Is it bad that I understand and accept Cersei and Jaime's relationship?

[Richard Writhen]

 They're half-targaryens.

[Dofs]

I think the months in captivity and all the humiliation did have an effect on Jaime, though he tries to put a brave face on it until he loses his hand.

Excellent analysis and I agree with basically everything, except for this. I don't believe that months of captivity had any real effect on Jaime or humiliated him in any way. In those three chapters before he lost his hand, Jaime was cracking jokes, was in a good mood and was not concerned about anything. He didn't have and thoughts about his prison time at all, as if he was on a vacation and not captured in a dungeon. For him it was basically like "well, I was captured, put in dungeon, whatever".

He just didn't lose anything important to him in that dungeon, and all he cared for is Cersei and his fighting ability and that dungeon didn't touch anything of that. Hence losing his hand broke him so much when months in a dungeon didn't do anything to him.

[purple-eyes]

Apparently incest is not a big deal in the world of GRRM. 

It was hailed as a way to maintain the noble and pure blood. 

He wrote some very positive love stories or best marriages such as Aemon and Naerys, Rhaenys and Aegon, Jaehearys and Shiera, old King and good queen, etc. etc. all of these are full-blood sister and brother. 

If they can do this, why not Cersei and Jaime? They are not the first couple from twin brother and sister. 

I do not like that Targ is above god stuff, so if targ incest can be treated as something great, then I think Cersei and Jaime had no problem with that. 

It seems targ has no bottom line for incest by the way. Aegon IV had rumor to sleep with his own bastard daughter. 

Daemon and Nettles are suspicious too. So I guess people should not judge Cersei and Jaime on incest. 

 

 

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Really? I was very surprised by this because guys in real life have killed because of this very reason (one that springs to mind is the teacher that had the student she was sleeping with kill her husband). I love men and I have a lot of respect for men but they will do stupid things for love/sex.

guys and women.

If you look for studies on abusive relationships, you will find that the abuser manipulates the abused with sex and this happens in relationships involving both genders. We don't want to see that when the woman is the abuser because we don't want to "shame" her, but in this case, the person is not just a "woman" but an abuser.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

guys and women.

If you look for studies on abusive relationships, you will find that the abuser manipulates the abused with sex and this happens in relationships involving both genders. We don't want to see that when the woman is the abuser because we don't want to "shame" her, but in this case, the person is not just a "woman" but an abuser.

sorry but if someone does something "for someone else" they are still culpable for that.  You are not gonna convince me that Jaime can do no wrong just because cersei is a horrible manipulative bitch.  They are both horrible back then.

[Hodor the Articulate]

As for the relationship between Jaime and Cersei themselves, I think they were both in it for very different reasons. Cersei saw Jaime as a male version of herself therefore the perfect male whereas Jaime loved Cersei for who she was despite her faults. Whenever Jaime deviated from Cersei's perceived role she was always harsh and cruel to Jaime. One of my favorite moments was when he tore up that letter and just left her to her fate, that she created for herself.

Not despite; he never saw Cersei as having faults.

And frankly, this idea that Jaime was just some poor innocent victim, and Cersei, a succubus, is rubbish. We have several instances of him ignoring what Cersei has to say, belittling her opinion, forcing himself on her, and doing the opposite of what she wants. He was never under her control; he chose to do all that crap. They're both assholes.

[INCBlackbird]

sorry but if someone does something "for someone else" they are still culpable for that.  You are not gonna convince me that Jaime can do no wrong just because cersei is a horrible manipulative bitch.  They are both horrible back then.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that Jaime did nothing wrong, the point is that if it weren't for Cersei, who manipulated and yes abused him, he probably wouldn't have done those things that he did wrong. She's the primary source.

[imaginepageant]

Well, I read a lot of VC Andrews growing up, so I'm pretty desensitized to incestuous love stories by this point.

I'm fascinated by Cersei and Jaime's relationship because it's so complex, and when you get right down to it, heartbreaking. Jaime could've had any woman in the Seven Kingdoms, but he fell in love with the one woman he couldn't have. His entire life was shaped by his love for her. He gave up everything just to be near her. And I don't believe she ever truly loved him in the same way. She loved him for what he could do for her, and brushed him aside when she had no need of him. I think she lived vicariously through him, in a way; he was everything she wanted to be, but couldn't be, because she was born a woman instead of a man.

I understand both sides of the relationship, but do I accept it? No. Not because it's incest, but because it would be a poisonous relationship regardless of who they were to one another.

In terms of character development, it's brilliant. Jaime is my favorite character, and that's in large part because of how his relationship with Cersei shaped his character and his arc. And Cersei's dependence on and envy of Jaime is a huge factor in her character as well. I don't think either character would be as interesting or complex if their relationship wasn't incestuous.

[kimim]

Relationship between Jaime and Cersei is hideously dysfunctional, incest or no. Would this mess be any better if they were not twins?

Also, when people say "it's Cersei's fault," they're not just being sexist or bad readers. They're responding to something in the text. Martin sends the twins down two very different paths. In Feast, Martin removes all positive qualities, all humanity from Cersei, and turns her into a raging monster from hell. Jaime starts out as the jock knight from hell, but Martin gradually adds more humanity, forcing him into a redemptive arc in Storm. Faced with one monster twin, and one redemptive twin, a reader's going to come to the foregone conclusion: Cersei is at fault. Poor, poor Jaime.

It's the wrong conclusion. Jaime is exactly as bad as Cersei, until he changes, but the fact is, he does change, as does Cersei. It so happens that she doesn't change in a way one would wish for the sake of Westeros and family Lannister. I kind of wish Martin hadn't gone down this path, tbh. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I don't think anyone's suggesting that Jaime did nothing wrong, the point is that if it weren't for Cersei, who manipulated and yes abused him, he probably wouldn't have done those things that he did wrong. She's the primary source.

I love my partner.  But if he told me one day that I had to kill the neighbors kid or he'd leave me - no.  Sorry.  And I'd say the same for anyone in an abhsive relationship too.  In fact, one of the main reasons I don't consider Jaime a victim here is because he is not just willing but apparently enthusiastically willing to do all sorts of evil things, quite beyond what cersei asks.  

Abuse victims are characterized most often for their empathy for others, including their abusers.  That's why they give their partners so many second chances, because they are good, trusting people who expect the best from others. Where is Jaimes empathy for Arya?  For bran?  For Neds unarmed men?  Even for cersei?  No - He smirks and jokes appears to enjoy the violence he commits, supposedly "for cersei".  And as for cersei he doesn't give a crap about her or what she wants.  He dismisses her, pushes sex on her on several occasions. Really he's doing what he does because that's what he wants to do.  Because by agot in order to justify who he's allowed himself to become, he has to believe he has the right to do whatever he wants.  

Even in the Arya remembrance quoted there is not even a hint that he had any second thoughts or qualms at the time.  Now, sure he probably feels some shame thinking about it, because he's starting to try to be the man he was when he was 16 again.  The boy horrified by Aerys atrocities.  but during the first three books, he had that part of himself thoroughly put aside, and that was his choice to do and no one else's.

[kimim]

...during the first three books, he had that part of himself thoroughly put aside, and that was his choice to do and no one else's.

It was. The huge, big, bad problem is that Martin then takes this man, and shoves him into a redemptive arc, which looks all the more dramatic when compared to what he does for Cersei, which is turn her into a monster. So when Jaime in Feast points out Cersei's many mistakes, and eventually turns against her, the temptation is to cheer him  and blame her for everything that went wrong from the very beginning. This is also in the text. Compare the way Martin handles young Cersei, with the way he handles young Jaime:

Young Cersei tormented Tyrion. Young Cersei killed her best friend, all on her own, simply to prevent the girl from divulging what Maggie the Frog said.  

Young Jaime liked Tyrion. Young Jaime was horrified by what Aerys did to his wife. Young Jaime went along with his dad's Tysha plan, but he was simply obeying Tywin, and the older Jaime confesses this to Tyrion.

This good twin-bad twin goes back a long way. Of course it's simplistic, but it really is there.

 

 

 

[SerGerold]

sorry but if someone does something "for someone else" they are still culpable for that.  You are not gonna convince me that Jaime can do no wrong just because cersei is a horrible manipulative bitch.  They are both horrible back then.

Hi Spoon (may I call you Spoon?),

I am a big fan of personal responsibility and accountability, and so *mostly* agree with your viewpoint in this thread. I might point out though, that culpability/accountability/responsibility goes right out the window when one or more of the participants is not mentally or emotionally healthy, *or* (similar) one of the participants for some other reason is incapable of separating right from wrong (such as one being a child).

So, with the above exceptions, I agree with you (and I have taught my kids this as they grew up) - Everything you do is a choice, and every choice you make has consequences, good or bad. 

While Jaime and Cersei both have despicable characteristics and behaviors, Jaime does not appear to be mentally ill, and thus is not being controlled by Cersei. He's just an arrogant ass until he loses his hand. Cersei, though.. one could make a good case for her being a high-functioning sociopath on a steady downward spiral to psychopathy. Fun stuff.

 

Back to the shadows...

 

G

[A spoon of knife and fork]

It was. The huge, big, bad problem is that Martin then takes this man, and shoves him into a redemptive arc, which looks all the more dramatic when compared to what he does for Cersei, which is turn her into a monster. So when Jaime in Feast points out Cersei's many mistakes, and eventually turns against her, the temptation is to cheer him  and blame her for everything that went wrong from the very beginning. This is also in the text. Compare the way Martin handles young Cersei, with the way he handles young Jaime:

Young Cersei tormented Tyrion. Young Cersei killed her best friend, all on her own, simply to prevent the girl from divulging what Maggie the Frog said.  

Young Jaime liked Tyrion. Young Jaime was horrified by what Aerys did to his wife. Young Jaime went along with his dad's Tysha plan, but he was simply obeying Tywin, and the older Jaime confesses this to Tyrion.

This good twin-bad twin goes back a long way. Of course it's simplistic, but it really is there.

 

Thing is, I am a believer in the Jaime redemption arc.  But to be redeemed you have to be redeemed FROM something.  You have to actually change.  I don't believe anyone is "inherently" anything, but young Jaime is undoubtedly a decent, loving sort of kid if we define that by how he acts. By the time we see him in got, he's something entirely different.  He's bitter, cynical, selfish, and cruel.  Then, we see him start to reconsider all that.  Of course, a big part of that is rejecting cersei, but s bigger part is trying to be a better person himself. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Hi Spoon (may I call you Spoon?),

I am a big fan of personal responsibility and accountability, and so *mostly* agree with your viewpoint in this thread. I might point out though, that culpability/accountability/responsibility goes right out the window when one or more of the participants is not mentally or emotionally healthy, *or* (similar) one of the participants for some other reason is incapable of separating right from wrong (such as one being a child).

So, with the above exceptions, I agree with you (and I have taught my kids this as they grew up) - Everything you do is a choice, and every choice you make has consequences, good or bad. 

While Jaime and Cersei both have despicable characteristics and behaviors, Jaime does not appear to be mentally ill, and thus is not being controlled by Cersei. He's just an arrogant ass until he loses his hand. Cersei, though.. one could make a good case for her being a high-functioning sociopath on a steady downward spiral to psychopathy. Fun stuff.

 

Back to the shadows...

 

G

you certainly may call me spoon!  

anyway yes it's a good point about personal responsibility in the face of "mental illness" but I tend to think its not an acceptable justification either.  Mostly because the harm is no less real.  This is also true for addicts - in some way they have a hard row to hoe, but there is a solution and that is to stop using the substance, whatever it is.  For the truely mentally ill, there are usually still moments of clarity.  It's in those moments, where free will is an option, where it is time to take action.  To remove oneself from situations where you can do harm.  

But... I'm not even sure Cersei actually qualifies as mentally ill simply by virtue of being somewhat sociopathic and narcissistic.  you're right in that Jaime is not either so is possibly more fully culpable for the choices he does make that harm others. It depends to some extent on whether we say cerseis issues are behavioral vs caused directly by mental illness.  I'd lean towards the former.

[Dofs]

all men and women may use as excuses what someone else wants them to do - but it's still their choice.

cersei is despicable for what she does.

jaime is no less responsible for what he does.  A LOT of people here seem to think "well a bad person I like to fuck told me to" is somehow legitimate reason for murder & treason. It is not, at all.

I absolutely agree that it's Jaime's fault that he was fine with everything Cersei was doing or asking him to do, as Jaime is in no way an idiot, as the 3rd and 4th book had shown. But dismissing Cersei's influence, manipulation and psychological control over him is as wrong as saying that Jaime was absolutely innocent in what he was doing for her sake. 

By the way, if you believe that Jaime's arc is a classical "bad guy becomes good" redemption story, can you please explain how his classical "I was good all along" speech in the bathtub fits in this arc, where the wildfire plot basically exists solely to whitewash pre-handloss Jaime?

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I absolutely agree that it's Jaime's fault that he was fine with everything Cersei was doing or asking him to do, as Jaime is in no way an idiot, as the 3rd and 4th book had shown. But dismissing Cersei's influence, manipulation and psychological control over him is as wrong as saying that Jaime was absolutely innocent in what he was doing for her sake. 

By the way, if you believe that Jaime's arc is a classical "bad guy becomes good" redemption story, can you please explain how his classical "I was good all along" speech in the bathtub fits in this arc, where the wildfire plot basically exists solely to whitewash pre-handloss Jaime?

 

it's not.  the Aerys thing legitimizes 16 year old Jaime as a fairly decent and well meaning person.  It does absolutely nothing to legitimize Jaime  we see in GoT.  Not only can people change but they usually change many times.  

[Dofs]

it's not.  the Aerys thing legitimizes 16 year old Jaime as a fairly decent and well meaning person.  It does absolutely nothing to legitimize Jaime  we see in GoT.  Not only can people change but they usually change many times.  

So why did Martin put it in the middle of his redemption arc, treating it like a big reveal? Why this speech even exists? Martin could just redeem Jaime without inventing this wildfire plot at all, making Jaime truly kill the king as a power grab, like everyone believes, but then make him rethink his life and become a better person. But no, just after Jaime lost his hand, Martin reveals that the one thing everyone in the 7 Kingdoms despised Jaime for was actually a heroic act. Why?

[talvikorppi]

Excellent analysis and I agree with basically everything, except for this. I don't believe that months of captivity had any real effect on Jaime or humiliated him in any way. In those three chapters before he lost his hand, Jaime was cracking jokes, was in a good mood and was not concerned about anything. He didn't have and thoughts about his prison time at all, as if he was on a vacation and not captured in a dungeon. For him it was basically like "well, I was captured, put in dungeon, whatever".

He just didn't lose anything important to him in that dungeon, and all he cared for is Cersei and his fighting ability and that dungeon didn't touch anything of that. Hence losing his hand broke him so much when months in a dungeon didn't do anything to him.

Such a shame this forum won't show the bit you quoted from my long post, so here it is: "I think the months in captivity and all the humiliation did have an effect on Jaime, though he tries to put a brave face on it until he loses his hand."

You make a very good point about him not thinking about his prison time and cracking jokes and being like on a holiday - but, well, wouldn't you, if your enemy's own mother had set you free? lol! He's thinking about Cersei and getting back to KL and her, and overpowering Brienne (and Cleos), he's giddy with freedom (notices flowers, birds singing etc.)

However, I'd say that the imprisonment did have some effect. Why?

Because his encounter with Lady Catelyn in the dungeon. Yes, he was incredibly arrogant ("There are no men like me. Only me.") but there's the truth game with wine. Now, we don't know how truthful Jaime habitually is. I suspect not very - he was hiding one of the most explosive truths in the Seven Kingdoms, after all (that Bobby B's kids aren't his). In the dungeon, with Lady Catelyn, he confesses the incest bastards and also trying to kill Bran.

Why? Back in the day, Jaime and Cersei wanted it kept secret. And Jaime goes on a bit of a rant and spills his guts about "And what a king Aerys II was!" and tells the facts of Rickard and Brandon Stark's deaths (not known to Cat before). To me, that points to Jaime having thought and thought about things for months. He was chained in the dungeons with nothing to do. My take is that he'd just blocked/erased/not thought about it all much at all for the past 17 or whatever  years, just embraced his "role" as the evil, reviled Kingslayer who does whatever he wants. And did whatever he wanted.

Why would he be telling all this to his enemy? He's not some broken wreck, he's still got his spirit and vicious wit. Yet, he freely admits treason and horrible crimes. Maybe it was the drink? But he began before he was drunk.

I don't have my books here, so I'm not sure when the "so many vows" speech comes up. In the show (sorry!) it's well before Lady Catelyn sets him free, I think in the books it's during the dungeon encounter. Now, why would a guy best known for kingslaying, oathbreaking, shit for honour, bring up vows? Unless he's been thinking about the whole thing?

It's not explicitly spelled out in the books, but I think the imprisonment made Jaime have to think about things. Still defiant and arrogant, but he's had to think about things he's shoved away for years, and he doesn't like it at all, hence all the (faux) arrogance.

A second, more mundane point. Later, when Jaime leads the mopping-up military force into the Riverlands, he's very particular about sending out scouts, making every camp defensible, setting lots of watches. He does not want to be caught out and fail like he did to Robb Stark in the Whispering Wood and Riverrrun. It'd be strange to think that he did not think about his military failure during all those months of captivity, and only comes up with these thoughts once he leaves KL.

Thirdly, also a mundane point. Jaime did lose something in that dungeon. He was out of practice and malnourished and weak. He would've been more than an even match to Brienne, with hands chained, in his prime. But he'd lost so much muscle and fitness - who wouldn't - that he was panting and barely holding up and just about to lose when Vargo Hoat & co showed up.

Of course it's all conjecture, we do not have GRRM's word on how the captivity affected Jaime, but there are clues. We might read them differently, and that's OK. The way I read it, the captivity humiliated him and he knows it, and he's been pondering about it, and many other things for about a year. The Lion of Lannister reduced to a mere captive kitten. His father, Lord Tywin, counted on him, and he failed. The actual reduction to a mere kitten (hand chopped off) only comes after - and kicks off the real identity crisis.

I hope I've been able to explain my reasoning. I tend to ramble.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

So why did Martin put it in the middle of his redemption arc, treating it like a big reveal? Why this speech even exists? Martin could just redeem Jaime without inventing this wildfire plot at all, making Jaime truly kill the king as a power grab, like everyone believes, but then make him rethink his life and become a better person. But no, just after Jaime lost his hand, Martin reveals that the one thing everyone in the 7 Kingdoms despised Jaime for was actually a heroic act. Why?

I'm not sure I really understand what's bothering you here.  Why did GRRM write it that way? - because that's the character he decided he wanted to give us.  A young man, generally no worse than most, turns bitter, jaded, and does many evil things after he is labeled as Kingslayer for stopping a madman.  

This same man, then, begins to reconsider his life choices and to try to be better than the man he's let himself become, and more like the young man he once was.

[Dofs]

Yeah, I definitely disagree with you here quite a lot, talvikorppi 

Because his encounter with Lady Catelyn in the dungeon. Yes, he was incredibly arrogant ("There are no men like me. Only me.") but there's the truth game with wine. Now, we don't know how truthful Jaime habitually is. I suspect not very - he was hiding one of the most explosive truths in the Seven Kingdoms, after all (that Bobby B's kids aren't his). In the dungeon, with Lady Catelyn, he confesses the incest bastards and also trying to kill Bran.

Jaime hiding the incest is not an indication that he was not a truthful. This is a secret, revealing which will create death sentence for Cersei, and their kids. As a matter of fact, he is still keeping this secret and fighting for the king whom he knows is not even a truthful king.

I believe Jaime didn't do anything exceptional for him there. Jaime always wasn't fond of lies and deceptions. Remember how he treated Sybelle Westerling, how he told that he would never make others do a dirty work for him and how he would always fight head on, how he compared the smell of King's Landing with lies. Jaime is a straightforward person who respects straightforwardness. He respected Brienne a bit for calling him Kingslayer to his face, but disrespected Cleos for being nice to him as Jaime thought that he was a lick-spittle. That's who Jaime is. But he wouldn't reveal secrets that would hurt and harm his loved ones, like a secret about incest. And everything he was telling to Catelyn was already irrelevant and not harmful: 

"Not knowing how long this game might continue, Catelyn wasted no time. "Are you Joffrey's father?"

"You would never ask unless you knew the answer"

 

Why? Back in the day, Jaime and Cersei wanted it kept secret.

I don't think Jaime wanted to keep it a secret. Cersei was the one who wanted.

And Jaime goes on a bit of a rant and spills his guts about "And what a king Aerys II was!" and tells the facts of Rickard and Brandon Stark's deaths (not known to Cat before). 

That was a well-known story, Jaime didn't reveal any secrets there. Jaime just wanted to show Catelyn his perspective of who was the man she despised Jaime for killing. That's why when after his story Cat called him "Kingslayer" again, it majorly pissed him off and he started to offend Cat as rude as possible. 

I don't have my books here, so I'm not sure when the "so many vows" speech comes up. In the show (sorry!) it's well before Lady Catelyn sets him free, I think in the books it's during the dungeon encounter. Now, why would a guy best known for kingslaying, oathbreaking, shit for honour, bring up vows? Unless he's been thinking about the whole thing?

I also don't think he was just thinking about his vows only in that dungeon. He always thought about them, imo, he always wanted to be honorable and have a good reputation deep inside, even though he himself believed he had shit for honor. Jaime acted as a cynic, but he is a romantic by nature. And no matter how cynic he may have seemed, you can't go against nature.

 The Lion of Lannister reduced to a mere captive kitten. His father, Lord Tywin, counted on him, and he failed. The actual reduction to a mere kitten (hand chopped off) only comes after - and kicks off the real identity crisis.

 Yeah, I don't think Jaime cared that much that he failed his father, or that he was captured. No more than it's just not comfortable physically to be in a dungeon. 

 

Anyway, that's how I see it. That's ok if you see it differently.