Richard Writhen Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Good individuals do exist in Grimdark. Like Ned Stark, however, the other characters don't exactly know how to deal with them. Like IRL indeed, "pure" good or evil archetypes are rare, few and far between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 14, 2016 Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 I think this is good reading for everyone.The Fate of Grimdark the Grimdarian and the Rise of Shiny Fantasyhttp://www.randy-henderson.com/2016/01/grimdark-vs-lighter-fantasy/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puntificator Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 I think this is good reading for everyone.The Fate of Grimdark the Grimdarian and the Rise of Shiny Fantasyhttp://www.randy-henderson.com/2016/01/grimdark-vs-lighter-fantasy/No it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Yeah I have to agree with puntificator. (Which indicates the end times have vine). Basically some guy I've never heard of complaining fantasy is too dark on his blog, and not even getting grimdark right. No way in hell does Wexker approach grimdark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 No way in hell does Wexker approach grimdark.I'm thinking Wexler is a mate of the writer, coz there's no way in which he fits together with the rest of the list he's in with, either in style or quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Really. Why doesn't it fit? No one here can seem to agree on what it means. Maybe wexler is the proto-grim darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 I'd say that every page of this thread I read, the less I know about what grimdark is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Eh, I think Wexler is one of the best writers around right now. It's just not grim or dark. It's oh what's the term for gunpowder era fantasy? It's that. And awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Eh, I think Wexler is one of the best writers around right now. It's just not grim or dark. It's oh what's the term for gunpowder era fantasy? It's that. And awesome.Flintlock fantasy, apparently. Maybe you should start an appreciation thread for that...I've only read the first one of his Shadow Campaigns, I didn't hate it but it felt a bit tame to me - like, I don't need my stories to be grim and dark but if you're writing a military fantasy and it's not really grim or dark at all it feels a little off. I have heard the series gets better, though.I think mostly I was put off by the idea of someone putting Django Wexler and Nnedi Okorafor on the same list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Okorafor is the only one on that list I haven't read. From impressions on good reads I get people either love her or hate her. Seems to equally divided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Her writing is very strange, very intense and very angry on a number of uncomfortable subjects, so I can definitely understand why she divides. But for me Who Fears Death is an absolutely phenomenal work; it occupies a similar place in my headspace to something like Dune. If there's any justice, it should be a seminal piece of SFF for future generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Eh, I think Wexler is one of the best writers around right now. It's just not grim or dark. It's oh what's the term for gunpowder era fantasy? It's that. And awesome.Again, we agree with each other. I dig some Wexler. Although I think it's safely in the 'Fantasy' category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 Her writing is very strange, very intense and very angry on a number of uncomfortable subjects, so I can definitely understand why she divides. But for me Who Fears Death is an absolutely phenomenal work; it occupies a similar place in my headspace to something like Dune. If there's any justice, it should be a seminal piece of SFF for future generations.All I know is a lot of my friends who consider themselves feminists got into a super mega ultra death fight over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 14, 2016 Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 Grimdark Magazine 6# is out today.Grimdark 6# on Amazon.com Eh, I think Wexler is one of the best writers around right now. It's just not grim or dark. It's oh what's the term for gunpowder era fantasy? It's that. And awesome.Alas, the only Django Wexler book I've read is his HILARIOUS debugger novellas.I need to correct that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I'd say that every page of this thread I read, the less I know about what grimdark is. I think that's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I'd say that every page of this thread I read, the less I know about what grimdark is. Well, that all depends where you mean "grimdark" or "Grimdark" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 I'd say that every page of this thread I read, the less I know about what grimdark is. Honestly, I don't think there's that much disagreement. It's just that most people here are invested enough to want to get into the nitty-gritty details.It's kind of like describing Star Trek. Get a thread of a dozen hardcore Trekkies and some lesser Trekkers and you're going to be completely unable to describe what Star Trek is about as they get into debates about optimistic future, exploration, Gene Roddenberry's vision, and specific minutia. When, in fact, it's pretty easy for normal people to just say, "Dark and Gritty Fantasy/Sci-Fi."Edit:Rather than try to explain WHAT grimdark is, I'm going to say WHY I like it. For me, grimdark is a work which takes the gloves off for the protagonists. One of the problems with a lot of fiction, IMHO, is the character shields. Not, necessarilly, that you know everyone is going to make it through the story intact but that it's going to be a story which doesn't fundamentally change them or challenge them.Luke Skywalker is a great character and one which I will always treasure but the most important part of his story arc is the discovery that he can't trust Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda. His choice is challenged and that makes it strong but what if there really was a place where he might end up joining the Empire or the Second Death Star attack fails miserably?The best grimdark stories don't really provide the magic bullet or Kirk solution which makes everything alright in the end. They're stories about living with situations that don't, necessarily, get better. In grimdark, characters can win small victories or achieve some measure of peace but are just as likely to meet the same sort of fate as Jack Nicholson's character in Chinatown. The system is unbeatable so you just move on.The good thing about grimdark for me is there's rarely any easy answers or answers at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Honestly, I don't think there's that much disagreement. It's just that most people here are invested enough to want to get into the nitty-gritty details.It's kind of like describing Star Trek. Get a thread of a dozen hardcore Trekkies and some lesser Trekkers and you're going to be completely unable to describe what Star Trek is about as they get into debates about optimistic future, exploration, Gene Roddenberry's vision, and specific minutia. When, in fact, it's pretty easy for normal people to just say, "Dark and Gritty Fantasy/Sci-Fi."Edit:Rather than try to explain WHAT grimdark is, I'm going to say WHY I like it. For me, grimdark is a work which takes the gloves off for the protagonists. One of the problems with a lot of fiction, IMHO, is the character shields. Not, necessarilly, that you know everyone is going to make it through the story intact but that it's going to be a story which doesn't fundamentally change them or challenge them.Luke Skywalker is a great character and one which I will always treasure but the most important part of his story arc is the discovery that he can't trust Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda. His choice is challenged and that makes it strong but what if there really was a place where he might end up joining the Empire or the Second Death Star attack fails miserably?The best grimdark stories don't really provide the magic bullet or Kirk solution which makes everything alright in the end. They're stories about living with situations that don't, necessarily, get better. In grimdark, characters can win small victories or achieve some measure of peace but are just as likely to meet the same sort of fate as Jack Nicholson's character in Chinatown. The system is unbeatable so you just move on.The good thing about grimdark for me is there's rarely any easy answers or answers at all.That's just cynical fiction. Nothing new that requires a whole set of parameters. We get it, good guys get screwed. Nothing new there. Not sure I agree with your definition though. Again. Books about dragons and shit with bad words in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnar of Skagos Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I'd say that every page of this thread I read, the less I know about what grimdark is. How Can Grimdark Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 I'm still trying to figure out what urban fantasy is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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