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Crackpot: What does Jeyne Poole know and how will her knowledge impact the story?

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When last we visited with Jeyne Poole, she had followed Theon's advice to continue to pretend to be Arya. As a result, Stannis sent her on the journey to Castle Black to be "reunited" with Jon Snow. Interesting, because it seems likely that Jeyne Poole knows a lot of things that, if only she tells the right people, could have consequences. Jeyne disappears from view in GoT, when Littlefinger offers to "find a place for her" and Cersei agrees with that solution for Sansa's "little friend." She reappears near the end of ASoS, when she is handed over to Steelshanks Walton as "Arya Stark" to be delivered to the Bolton's for a marriage between Ramsay and a Stark to cement both his claim on Winterfell and the Bolton's alliance with the Lannister. We know that Tywin Lannister is behind this because, a little earlier in ASoS, Tywin tells Tyrion:

Quote

Perhaps Littlefinger succeeded where you and Varys failed. Lord Bolton will wed the girl to his bastard son

So Littlefinger is in on the scheme. Maybe it's even his idea, suggested to Tywin as a way to cement the deal with Roose Bolton. But what happened to Jeyne between being given to Littlefinger and showing up on a horse to be escorted to Winterfell? The only evidence we have is that Theon (Reek) notices that her body is scarred with what he thinks are whip marks and that, when asked if she know how to please a man, she tells Ramsay that she has had training. She doesn't say she has experience, she says she has been trained, which seems odd if she was put to work as "just another whore" in one of Littlefinger's brothels.

This got me to thinking: who do we know is a sadist without much indication of a sexual component? Joffrey. No need to list the many instances where his sadism is on display, but is there any indication that he actually has sexual relations with the victims of his sadism or anyone else? I don't recall any of the POV characters having anything to say about Joffrey as a skirt-chaser or talking about any sexual escapades. The only clue I can think of comes from the show, where Littlefinger gives Roz (a whore from Winterfell) to Joffrey, who tortures her to death with a longbow in his bedroom. 

Which leads to my crackpot theory: Littlefinger gave Jeyne Poole to Joffrey to torture (maybe as a stand in for Sansa - I can picture Joffrey getting special pleasure knowing Jeyne was Sansa's friend). Jeyne's body bears the evidence of the torture, and she was surely raped. But, as a victim of sexual sadism, she wouldn't have a lot of experience using whatever man-pleasing skills she had been taught. If, in fact, Littlefinger used Jeyne as part of his manipulation of Joffrey, Jeyne might have been present during discussions about cutting off Ned's head rather than sending him to the Wall. Once Joffrey tired of her, Littlefinger turned her over to Tywin. Presumably, it was Littlefinger who explained to Jeyne why it was in her interest to go along with pretening to be Arya. Jeyne must have had some hope that it would work out, or she might not have been as apparently willing to play along. It seems likely that it was Littlefinger who coached her to become Arya and gave her hope. A mirror of Littlefinger coaching Sansa to become Alayne, giving her hope of a future.

So, Jeyne Poole must know many of Littlefinger's secrets. Littlefinger had to turn Jeyne over to Tywin before the Purple Wedding, but Jeyne may even know something about Littlefinger's plans for the Purple Wedding and the Dontos scheme to get Sansa away from KL.  Jeyne's on her way to Castle Black, where Jon is dead - or maybe just mostly dead.

The questions are, what else does Jeyne Poole know, and will her knowledge have any impact on the story?  One impact I can imagine is that, if/when Jon comes back, Jeyne tells Jon about Littlefinger, and Jon helps open Sansa's eyes. For that to happen, of course, somehow Sansa and Jon must be in the same place.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

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It seems to me that Jeyne Poole went to Ramsay a virgin, otherwise her bride potential decreased. Of course, one can be raped and sexually assaulted without penetration. But no, I don't think she was given to Joffrey. LF would have known her potential to be used as an infiltrant or bride - she knows WF, the Stark family, and she is of nobility (not high landed nobility, but nobility nonetheless). LF would not  divulge his plans in front of her either.

But she was a witness to the Lannisters murdering Ned's household. Jaime saw her before she was sent off, and thus that the Lannisters were in on it,and of course Littlefinger being a man of the regime (which is known since he's Lord of HH). She seemed overall more perceptive of elements of the court than Sansa at the time - like Ilyn Payne being the king's justice and probably not liking it that Ned sent someone else to do his job.

I don't think though she'll be the one to inform Sansa. Sansa already overheard Lysa and at some point I think she will start to connect the dots herself, most likely when she feels secure enough of not being too dependent on him anymore for survival. And there's Lothar who knows a lot too.

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Sansa and Arya are so often compared but I think that comparing Jeyne and Sansa is much more interesting.
It's more apples to apples case rather than comparing apples and coconuts.

Both Sansa and Jeyne are there at Kings Landing when Stark household is massacred but I agree with sweetsunray that Jeyne has much better idea of what is happening.

Both are being "tutored" by Littlefinger only Jeyne is neither super high-born nor a doppelgänger of Petyr's long lost love so she ends up in a brothel.

Both have to pretend to be someone else, but Jeyne had to pretend to be other existing person and fool even people who briefly knew real Arya. It's very questionable if either of them has real success.

Both need to please very cruel and degraded human being like Joffrey and Ramsay, but Jeyne is actually made to marry Ramsay.

Both are married off for their "claim" to the men they did not choose.

Both are closely watched captives, but in this I give more points to Jeyne she did show some initiative and tried to make Theon escape with her before she married Ramsay.

Both follow someone else's plan and escape.

 

More to the topic. I don't think that Jeyne knows anything especially important aside of the fact she is not true Arya Stark. She knows Winterfell but so do Theon, Bran, Jon, women at Dreadfort. I doubt she is even aware that Littlefinger is behind her suffering. Sansa is the one who has clues about it. IMO I do not see Jeyne surviving long, Theon describes her face as corpse in snow. I think she will die while Jon would still think she is Arya, we will get some first class blind rage on his part from that.

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I don't think that Jeyne Poole was given to joffrey as a toy. Sandor can't barely stand members of the KG beating Sansa. He wouldn't allow Joff to rape little girls. And, after the Blackwater and The Hound's departure, there's still members of the Kinsguard like Balon Swann who wouldn't stand dragging an unwilling girl into Jofrrey's chambers. Let alone Cersei, who certainly would know about Joff's movements and leisures, and I don't think she would have tolerate such pastime. One thing is shooting cats or slapping Sansa a couple of times and another raping young girls. D&D went too far in the show.

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Yes, Ice Turtle...Sansa and Jeyne comparison is sensible and actually gives great result. Sansa compares herself to Jeyne often, and favoribly. This gives us soon the impression that Jeyne is silly and grasping beyond her station, without having Sansa's strength.

But Jeyne has no real illusions about her marriage prospects to a Lord. Her marriage prospects are more of the 'knight of the ...' or 'steward of ...' type. That's why she's so mean to Arya in the first place (she's envious that the horsefaced Arya has better prospects than she has). It's why George had her be fArya. She's be the only Northern girl with an inner motivation to be Arya, Ned's second daughter, and show she'd be animproved version of it (at least in her mind) - prettier, more ladylike.

Still, she's a young girl and can have a crush on whomever she wishes, even if she knows she won't be marrying him... like Beric. And of all the knights at court, she actually manages to have a crush on perhaps the closest we've seen to a true knight so far.

She can see Ilyn Payne as a man who might have a grudge and with a certain position, beyond "he's scary!", and realize that Ned insulted that man greatly by overlooking him (of course he had his reasons to not send a Lannister man to kill another Lannister man).

And then she witnesses the killings at the Tower, mentions the Hound breaking down the door, and cries over it (who wouldn't after being witness to that massacre). Sansa hears the info, but she blocks it out completely, wondering whether outsiders attacked the Red Keep, instead of there having been a Lannister-Stark fight. She thinks of Jeyne as the child. But Jeyne is actually the more adult of the two, gaping at Sansa trying to hang on to this idea that everything is fine and dandy between Starks and Lannisters. Of course, there are fundamental psychological reasons why Sansa refuses to connect the dots - she went to inform on her father's plans to Cersei. It's not what got her father killed and chances were very low that Arya and Sansa would have managed to escape KL before Cersei moved against the Tower of the Hand... but Sansa doesn't know that either.

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Interesting post. Jeyne has the knowledge to destroy a bunch of people who deserve it. She could potentially wreck LF by telling people what LF did to her and she could seriously cause harm to the Boltons by telling people about her scam marriage.
After all the shit Jeyne has been through, I would like to see her get some payback.

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Interesting post. Jeyne has the knowledge to destroy a bunch of people who deserve it. She could potentially wreck LF by telling people what LF did to her and she could seriously cause harm to the Boltons by telling people about her scam marriage.

After all the shit Jeyne has been through, I would like to see her get some payback.

I've a real fear that she'll be unmasked as a fake, and Stannis will burn her for treason, at the insistence of his Northern soldiers. She only has Theon to vouch for her, and his credibility is zero.

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I've a real fear that she'll be unmasked as a fake, and Stannis will burn her for treason, at the insistence of his Northern soldiers. She only has Theon to vouch for her, and his credibility is zero.

Then I would have to punch Stannis in the face for that. Hopefully, she comes under Jon's protection somehow. Then again GRRM likes to disappoint us.

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When last we visited with Jeyne Poole, she had followed Theon's advice to continue to pretend to be Arya. As a result, Stannis sent her on the journey to Castle Black to be "reunited" with Jon Snow. Interesting, because it seems likely that Jeyne Poole knows a lot of things that, if only she tells the right people, could have consequences. Jeyne disappears from view in GoT, when Littlefinger offers to "find a place for her" and Cersei agrees with that solution for Sansa's "little friend." She reappears near the end of ASoS, when she is handed over to Steelshanks Walton as "Arya Stark" to be delivered to the Bolton's for a marriage between Ramsay and a Stark to cement both his claim on Winterfell and the Bolton's alliance with the Lannister. We know that Tywin Lannister is behind this because, a little earlier in ASoS, Tywin tells Tyrion:

Perhaps Littlefinger succeeded where you and Varys failed. Lord Bolton will wed the girl to his bastard son

So Littlefinger is in on the scheme. Maybe it's even his idea, suggested to Tywin as a way to cement the deal with Roose Bolton. But what happened to Jeyne between being given to Littlefinger and showing up on a horse to be escorted to Winterfell? The only evidence we have is that Theon (Reek) notices that her body is scarred with what he thinks are whip marks and that, when asked if she know how to please a man, she tells Ramsay that she has had training. She doesn't say she has experience, she says she has been trained, which seems odd if she was put to work as "just another whore" in one of Littlefinger's brothels.

This got me to thinking: who do we know is a sadist without much indication of a sexual component? Joffrey. No need to list the many instances where his sadism is on display, but is there any indication that he actually has sexual relations with the victims of his sadism or anyone else? I don't recall any of the POV characters having anything to say about Joffrey as a skirt-chaser or talking about any sexual escapades. The only clue I can think of comes from the show, where Littlefinger gives Roz (a whore from Winterfell) to Joffrey, who tortures her to death with a longbow in his bedroom.

Which leads to my crackpot theory: Littlefinger gave Jeyne Poole to Joffrey to torture (maybe as a stand in for Sansa - I can picture Joffrey getting special pleasure knowing Jeyne was Sansa's friend). Jeyne's body bears the evidence of the torture, and she was surely raped. But, as a victim of sexual sadism, she wouldn't have a lot of experience using whatever man-pleasing skills she had been taught. If, in fact, Littlefinger used Jeyne as part of his manipulation of Joffrey, Jeyne might have been present during discussions about cutting off Ned's head rather than sending him to the Wall. Once Joffrey tired of her, Littlefinger turned her over to Tywin. Presumably, it was Littlefinger who explained to Jeyne why it was in her interest to go along with pretening to be Arya. Jeyne must have had some hope that it would work out, or she might not have been as apparently willing to play along. It seems likely that it was Littlefinger who coached her to become Arya and gave her hope. A mirror of Littlefinger coaching Sansa to become Alayne, giving her hope of a future.

So, Jeyne Poole must know many of Littlefinger's secrets. Littlefinger had to turn Jeyne over to Tywin before the Purple Wedding, but Jeyne may even know something about Littlefinger's plans for the Purple Wedding and the Dontos scheme to get Sansa away from KL. Jeyne's on her way to Castle Black, where Jon is dead - or maybe just mostly dead.

The questions are, what else does Jeyne Poole know, and will her knowledge have any impact on the story? One impact I can imagine is that, if/when Jon comes back, Jeyne tells Jon about Littlefinger, and Jon helps open Sansa's eyes. For that to happen, of course, somehow Sansa and Jon must be in the same place.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

I don't think Ramsay cares if she's a virgin. She's just another of his playthings.

I imagine she was repeatedly raped and abused, as part of her "training". Sometimes, girls who get kidnapped into prostitution are raped repeatedly by the pimps, to make them more tractable, before being hired out. The whipping was either a punishment, or done for gratification.

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I agree that Jeyne might be aware of Littlefinger's scheme to some degree. Although I doubt she'd be bright enough to realize the extent of his scheming and the consequences of his plan.

Jeyne has a lot in common with both Sansa and Arya, but her situation is a lot closer to Sansa.

Jeyne Has her wish comes true, however, unlike Sansa who never got any of her wish. Jeyne got to marry a lord of the castle, the trueborn lord of Winterfell even. Although her wish came true in a twisted form.

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The absence of evidence that Littlefinger used Jeyne as part of his manipulation of Joffrey is what makes the theory crackpot. I agree that Littlefinger would not reveal more to Jeyne than what she could see for herself, but Joffrey isn't as disciplined and I could see him reveling in telling Jeyne all about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion not to mention the Lannister role in the Red Wedding. But sweetsunray and Ashur and Ice Turtle are probably right - all those things are knowable without Jeyne's testimony. What Jeyne brings is personal knowledge of how Littlefinger operates.

Another intriguing thought is that, once Jeyne arrives at Castle Black as Arya, she will be seen as "next of kin" of (mostly) dead Jon. Will she then be at the center of the aftermath of Jon's death?

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The whole Jeyne Poole / fArya plot has always had many ways it could go wrong.

Either Littlefinger is closing his eyes to a situation he does not wish to acknowledge, or he fails to recognize the caliber of disaster indicated by the loss of his Poole fable from his community. 

He's got trouble. (with a capital T that rhymes with P that stands for Poole.)

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I doubt Jeyne was given to anyone specific, likely she was simply beaten into compliance and put to work in the brothel, young girls tend to get the best price and she is high born to boot, so a "speciality" of the house. 

I think the interesting thing, is that if Sansa discovers her fate LF had best watch out, we know Sansa still thinks of Jeyne, and that they were real BFF's. 

I want her to survive, but of course that doesn't mean she will. But certainly her knowing it was LF who did all this to her is dangerous, should she get to Jon, and tell him her story, and then eventually he be able to pass that to Sansa. Or Should she have told Theon, and Sansa meet him again at any point. Then I think that knowledge would be part of LF's downfall. 

Another thing worth noting is that Bran knows she has married Ramsey Snow-Bolton and did so under the guise of being Arya. he was undoubtedly in the tree at that time. 

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12 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It seems to me that Jeyne Poole went to Ramsay a virgin, otherwise her bride potential decreased. Of course, one can be raped and sexually assaulted without penetration. But no, I don't think she was given to Joffrey. LF would have known her potential to be used as an infiltrant or bride - she knows WF, the Stark family, and she is of nobility (not high landed nobility, but nobility nonetheless). LF would not  divulge his plans in front of her either.

But she was a witness to the Lannisters murdering Ned's household. Jaime saw her before she was sent off, and thus that the Lannisters were in on it,and of course Littlefinger being a man of the regime (which is known since he's Lord of HH). She seemed overall more perceptive of elements of the court than Sansa at the time - like Ilyn Payne being the king's justice and probably not liking it that Ned sent someone else to do his job.

I don't think though she'll be the one to inform Sansa. Sansa already overheard Lysa and at some point I think she will start to connect the dots herself, most likely when she feels secure enough of not being too dependent on him anymore for survival. And there's Lothar who knows a lot too.

Given that she is a fake Stark, would the Boltons even care if she were a fake virgin as well?  The only one who would really know is Ramsay, and I'm not sure he would really care; surely not enough to complain.  LF wouldn't have been saving her for the Boltons because they didn't change sides until well after Ned's execution, probably sometime after Theon's takeover of Winterfell, or even after Blackwater, although it's possible he was keeping her a virgin for other purposes.  We honestly don't know all that happened.  I have always assumed, however, that the information she might give Sansa would relate to her own treatment by LF, possibly causing a breach between Sansa and LF

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7 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Given that she is a fake Stark, would the Boltons even care if she were a fake virgin as well?  The only one who would really know is Ramsay, and I'm not sure he would really care; surely not enough to complain.  LF wouldn't have been saving her for the Boltons because they didn't change sides until well after Ned's execution, probably sometime after Theon's takeover of Winterfell, or even after Blackwater, although it's possible he was keeping her a virgin for other purposes.  We honestly don't know all that happened.  I have always assumed, however, that the information she might give Sansa would relate to her own treatment by LF, possibly causing a breach between Sansa and LF

I don't think it would matter if she was a virgin or not, but I think that she was. A lot of men in Westeros believe that taking virginity of a girl is somehow more desirable than common sex, but Jeyne at the time of her wedding to Ramsay was still too young and childish looking for Littlefinger to get the best price for her. LF had been likely waiting till she would be a little older only the Bolton scheme came in.

Now Littlefinger would get a good price or other rewards if Joffrey asked for Jeyne, but why would he? I doubt he even remembered someone like Jeyne existed. If he wanted a girl, though I doubt he did Littlefinger would probably offer some common girl. Truth to be told book Joffrey always seemed rather sexually immature to me. Which wasn't even that abnormal at his age. 

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30 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Given that she is a fake Stark, would the Boltons even care if she were a fake virgin as well?  The only one who would really know is Ramsay, and I'm not sure he would really care; surely not enough to complain.  LF wouldn't have been saving her for the Boltons because they didn't change sides until well after Ned's execution, probably sometime after Theon's takeover of Winterfell, or even after Blackwater, although it's possible he was keeping her a virgin for other purposes.  We honestly don't know all that happened.  I have always assumed, however, that the information she might give Sansa would relate to her own treatment by LF, possibly causing a breach between Sansa and LF

LF would care, not knowing yet as whose bride she could come in handy. House Poole is a noble house. Not an important one, but one never knows. He makes sure a whole region's army is kept out of the war. He stored a lot of food and has refused to sell it, and still does. And you think he would not make sure to save the virginity of a girl of noble birth, which is a commodity, before marrying her off? A girl can be forced to please men without penetration, and be trained in those ways. That's most likely how she was trained: hand and blow jobs.

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On 31.1.2016 at 7:11 PM, Ibbison from Ibben said:

The whole Jeyne Poole / fArya plot has always had many ways it could go wrong.

Either Littlefinger is closing his eyes to a situation he does not wish to acknowledge, or he fails to recognize the caliber of disaster indicated by the loss of his Poole fable from his community. 

He's got trouble. (with a capital T that rhymes with P that stands for Poole.)

the fact that even cersei and the sand snakes are able to count 1 and 1 together to see that Jon snow as LC and Stannis means trouble  shows us how out of depth LF IMHO.   

not to mention should the truth come out LF will the target of EVERYBODY

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