European politics: Into the "right" futur

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

Absolutely. There's a difference between being critical of ourselves and our ancestors and outright hating them. 

Or do you only see people as perfect or evil? Do you ignore every mistake or bad thing you've ever done, because overall you consider yourself to be pretty decent person?

And nearly all of Western Europe has eclipsed reasonable self criticism while covering up multiple rapes continent wide so as not to offend foreigners you were good enough to welcome.

It's pathetic.

[Born Yesterday]

Family bonds don't often have to do with tax collection by my knowledge.

Sure, but I said "familial and community bonds" (not just people with blood ties), and you asked if we trust "each other" in general. The tax collector is a very special case of "other", and if that's what you were going for, maybe you should have specified.

and as for the ottoman law in Greece, I am not sure if i remember this entirely, but if the christians paid a seperate tax they could avoid Military service and live by their own laws? Its been a long time since I have read anything about the Ottomans.

Christians could be tried in a Christian court, as long as the dispute was among themselves and no Muslim was involved. (Same for Jews). I could go on in detail, but...

Sorry, where is this all going? I thought you were going to tie it to the discussion of the thread somehow, but now I feel I'm just contributing to a giant non sequitur, no offense.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

Do citizens not vote for these shills in Europe?

You're more than happy to indict any American who supports Trump for every last thing he's ever said and done, often misrepresenting what he's actually said.

Take a note from my glorious Magyar cousins. Protect your lands and people before it's too late.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

It was a generalization. This board slants heavily.

The media might be even more slanted.

Nothing personal.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Sure, but I said "familial and community bonds" (not just people with blood ties), and you asked if we trust "each other" in general. The tax collector is a very special case of "other", and if that's what you were going for, maybe you should have specified.

Christians could be tried in a Christian court, as long as the dispute was among themselves and no Muslim was involved. (Same for Jews). I could go on in detail, but...

Sorry, where is this all going? I thought you were going to tie it to the discussion of the thread somehow, but now I feel I'm just contributing to a giant non sequitur, no offense.

An example of a high trust society would be the Scandinavian countries, where people often leave strollers with babies in them on the sidewalks. Other general examples are leaving your door unlocked or trusting a business partner not to try to screw you over.

Often, lower trust societies compensate by dealing mostly within families, which has a side effect of encouraging nepotism.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crime-and-corruption-are-low/

http://www.jstor.org/stable/20752121?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

[Born Yesterday]

An example of a high trust society would be the Scandinavian countries, where people often leave strollers with babies in them on the sidewalks. Other general examples are leaving your door unlocked or trusting a business partner not to try to screw you over.

Often, lower trust societies compensate by dealing mostly within families, which has a side effect of encouraging nepotism.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/04/15/where-trust-is-high-crime-and-corruption-are-low/

http://www.jstor.org/stable/20752121?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

All that is quite reasonable. But I still don't see what it has to do with the thread. Does it explain why we have nazis in the parliament?

[Marcus Agrippa]

All that is quite reasonable. But I still don't see what it has to do with the thread. Does it explain why we have nazis in the parliament?

It's my fault, tech, even with the "ending" of the greek crisis its still a current event, and greek tax policy could be considered european politics. However, I can see why it also can't. I gust don't want to make another thread about it. It seems sort of pointless?

[Clueless Northman]

Like I said, he is someone who likes to challenge the mainstream ideas. Is he right? I do not know. To be honest I was sitting all the time with big eyes during his class and was also thinking what is he saying now, because it went totally against all the things I learned. But the main purpose of his studies is encouraging people not take everything what we currently think about the Romans for granted and to think for your own. 

So is it possible to wonder? Cicero might have indeed written about the nature of Gods. I must say I do know nothing about his work. But a quick look on wikipedia can give me a picture of his work: speeches, texts on rhetoric and philosophy.

What I say is simple: we KNOW that "deus" means "god". There's no contest possible because it's been very clear since the very first bits of Latin literature that it refers to gods. It'd be like saying "equus" doesn't mean "horse", it means "fork". It's the same root as "theos" after all, so it goes down way farther in the Indo-European ancestry of language.

Only possibility would be for someone to use it as a figure of speech, some kind of god-like judge, or judge having some godly powers invested in them. Though I still can't see down-to-Earth people like early Romans going straight for that word - even if "imperium" was basically meant to be divine, or divinely-mandated, power, for instance.

 

The authorities then.  I'm curious to see what people think ought to happen?  I think they should be prosecuted.

Well, they might identify some, but good luck with identifying the majority.

Besides, whatever some ministers say to appease the pissed off public opinion, they'll get lawyers, appeals up to ECHR, and that will take a couple of years - unless Germany decides to say "fuck it" and break rules. Which they could do - they wouldn't face much backlash or real consequences, but I'm not sure the government and politicians are quiet ready for it.

[Crixus]

I guess we need Crixus to offer the perspective of Muslim women... again. I would have thought her message had caught on by now.

Hey! Nah, mate. I tried and failed (barring a few of you lot who understood what I was trying to get across). Luckily, one of my favourite authors, a Pakistani, says what I'd like to far better than I ever could, about what an individual Muslim feels, how she is required to act by the rest of the world, how much diversity there is, how much confusion, varying degrees of belief and interpretation and so on: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/opinion/i-worry-about-muslims.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1 

He's written 2 brilliant books, one a black comedy on General Zia-ul-Haq (a case of exploding mangoes) and 1 on the persecution faced by minorities and women in Pakistan (our lady of Alice Bhatti). Those who rush to condemn all Muslims/Pakistanis and paint them with a broad brush on here should try reading his books, provided they have the moral courage to look at alternate POVs and even, perhaps, admit they may have been wrong. Because these books illustrate the fact that we are aware of the problems our societies face, and many of us try everyday to do better.

It's really easy to sit a thousand miles away, wag condescending fingers and ask ludicrous, insulting questions that imply Muslims/Pakistanis/brown people are sub-human. Hanif points out a fact of life: most of us are 'accidental' Muslims who were born thus, and have never bothered with it-it's a background aspect of life for such. So why the hell should this accident obligate me to churn with guilt and apologise profusely when some fuckwit I have never met nor have anything to do with decides to go on a rampage? I have NOTHING in common with him, including (his version of) religion. Hell, I don't have a religion at all. 

It would be like me insisting everyone white person apologise for colonisation whenever I interact with them. Or for bombing Iraq, killing civilians, kids and on and on. It's fucking stupid. 

Sorry, GftV, I got a bit carried away there.  

End rant

 

 

 

[mormont]

 

Besides, whatever some ministers say to appease the pissed off public opinion, they'll get lawyers, appeals up to ECHR, and that will take a couple of years - unless Germany decides to say "fuck it" and break rules. Which they could do - they wouldn't face much backlash or real consequences, but I'm not sure the government and politicians are quiet ready for it.

So the argument here is, we should protect our civilised society with all its rules and legal safeguards by, erm, ignoring all its rules and legal safeguards?

[Buckwheat]

If these were mostly Syrian refugees and can be identified shouldn't they be prosecuted or are we going to chalk this up to not understanding the cultural differences in Germany as compaired to home?

Are you implying the incidents should be just glossed over because of "cultural differences"?

Yes, they should be prosecuted because they commited something Germany considers a crime.

[ElizabethB.]

So the argument here is, we should protect our civilised society with all its rules and legal safeguards by, erm, ignoring all its rules and legal safeguards?

We can't really talk about civilised society when hundreds of young girls get fondled (beaten and fingerraped) by comrades (migrant men from muslim countries). 

[mormont]

We can't really talk about civilised society when hundreds of young girls get fondled (beaten and fingerraped) by comrades (migrant men from muslim countries). 

Why not?

Should we only talk about it while hundreds of kids are being abused by priests, or teachers, etc.?

If the sign of a civilised society is one that has no crime, rather than one that deals with crime in a fair and consistent way according to universal principles of justice, then I'm afraid I don't know of any civilised societies.

[ElizabethB.]

We can't really talk about civilised society when hundreds of young girls get fondled (beaten and fingerraped) by comrades (migrant men from muslim countries). 

... in   o n e   night. 

[mormont]

... in   o n e   night. 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this is supposed to amend or strengthen your point.

It's certainly true that the fact that this incident involved many assaults in one night makes it unusual, serious, and affects the practicalities of investigating and prosecuting it. But what difference does it make to whether the rule of law should apply?

[Lyanna Stark]

Crixus,

I have long admired your capability of putting things in perspective and to add a voice of reason to these debates. Perhaps not every one is willing to listen, but some definitely are.  

We can't really talk about civilised society when hundreds of young girls get fondled (beaten and fingerraped) by comrades (migrant men from muslim countries). 

 

OK, so where did civil society go and why can't we talk about it? A group of people committed several terrible crimes, which should lead to justice and appropriate punishment. Where is the "uncivil" in that? I for one hope that the police work is thorough and that the guilty are quickly found and that the women get some sort of appropriate compensation.

 

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0UM0L220160108

Good guy Orban defends Polish sovereignty in protecting it's people and borders.

Western European voters take heed.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Are you implying the incidents should be just glossed over because of "cultural differences"?

Yes, they should be prosecuted because they commited something Germany considers a crime.

Buckwheat,

No, If these people can be identified I believe they should be prosecuted regardless of their cultural background.  Upthread a poster calling themself "Stinkhole" said that if these were Syrian refugees or recent immigrees from largely Muslim regions that their unfamilerity with German culture should mitigate against holding them criminally culpable for their actions.  That was the source for my question.  I wondered if anyone else agrees with Stinkhole.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

FTR I was supporting deportation for all of these male economic migrants.

The perpetrators of sexual assault on their gracious hosts ought to be flayed.

As should any public official enabling their crimes.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

FTR I was supporting deportation for all of these male economic migrants.

 

The perpetrators of sexual assault on their gracious hosts ought to be flayed.

TPTWP,

Good grief.  No one should be flayed, or drawn and quartered, or boiled in oil, or crucified.  Simply prosecute the perpetrators to the full extent allowed by law and have done.  It is necessary to firmly establish that such behavior will not be tolerated and is not acceptable regarless of where the perpetrators are from.

We don't need to go, literally, "medieval on their ass[es]".