people in-universe believe that Dragonstone is indeed the place where the savior is born - at least that guy who is supposed to wake dragons from stone and stuff (which she has already done).

Back in the days of the Conqueror Targaryen women still played important roles and, most importantly, still were dragonriders (which most likely was also considered a very important criteria for being the promised prince and/or one of his companions). In Aemon's and Rhaegar's days it is unthinkable that women could play a role in all that.

And, as I've said above, it is still open to interpretation whether Rhaegar talks about his children or the three dragon heads when talking about having another child. He could just as easily believe he was only destined to bring forth two of the three dragon heads (Aegon and the third head) with his parents already producing the first one (either he himself or Viserys). There is no reason to drag Rhaenys into all this. It is very tempting to do this, and I did so myself in the past. I'd be more open to that idea/possibility if Aemon didn't sell us the idea of a promised princess as such a revolutionary idea, and if Rhaenys had also been mentioned or directly alluded to during the vision. But she is not. All we can say is that there must have been another 'first dragon head' aside from Aegon or else Rhaegar wouldn't have wanted to produce only the third head. But that's really it.

But aside from all that: Even if Aegon's birth convinced Rhaegar that he had to try to recreate Aegon and his sisters - he had already failed at that by not naming his first daughter Visenya. She was the elder, after all, and so Rhaegar's recreation of the founders of the dynasty would be defective from the start. Perhaps he thought he would create mirrored image of the siblings with the elder sister becoming the younger and vice versa, but that would just be baseless speculation, really.

I'm not sure there is a strong allusion to the Conqueror with the choice of the name Aegon. It is the most used male Targaryen name by far, and one of the standard names to give to your eldest son (Aenys I, Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, Prince Daemon, Viserys II, and Daemon Blackfyre all did that, and Prince Baelon and Maekar named at least one of their sons Aegon, as did Aerys II later on). Granted, the connection to the Conqueror is always there, of course, but all we know is that Rhaegar thought Aegon was the proper name for a future king - and he could just as well have thought about his great-grandfather when he said that.

Ignoring all that, my personal guess is that Visenya/Viserys was most likely not Rhaegar's choice of name. And in addition I might add that I don't really think we have as of yet enough information to make a good educated guess about what name Rhaegar and Lyanna would have chosen or actually did choose for their son.

The Aemon idea isn't bad, but we don't have enough information whether Rhaegar and Aemon were really close - he could still just have been the obscure/learned uncle you call upon when nobody else can give you information about the past. And then there is the fact that 'the woman is important, too' as Arya would put it - the Lyanna affair, whatever the exact nature of it was, clearly had a tremendous impact on Rhaegar's life. It is easily imaginable that they chose the future name of their child together or that Lyanna herself chose it. I mean, we see rather weird Targaryen names for Rhaenyra's elder sons, and since TRP we also know how that went down.

Lyanna could have convinced Rhaegar to choose a Stark name, to remember Brandon or Rickard (the former being the tradition Stark name could have been a good choice in Rhaegar's mind). Granted, Ned most likely wouldn't have changed such a name considering that it wouldn't have been Valyrian, but there could have been some Valyrian name combination or recreation - Aenys doesn't seem to be just 'Rhaenys' without the 'Rh' but a hint to the parents of the child - Aegon and Rhaenys.

Rhaegar's own name could be a similar combination, honoring Egg's father Maekar and either Egg's sister Rhae or his daughter Rhaelle.

In that sense, Jon Snow's true name could easily be completely new Valyrian/Targaryen name combining elements of both Rhaegar's and Lyanna's name - perhaps something like Rhaeanna for a girl and Lyaegar, Lyaegor or Lyaegon for a boy? If Jon Snow is embodying the ice-and-fire thing this could then even be reflected in his very name. And while I don't really think that means all that much metaphysically I'm pretty sure that the 'ice and fire' connection played a big role in Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship. They may easily have thrown around ironic lines like 'I'm the ice to your fire' - with most likely Rhaegar rather than Lyanna saying that one.

 

It seems quite clear that rhaegar thought all three heads must from his own body. Otherwise he can wait for rhaella to get another son. Rhaella is not barren.

And by all means, child of rhaella has purer dragon blood than rhaegar's children. So they are better candidate for dragon head. 

Therefore There is no need for rhaegar to abduct his cousin's fiancée if child of rhaella can be dragon head. 

I think after Rhaegar decided aegon is the promised prince, then he believed himself as well as viserys would not be dragon heads. Because the original one are three siblings. Not uncles and nephews. 

 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

It seems quite clear that rhaegar thought all three heads must from his own body. Otherwise he can wait for rhaella to get another son. Rhaella is not barren.

And by all means, child of rhaella has purer dragon blood than rhaegar's children. So they are better candidate for dragon head. 

Therefore There is no need for rhaegar to abduct his cousin's fiancée if child of rhaella can be dragon head. 

I think after Rhaegar decided aegon is the promised prince, then he believed himself as well as viserys would not be dragon heads. Because the original one are three siblings. Not uncles and nephews. 

Rhaella was close to forty when she died on Dragonstone. Viserys was the last time before Daenerys that she became pregnant, and we know that she and Aerys had grown very much apart, keeping to their own apartments and avoiding each other as best they could. While Aerys still had shreds of his sanity the chances were very low that they would ever have sexual relations again. Rhaella had produced two sons, and that should have been enough.

It was Aerys' obsession with fire - and only that - during his last years that led to his final intimate relations with Rhaella, and those were all cruel rapes.

We should therefore not assume that Rhaegar ever expected his mother to produce more children after the birth of Viserys.

And, again, it is an assumption that is not supported by the text that Rhaegar believed all the three dragon heads must be his children. If we are honest we don't even know why he would believe that. To our knowledge there is neither a prophecy nor something else pointing in that direction. And Rhaegar just deciding out of the blue that he must be/was the father of the saviors of the world doesn't make much sense.

If somebody should believe they are the parents of the saviors then it would be Aerys and Rhaella - and they might have believed that - because there was a prophecy which foretells that their are either the parents of the promised prince or at least his direct descendants (if he is born of their line he could be their son, grandson, great-grandson or some great-great-great ... grandson a thousand years in the future.

But nothing points especially to Rhaegar. Especially not after Viserys' birth. From the very day he lived and did not die there were two potential promised princes (Rhaegar and Viserys) and two potential fathers of two different Targaryen branches alive who could eventually bring forth the promised prince. Rhaegar must have known all that much better than we do.

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaella was close to forty when she died on Dragonstone. Viserys was the last time before Daenerys that she became pregnant, and we know that she and Aerys had grown very much apart, keeping to their own apartments and avoiding each other as best they could. While Aerys still had shreds of his sanity the chances were very low that they would ever have sexual relations again. Rhaella had produced two sons, and that should have been enough.

It was Aerys' obsession with fire - and only that - during his last years that led to his final intimate relations with Rhaella, and those were all cruel rapes.

We should therefore not assume that Rhaegar ever expected his mother to produce more children after the birth of Viserys.

And, again, it is an assumption that is not supported by the text that Rhaegar believed all the three dragon heads must be his children. If we are honest we don't even know why he would believe that. To our knowledge there is neither a prophecy nor something else pointing in that direction. And Rhaegar just deciding out of the blue that he must be/was the father of the saviors of the world doesn't make much sense.

If somebody should believe they are the parents of the saviors then it would be Aerys and Rhaella - and they might have believed that - because there was a prophecy which foretells that their are either the parents of the promised prince or at least his direct descendants (if he is born of their line he could be their son, grandson, great-grandson or some great-great-great ... grandson a thousand years in the future.

But nothing points especially to Rhaegar. Especially not after Viserys' birth. From the very day he lived and did not die there were two potential promised princes (Rhaegar and Viserys) and two potential fathers of two different Targaryen branches alive who could eventually bring forth the promised prince. Rhaegar must have known all that much better than we do.

I do not know what rhaegar decided before, but after that red comet, he firmly believe aegon is the promised prince. 

Honestly I have no idea what is the relationship of promised prince with "dragon has three heads". Prince will wake up a three headed dragon? Or prince himself is one dragon head? It looks like the former one is true with dany, but maybe rhaegar thought the latter. 

Original three headed dragon are three siblings. Rhaegar said there must be one more when he had two children. It seems clear that rhaegar decided the promised prince should have two siblings. 

If he counted viserys, then he should count himself too. Then there are already three make targs. Rhaegar did not need a third one. 

[J. Stargaryen]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

1. We learned from Kevan that Rhaegar wanted 'sons', plural, not another daughter, making it unlikely that he hoped/thought/wanted another daughter, and had a female name name in mind. This suggests that the Rhaegar may have thought his own brother Viserys and his son Aegon were the first two dragon heads, with Aegon being the promised prince (due to the comet sign). The third head would then have been male, too, but Rhaenys was just an insignificant girl.

I usually take this, and the other quote referring to Rhaegar's sons, as a hint that Rhaegar actually had two sons. When we look at the passage from Cersei, we can see that it's directly connected to Rhaegar + Lyanna.

Her aunt had lied, though, and her father had failed her, just as Jaime was failing her now. Father found no better man. Instead he gave me Robert, and Maggy’s curse bloomed like some poisonous flower. If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons. - AFfC, Cersei V

And look at the possible symbolism involving the flower. Further, there are some linguistic connections between Maggy's curse, as dreamt of by Cersei in her first chapter, and Ned's ToJ dream. A dream that ends with Ned whispering "I promise ... Lya I promise." A phrase which has been linked to another prophecy from a different woods witch.

You can read more about that here if you want, though the topic appears to have been archived. Cersei's fifth and eight chapters in AFfC are heavy on R+L related parallels.