Stark cousins

[Queen Alienor]

So, this might have been discussed before, and if it has, I'm sorry, but I was just looking at the Stark family tree from TWOIAF, and am now wondering about it.

Especially, this family tree states that Lyarra Stark, mother of Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen, had two cousins named Brandon and Benjen Stark, both of whom had issue. That means that either Artos Stark, the brother of Lyarras father Rodrik Stark, was much, much older than Lyarra's father and therefore his sons were much older than Lyarra herself, or at the time that Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen were children, there were at least two or three cousins with the Stark name running around.

Yet, they are never mentioned, never show up to help or claim Winterfell, don't seem to have played a part in Robert's Rebellion and aren't considered by Catelyn at all when she tries to convince Robb not to name Jon heir. (Admittedly, as Edwyle Starks (the greatgrandfather) sister Jocelyn's line probably takes precedence over the line of Willam Starks (the greatgreatgrandfather) brother, but it still seems odd that they were never mentioned at all.)

What happened to those Stark cousins? Technically, it could have all been girls who got married, or boys who joined the NW, I guess, but shouldn't the fact that those children have to have the Stark name make them stand out so that they would at least be mentioned at some point? And if it were all girls who got married, why didn't their children come to claim WF in their name?

[Lord Varys]

We know that Catelyn and Robb consider the claims of Jocelyn Stark's descendants when they discuss his succession. Artos' descendants never come up, suggesting either that his line did not live to Robb's day, or that they are too far removed and obscure to be important.

What we can safely say, though, is that there are no other male cadet branches running around in Westeros in the time of AGoT. The only lordly branch of House Stark is Eddard's.

My guess is that Artos' sons and/or grandchildren may either have died during the long winter of 230-236 AC, during another winter, or perhaps during some other war. We don't yet know whether any Stark fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings (I'm not so sure about that) but Artos sons and grandsons certainly could depending on the time of their birth.

If Artos had any granddaughters married into a powerful northern house one would assume that this would have come up in the discussion of the succession. Such descendants could have been alternatives to Jocelyn Stark's Vale descendants.

In general winter and cold should always be a good explanation for the culling of the Stark family tree. If the Starks don't lose a bunch of their own every winter then this whole stuff about winter being bad and all simply would just be talk.

[Queen Alienor]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We know that Catelyn and Robb consider the claims of Jocelyn Stark's descendants when they discuss his succession. Artos' descendants never come up, suggesting either that his line did not live to Robb's day, or that they are too far removed and obscure to be important.

What we can safely say, though, is that there are no other male cadet branches running around in Westeros in the time of AGoT. The only lordly branch of House Stark is Eddard's.

If Artos had any granddaughters married into a powerful northern house one would assume that this would have come up in the discussion of the succession. Such descendants could have been alternatives to Jocelyn Stark's Vale descendants.

That's what I thought so strange, because if you are considering Jocelyn Stark's Vale descendants as heirs for WF, Artos Starks descendants really aren't that much more removed. And any daughter of Artos Stark who had married into, idk, the Manderlys or the Glovers or even the Reeds or the Cerwyns would have definitively caused Catelyn to mention them in her attempt to convince Robb to not name Jon his heir, especially given that one of Robbs arguments against Jocelyn Stark's descendants was that they are not northerners.

Also, a northern family with one of Artos Starks granddaughters for a grandmother would surely have mentioned that at some point during the discussions about Robbs heir. They would have likely hoped for a Harry the Heir situation, in which they would take on the Stark name and rule the North if Robb were to die without issue.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

My guess is that Artos' sons and/or grandchildren may either have died during the long winter of 230-236 AC, during another winter, or perhaps during some other war. We don't yet know whether any Stark fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings (I'm not so sure about that) but Artos sons and grandsons certainly could depending on the time of their birth.

In general winter and cold should always be a good explanation for the culling of the Stark family tree. If the Starks don't lose a bunch of their own every winter then this whole stuff about winter being bad and all simply would just be talk.

Winter and the war seem to be the most plausible explanation, though it still seems a bit weird that nobody ever talks about them.

[Lord Varys]

On 11.2.2016 at 4:47 PM, Queen Alienor said:

That's what I thought so strange, because if you are considering Jocelyn Stark's Vale descendants as heirs for WF, Artos Starks descendants really aren't that much more removed. And any daughter of Artos Stark who had married into, idk, the Manderlys or the Glovers or even the Reeds or the Cerwyns would have definitively caused Catelyn to mention them in her attempt to convince Robb to not name Jon his heir, especially given that one of Robbs arguments against Jocelyn Stark's descendants was that they are not northerners.

Also, a northern family with one of Artos Starks granddaughters for a grandmother would surely have mentioned that at some point during the discussions about Robbs heir. They would have likely hoped for a Harry the Heir situation, in which they would take on the Stark name and rule the North if Robb were to die without issue.

Winter and the war seem to be the most plausible explanation, though it still seems a bit weird that nobody ever talks about them.

Well, depending on Artos' age he could already have had children in the late 210s or so. In that case, his grandchildren could have long been dead by the time of the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and we really don't know if he had any great-grandchildren. But if that's the case then there would be a still a chance for them to die during Robert's Rebellion or the Greyjoy Rebellion.

Ned has no reason to remember any long-dead distant kin in AGoT if he doesn't even mention or think of his mother once, and his children wouldn't have had a chance to meet those distant kin.

One could speculate whether one of Ned's companions at the Tower of Joy was a descendant of Artos through the female line. Lord Willam Dustin could be one such, and considering that he seems to have been an only child there is good chance that his line would have died with him.

Robb's situation is much complicated than Robert Arryn's, though. Robert is a sickly child, his death was always a strong possibility, and Jon Arryn would have long recognized Harry as his heir presumptive (after Elbert and Denys Arryn died without issue) and then later as Robert's. The Arryn family tree had long been cut down to Jon Arryn's sole branch, and next in line would then be the descendants of his sister Alys of which Harrold Hardyng is the only survivor.

Eddard Stark, on the other hand, had five young children and never a reason to think who should succeed him should they all predecease him.

If a not-so-distantly-related Stark cousin had married into a very prominent Northern family (like the Manderlys, Dustins, Boltons, or Karstarks) then the descendants of such a union would have been in a very privileged position in Robb's court, especially after the alleged deaths of Bran and Rickon. But since there are no hints for that, and no hints for any Northmen making moves to depose the Boltons on the basis of their own ancient claims to Winterfell through some daughter, there is a pretty good chance that no great house of the North can boast to be closer related to the Starks than all the other houses.

If some Stark cousins still survive besides those in the Vale they might actually be non-noble branches or on petty lord/clansmen level, effectively incapable of making a good claim to Winterfell.

But I really don't think Robb would ever have chosen some distant cousin - even if he had the name Stark or was a Manderly or Karstark through the male line - as his heir instead of Jon. With Bran and Rickon dead, and no heirs of his own body, he wants to hand Winterfell to his father's other son to continue the line of Eddard Stark, not give the North to some distant kinsman who was never part of his family.

[Queen Alienor]

True enough, I think. I don't think it will ever be fully cleared up, so we'll just have to contend ourselves with "died ages ago" and/or "married into non-noble branches".

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But I really don't think Robb would ever have chosen some distant cousin - even if he had the name Stark or was a Manderly or Karstark through the male line - as his heir instead of Robb. With Bran and Rickon dead, and no heirs of his own body, he wants to hand Winterfell to his father's other son to continue the line of Eddard Stark, not to hand the North to some distant kinsman who was never part of his family.

Oh, I don't think he would. I just think Catelyn would have at least mentioned it, given that she was pretty adamant that Jon should not inherit WF.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 hours ago, Queen Alienor said:

Winter and the war seem to be the most plausible explanation, though it still seems a bit weird that nobody ever talks about them.

Maybe Edwyle was on bad terms with them and they had little contact with Edwyle or his children. It is not like we even get names of the Starks closet relatives in the Vale so I'm not sure why they would have more interaction with these even more distant relations.

Even if some grandson or greatgrandson was part of the Northern army in the south there is little reason why he would be mentioned given he is not a Great Lord and would have few, if any, men to command.

[direpupy]

I remember that it was mentioned once that there where still Stark's of lesser branches around i believe GRRM said in a SSM that they where around White Harbor but i am not a 100% sure.

[Jak Scaletongue]

14 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Maybe Edwyle was on bad terms with them and they had little contact with Edwyle or his children. It is not like we even get names of the Starks closet relatives in the Vale so I'm not sure why they would have more interaction with these even more distant relations.

I think we're meant to work out the Stark Vale cousins ourselves.  Jocelyn's daughters married a Templeton, Corbray and a Waynwood.

One answer could be simply - Lyonel and Lyn Corbray and Anya Waynwood and her sons.  Still don't know the Templeton, though.

It IS entirely possible one or more of the daughters married second sons, so these aren't the *only* answers.  But Lyn and Anya are currently pretty big players in Sansa's Vale chapters, so they'd be my first guess!

[Lemon of Lemonwood]

Or we have another House Arryn of Gulltown situation. 
They became either too obscure or married merchants and are snubbed by the rest of the family. 

[Endymion I Targaryen]

I can think of these:

• There are lesser poor branches of house Stark in the North which have been alienated (like house Arryn).The North is a large place and the Starks are odd people.
• There are branches out of the North (house Rogers or Jocelyn's descendants).
• Some Starks were sent to the Wall.
• Many died during the wars (Robert's Rebellion,Greyjoy Rebellion,War of the Ninepenny Kings,winters,wars with the Wildlings,etc).

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, King Endymion Targaryen said:

I can think of these:

• There are lesser poor branches of house Stark in the North which have been alienated (like house Arryn).The North is a large place and the Starks are odd people.
• There are branches out of the North (house Rogers or Jocelyn's descendants).
• Some Starks were sent to the Wall.
• Many died during the wars (Robert's Rebellion,Greyjoy Rebellion,War of the Ninepenny Kings,winters,wars with the Wildlings,etc).

The Wall thing always has to be kept in mind, too. If things looked fine for the Starks in the early years of Aerys II (after Rickard Stark had had his three sons) male descendants of Artos could have decided that they weren't needed as potential spares and joined the Night's Watch. The Starks do this kind of thing, and they may have long died on some ranging before Benjen Stark joined the Night's Watch.

We know from the Stark family tree as well as from the Yandel and Gyldayn that Torrhen Stark had multiple sons - there were many cadet branches of House Stark at multiple times, but all of them either died out or disappeared. 

If George finally gets around writing the Winterfell Dunk & Egg story we might get a glimpse how things stood at that castle in a time when multiple branches of House Stark existed, and what their relations were to the (nominal) head of the family. Ned suggests that Bran would one day command a keep in Robb's name - that could be a hint that younger sons of House Stark usually were expected to serve their lordly brothers in some official capacity.

[Nittanian]

On 3/9/2016 at 8:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

Ned suggests that Bran would one day command a keep in Robb's name - that could be a hint that younger sons of House Stark usually were expected to serve their lordly brothers in some official capacity.

GRRM suggests the same here..

Quote

Yet being a landless son of a noble family doesn't prevent one from marriage (as it did in the middle ages). So, is a lord in Westeros bound by law and custom to support his relatives with a designated portion of his income?

No. Some do (the Freys, the Lannisters). Some don't (Gregor Clegane with Sandor). Some put their excess relatives to work (the Freys again) in the castle, or give them vassal holdfasts (the Starks and Targaryens).

 

[Luddagain]

GRRM rarelyb drops stuff in for no reason.

We do not actually KNOW what happened to Lynara Stark.  I suspect there was some huge family division.

Perhaps Lynara and these other Starks had "wolf blood" and went across the wall.or are over on Skagos.

Also there is a whole band of Stark cousins over in Essos. These were the ones who did NOT accept the rule of the Targs.

[Eli Stark]

I am no expert, and am just throwing out a possibility as to why no one else has jumped forward with any claims.  Most of the important Northern families took an active part in the rebellion against the crown, and many of them have key family members held hostage by the Iron Throne or the Freys.  This is not the most ideal time to push forward your claim.  The IT and Frey's who hold key northern hostages are claiming to have Arya Stark, who would hold priority over any distant relative's claim, and are marrying her off to the Bolton's.

If anybody has plans to press their claim in the future, they may simply be playing along for now similar to what the Manderley's were doing as long as his son was held hostage by the IT.