Lost Melnibonean Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 42 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: If Loras giving Sansa the rose earlier that day would have been the reason of his behavior, I would expect him to have acted that way the entire evening (or at the very least, make remarks regarding Loras the entire evening). Since that didn't happen, and it is only after Robert and Cersei's public disagreement that his behavior takes a turn for the worst, I suspect that's the cultprit. There is this... Quote Sansa looked at him and trembled, afraid that he might ignore her or, worse, turn hateful again and send her weeping from the table. Instead Joffrey smiled and kissed her hand, handsome and gallant as any prince in the songs, and said, "Ser Loras has a keen eye for beauty, sweet lady." "He was too kind," she demurred, trying to remain modest and calm, though her heart was singing. "Ser Loras is a true knight. Do you think he will win tomorrow, my lord?" "No," Joffrey said. "My dog will do for him, or perhaps my uncle Jaime. And in a few years, when I am old enough to enter the lists, I shall do for them all." Sansa II, Game 29 He only becomes distant after his father argues with the queen and humiliates Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: Over for the man, but not necessarily for the woman in a male-dominated society. First, we should note that the issue would normally only arise when a noble has been defeated in war or convicted of a high crime. In those cases, the disposition of the family would depend on the preference of the victor or the liege lord/king. If the marriage is over for one, it is over for the other. There is nothing that suggests that, in Tyrion's case, Sansa would still be considered to be married if Tyrion had been allowed to take the black (and had actually taken the vows). Whether the wife would be allowed to live in her husband's castle, is another thing entirely. She could become a hostage to the crown, surely, and when that happens the crown gets a say in who she might wed, but nothing suggests that she cannot wed again while her former husband, now a sworn brother, lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 34 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: If the marriage is over for one, it is over for the other. There is nothing that suggests that, in Tyrion's case, Sansa would still be considered to be married if Tyrion had been allowed to take the black (and had actually taken the vows). Whether the wife would be allowed to live in her husband's castle, is another thing entirely. She could become a hostage to the crown, surely, and when that happens the crown gets a say in who she might wed, but nothing suggests that she cannot wed again while her former husband, now a sworn brother, lives. I disagree. If a married man were to take the black, he would foreswear his wife. But that would not necessarily abrogate the vows of the wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Can anyone tell me what this is about? Quote When they had first come to King's Landing, she used to have bad dreams about getting lost in the castle. Father said the Red Keep was smaller than Winterfell, but in her dreams it had been immense, an endless stone maze with walls that seemed to shift and change behind her. She would find herself wandering down gloomy halls past faded tapestries, descending endless circular stairs, darting through courtyards or over bridges, her shouts echoing unanswered. In some of the rooms the red stone walls would seem to drip blood, and nowhere could she find a window. Sometimes she would hear her father's voice, but always from a long way off, and no matter how hard she ran after it, it would grow fainter and fainter, until it faded to nothing and Arya was alone in the dark. Arya III, Game 32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ckram Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 @Lost Melnibonean I don't know if you have already checked these, but: The Citadel considers that it would be an ominous dream, an allegory to the future events of AGOT and how Arya will wander aimlessly after that. There are those who are more pragmatic and bet that those dreams would be warg dreams as a cat wandering around Maegor's Holdfast's passages, but Arya didn't realize it. And there are still those who see similarities between this dream and Jon's dream of empty Winterfell, which could be a reference to the afterlife or an indication that Jon and Arya are also united on an unconscious level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 38 minutes ago, Ckram said: @Lost Melnibonean I don't know if you have already checked these, but: The Citadel considers that it would be an ominous dream, an allegory to the future events of AGOT and how Arya will wander aimlessly after that. There are those who are more pragmatic and bet that those dreams would be warg dreams as a cat wandering around Maegor's Holdfast's passages, but Arya didn't realize it. And there are still those who see similarities between this dream and Jon's dream of empty Winterfell, which could be a reference to the afterlife or an indication that Jon and Arya are also united on an unconscious level. Thanks. I think the Citadel's comment is pretty close to the mark. It's a foreshadowing of Cersei's purge, Eddard’s fate, and Arya's reaction to it. Quote When they had first come to King's Landing, she used to have bad dreams about getting lost in the castle. Father said the Red Keep was smaller than Winterfell, but in her dreams it had been immense, an endless stone maze with walls that seemed to shift and change behind her. She would find herself wandering down gloomy halls past faded tapestries, descending endless circular stairs, darting through courtyards or over bridges, her shouts echoing unanswered. That first bit is Eddard in King's Landing out of his element in a nest of adders. Quote In some of the rooms the red stone walls would seem to drip blood, and nowhere could she find a window. Sometimes she would hear her father's voice, but always from a long way off, and no matter how hard she ran after it, it would grow fainter and fainter, until it faded to nothing and Arya was alone in the dark. And that second bit appears to be the Ned losing his head, Arya's more immediate reaction, and her sojourn through the Riverlands trying to return to her family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Anna Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I don't know if this is the right place but it doesn't warrant a new thread I think, so What if the Dance of Dragons 2.0 is not a conflict betwen Aegon and Daenerys, at least not all the way through? They could start as enemies but then reach an understanding and become allies (maybe against a common enemy, the others?). Could Martin subvert the readers' expectations this way? I don't know, it's just something I thought about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 24 minutes ago, Lady Anna said: I don't know if this is the right place but it doesn't warrant a new thread I think, so What if the Dance of Dragons 2.0 is not a conflict betwen Aegon and Daenerys, at least not all the way through? They could start as enemies but then reach an understanding and become allies (maybe against a common enemy, the others?). Could Martin subvert the readers' expectations this way? I don't know, it's just something I thought about. I think it goes the other way, like Tyrion suggested... Quote "I told you, I know our little queen. Let her hear that her brother Rhaegar's murdered son is still alive, that this brave boy has raised the dragon standard of her forebears in Westeros once more, that he is fighting a desperate war to avenge his father and reclaim the Iron Throne for House Targaryen, hard-pressed on every side … and she will fly to your side as fast as wind and water can carry her. You are the last of her line, and this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer. The girl who drowned the slaver cities in blood rather than leave strangers to their chains can scarcely abandon her own brother's son in his hour of peril. And when she reaches Westeros, and meets you for the first time, you will meet as equals, man and woman, not queen and supplicant. How can she help but love you then, I ask you?" Tyrion Vi, Dance 22 The love won’t last, of course... Quote Spoiler It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate. "It is dragons." "Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don't be mad." "I'm not. They're coming." "How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?" Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died." Arianne I, Winds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I think it goes the other way, like Tyrion suggested... Tyrion Vi, Dance 22 The love won’t last, of course... Arianne I, Winds I think the problem willbe that Aegon won t have a desperate fight to get the IT. Things will go amazingly well for him and when danny arrives he will be married (probably with arianne) and will want danny to kneel to him and give him 1 or 2 dragons. Danny on the other hand will think he is the mummers dragon and think she is the rightful ruler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Anna Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I think it goes the other way, like Tyrion suggested... Tyrion Vi, Dance 22 The love won’t last, of course... Arianne I, Winds Oh I haven't read the sample chapters but maybe I should! Thanks for replying. Regarding that Tyrion quote, that's exactly how I see it happening. I don't think Dany would in her heart consider Aegon, her only living relative as far as she knows, as an enemy. I just don't see it in her character. Maybe things will start spiraling into violence from Aegon's end, and if he's not a Targaryen I could see how Dany could try to fight him. Do you think Jon will have something to do with the conflict as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, Lady Anna said: Oh I haven't read the sample chapters but maybe I should! Thanks for replying. Regarding that Tyrion quote, that's exactly how I see it happening. I don't think Dany would in her heart consider Aegon, her only living relative as far as she knows, as an enemy. I just don't see it in her character. Maybe things will start spiraling into violence from Aegon's end, and if he's not a Targaryen I could see how Dany could try to fight him. Do you think Jon will have something to do with the conflict as well? Given danny's arc so far what do you think will happen if she gets to westeros and Aegon is on the IT and a) is married b ) wants danny to be his queen and bond to a dragon c) wants danny to be part of the royal familly and acces to a dragon but doesn t want to marry her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: I disagree. If a married man were to take the black, he would foreswear his wife. But that would not necessarily abrogate the vows of the wife. When married following the customs of the Faith (as Tyrion and Sansa were), the septon who marries them declares man and wife to be "one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever". So if taking the black means for the man that he no longer is "one flesh, one heart, one soul" with his wife, how could his wife still be "one flesh, one heart, one soul" with him? Tyrion is clear, imo. If he takes the vows of the Night's Watch, the marriage is over. ("It would mean the end of his marriage [...]"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said: When married following the customs of the Faith (as Tyrion and Sansa were), the septon who marries them declares man and wife to be "one flesh, one heart, one soul, now and forever". So if taking the black means for the man that he no longer is "one flesh, one heart, one soul" with his wife, how could his wife still be "one flesh, one heart, one soul" with him? Tyrion is clear, imo. If he takes the vows of the Night's Watch, the marriage is over. ("It would mean the end of his marriage [...]"). I agree with this. Tywin wouldn t send tyrion to the NW if it would make sansa useless to gain the north... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, divica said: I think the problem willbe that Aegon won t have a desperate fight to get the IT. Things will go amazingly well for him and when danny arrives he will be married (probably with arianne) and will want danny to kneel to him and give him 1 or 2 dragons. Danny on the other hand will think he is the mummers dragon and think she is the rightful ruler. Could very well be. I think that's the most common view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darion Storm Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 @Lost Melnibonean I’m sorry but how can one person be married to someone while the other isn’t married to them? I get that this world is heavily male-dominated but this feels like a huge leap in logic. Why would widowed women be allowed to remarry but NW’ed women not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Anna Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 46 minutes ago, divica said: Given danny's arc so far what do you think will happen if she gets to westeros and Aegon is on the IT and a) is married b ) wants danny to be his queen and bond to a dragon c) wants danny to be part of the royal familly and acces to a dragon but doesn t want to marry her Assuming that happens and that's what Aegon would want then yeah I think Dany wouldn't accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 59 minutes ago, Lady Anna said: Oh I haven't read the sample chapters but maybe I should! Thanks for replying. Regarding that Tyrion quote, that's exactly how I see it happening. I don't think Dany would in her heart consider Aegon, her only living relative as far as she knows, as an enemy. I just don't see it in her character. Maybe things will start spiraling into violence from Aegon's end, and if he's not a Targaryen I could see how Dany could try to fight him. Do you think Jon will have something to do with the conflict as well? No. I think Jon will be on ice for a while and have his hands full up north. I agree that Daenerys will want to believe in Aegon. There is textual support for that theory in Clash--the first chapter after the Undying Ones. I suspect the three treasons will be at the heart of the split: Tyrion for all the gold of Casterly Rock and those outstanding notes owed to the Second Sons, Illyrio for the blood of the Blackfyre, and Aegon for love of Arianne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said: No. I think Jon will be on ice for a while and have his hands full up north. I agree that Daenerys will want to believe in Aegon. There is textual support for that theory in Clash--the first chapter after the Undying Ones. I suspect the three treasons will be at the heart of the split: Tyrion for all the gold of Casterly Rock and those outstanding notes owed to the Second Sons, Illyrio for the blood of the Blackfyre, and Aegon for love of Arianne. The betrayals & other sets of 3 from the undying fascinate me. What makes you think MMD or Jorah's betrayal are not counted in the 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Lady Anna said: Assuming that happens and that's what Aegon would want then yeah I think Dany wouldn't accept it. If Aegon and danny met each other before one of them gets to the IT I think they might be allies and even friends. But with Aegon having an easy conquest of the IT with a beautiful lady at his side and without any idea of when danny might come I think he will marry and become full of himself. He might even be a good king, but he will have too much pride to avoid a possible conflict with danny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: The betrayals & other sets of 3 from the undying fascinate me. What makes you think MMD or Jorah's betrayal are not counted in the 3? While MMD happened before the vision danny only finds out about jorah's betrayal after the vision. So I think jorah is the one who betrayed her for gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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