[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Reprecussions - Season 6, Tally-Ho

[Tijgy]

Was this already posted?

Quote

Episode 4: Book of the Stranger (May 15th)

Tyrion strikes a deal. Jorah and Daario undertake a difficult task. Jaime and Cerseitry to improve their situation.

Episode 5: The Door (May 22nd)

Tyrion seeks a strange ally. Bran learns a great deal. Brienne  goes on a mission. Arya is given a chance to prove herself.

http://watchersonthewall.com/titles-game-thrones-episodes-606-607-revealed/#more-64480

(Is Bran going to learn the powers of nature? Maybe how he can do some earthquakes? Please?)

And title for episode 6: Blood of my Blood (Something Dothraki)

for episode 7: The Broken Man 

[Prince of the North]

8 hours ago, apovsic said:

I would back you if the show was any good. But as it is, cutting the intro means that they would cut the only part that is remotely good (except for the city of Dorne part).

 

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I shudder at the thought of 5 more minutes at this point. Because it would mean 5 more minutes of St Tyrion, or Ramsay, or Carol, Larry, and third wheel Gregor. It would mean 5 more minutes of this extremely boring fanfic; at this point I'd rather GoT had 22 minutes like a sitcom. 

And on a side rant, I can't believe that all the stupid gets a pass because of some minor detail or other... Like what @OldGimletEye and someone else were saying upthread, how incredibly dumb it is that Jon executes the mutineers and immediately afterwards says "my watch is ended" [because he died]. If his watched ended when he died and came back, he has no business executing anyone as LC; he can kill them as Jon, not as the LC of the NW. But it's another thing that gets hand waved becuase everyone is so happy Olly died. So fucking stupid, and exactly part of the reason why the show runners get away with so much.

Oh, I completely agree!  I'm talking about how the lack of time, etc. was used as an excuse for making changes way back in season 3, for example.  What I'm getting at is that there really has been much more time available all along (if all episodes were 60 minutes long and take out all the stuff that's been made up out of whole cloth).  But, yeah, I know this is just wishful thinking because the show runners haven't been interested in actually bringing ASoIaF to the screen since, at least, the Red Wedding (and that's probably being generous). 

3 hours ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

In the UK they don't bother airing the previously on segment.

The fact that the episodes seem to be getting shorter and we're getting scenes that are the definition of filler (I don't think I've ever seen more empty filler than St. Tyrion's nonversation) even though there are only 20 episodes left to wrap everything up is very telling.

Yes, it is.

[Sir Loin Steak]

I'm going to make an obvious point, but as the writers have made it clear again and again that they don't understand it I felt the need to write it.

Honour isn't just some sort of abstract moral code. The appearance of honour is incredibly important when making a deal or forming a partnership, the parties involved have to have some sense that they can trust the others. In the modern world we have powerful states that enforce well-established and reliable legal systems, where (in theory if not in practice) justice is applied equally and impartially to all parties. Even with such a system, which provides recourse for things such as breaking contracts – we still find face-to-face negotiations when conducting business to be extremely important, we still need to get a sense of who we are dealing with.

Under a feudal system there were laws, but fairness and enforcement were very far from modern standards. Moreover, seeking the aid of the next tier up to resolve issues was both difficult and risky. Avoiding having to look to recourse or involving third parties at all, was extremely important so being able to trust who you were dealing with was essential. For life and death matters exponentially more so.

This is compounded even further under circumstance such as those of Westeros on the show, where the authority of the Crown has been completely nullified (Queen imprisoned by the Faith, can't even maintain control of the capital, further war over succession extremely likely), and the lords are in an every man for himself situation.

The Lannisters haven't spent generations developing the propaganda “A Lannister always pays his debts”, simply because they're rich and can throw money at problems. The mention of debt at all is kind of a clue there! Having the reputation for always paying back debts, makes trusting them in deals much less of an issue, and we see repeatedly how Tyrion is able to capitalise on this, even when temporarily cut off from calling upon his family's resources directly, in fact it's at precisely these times that it benefits them the most (it also works neatly as an implied threat).

It's no coincidence that the North, the harshest environment and most geographically spread out part of the Seven Kingdoms happens to have such strong taboos over guest right. It's long-term mutual self-interest, we see real world analogues to this everywhere, such as Japan which suffers frequent natural disasters, contributing a lot to relief efforts in other countries when such events strike.

You can pull a Red Wedding betrayal once for short-term gain, but it costs you dearly forever after, you make any future dealings for yourself extremely difficult (which means that gain has to be worth an awful lot). We see this in the books with Jaime's Kingslayer reputation, regardless of his reasons or how justified his actions may have been, he broke his sworn vow and so forever after people don't trust him to keep faith with them. We even see a shadow of this with Janos Bracken having completely undermined himself during the siege of Riverrun by making empty threats.

These same reasons underlie things like marriage pacts (which the show also fails to understand), they tie two houses together through blood, they essentially become one larger family (even if only for a generation). It's not simply a gift, it's a long-term commitment. The family is in theory the most trustworthy unit, then clans (which basically build out from that unit), after that it's a case of rapidly diminishing returns. Being a kinslayer is an immense taboo, not simply because you murdered a member of your own family, but because you can't even be trusted amongst those closest to you.

The importance of this and its ramifications are everywhere in the books: the maester's and Night's Watch (supposed) neutrality is primarily established by their vows and commitment not to have families, the same applies to the Kingsguard and to a lesser extent regular knights, the Iron Bank with it's formidable reputation, the Golden Company never breaking contract compared with the unreliability of the other mercenary companies, the prices the Faceless Men can command because they can be completely relied upon to succeed in their missions, the respect commanded by the Starks, the stereotyping and stigma against the Dornish in part due to indirect revenge and use of poison, the stigma of bastardy, etc.

That honour is so valued in the culture isn't because people are nice, it's the opposite, it's that trusting people is very difficult and dangerous.

[TheCasualObserver]

9 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

I'm go to make an obvious point, but as the writers have made it clear again and again that they don't understand it I felt the need to write it.

Honour isn't just some sort of abstract moral code. The appearance of honour is incredibly important when making a deal or forming a partnership, the parties involved have to have some sense that they can trust the others. In the modern world we have powerful states that enforce well-established and reliable legal systems, where (in theory if not in practice) justice is applied equally and impartially to all parties. Even with such a system, which provides recourse for things such as breaking contracts – we still find face-to-face negotiations when conducting business to be extremely important, we still need to get a sense of who we are dealing with.

Under a feudal system there were laws, but fairness and enforcement were very far from modern standards. Moreover, seeking the aid of the next tier up to resolve issues was both difficult and risky. Avoiding having to look to recourse or involving third parties at all, was extremely important so being able to trust who you were dealing with was essential. For life and death matters exponentially more so.

This is compounded even further under circumstance such as those of Westeros on the show, where the authority of the Crown has been completely nullified (Queen imprisoned by the Faith, can't even maintain control of the capital, further war over succession extremely likely), and the lords are in an every man for himself situation.

The Lannisters haven't spent generations developing the propaganda “A Lannister always pays his debts”, simply because they're rich and can throw money at problems. The mention of debt at all is kind of a clue there! Having the reputation for always paying back debts, makes trusting them in deals much less of an issue, and we see repeatedly how Tyrion is able to capitalise on this, even when temporarily cut off from calling upon his family's resources directly, in fact it's at precisely these times that it benefits them the most (it also works neatly as an implied threat).

It's no coincidence that the North, the harshest environment and most geographically spread out part of the Seven Kingdoms happens to have such strong taboos over guest right. It's long-term mutual self-interest, we see real world analogues to this everywhere, such as Japan which suffers frequent natural disasters, contributing a lot to relief efforts in other countries when such events strike.

You can pull a Red Wedding betrayal once for short-term gain, but it costs you dearly forever after, you make any future dealings for yourself extremely difficult (which means that gain has to be worth an awful lot). We see this in the books with Jaime's Kingslayer reputation, regardless of his reasons or how justified his actions may have been, he broke his sworn vow and so forever after people don't trust him to keep faith with them. We even see a shadow of this with Janos Bracken having completely undermined himself during the siege of Riverrun by making empty threats.

These same reasons underlie things like marriage pacts (which the show also fails to understand), they tie two houses together through blood, they essentially become one larger family (even if only for a generation). It's not simply a gift, it's a long-term commitment. The family is in theory the most trustworthy unit, then clans (which basically build out from that unit), after that it's a case of rapidly diminishing returns. Being a kinslayer is an immense taboo, bot simply because you murdered a member of your own family, but because you can't even be trusted amongst those closest to you.

The importance of this and its ramifications are everywhere in the books: the maester's and Night's Watch (supposed) neutrality is primarily established by their vows and commitment not to have families, the same applies to the Kingsguard and to a lesser extent regular knights, the Iron Bank with it's formidable reputation, the Golden Company never breaking contract compared with the unreliability of the other mercenary companies, the prices the Faceless Men can command because they can be completely relied upon to succeed in their missions, the respect commanded by the Starks, the stereotyping and stigma against the Dornish in part due to indirect revenge and use of poison, the stigma of bastardy, etc.

That honour is so valued in the culture isn't because people are nice, it's the opposite, it's that trusting people is very difficult and dangerous.

Amen.

[OldGimletEye]

49 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

I'm go to make an obvious point, but as the writers have made it clear again and again that they don't understand it I felt the need to write it.

Honour isn't just some sort of abstract moral code. The appearance of honour is incredibly important when making a deal or forming a partnership, the parties involved have to have some sense that they can trust the others. In the modern world we have powerful states that enforce well-established and reliable legal systems, where (in theory if not in practice) justice is applied equally and impartially to all parties. Even with such a system, which provides recourse for things such as breaking contracts – we still find face-to-face negotiations when conducting business to be extremely important, we still need to get a sense of who we are dealing with.

Under a feudal system there were laws, but fairness and enforcement were very far from modern standards. Moreover, seeking the aid of the next tier up to resolve issues was both difficult and risky. Avoiding having to look to recourse or involving third parties at all, was extremely important so being able to trust who you were dealing with was essential. For life and death matters exponentially more so.

 

I agree with what you are saying here. Very much so.

And I get the feeling that D & D think things like honor and fair dealing are for suckers. I think they believe that they are just showing themselves to be very sophisticated here. But, they may not have thought these sort of things through as well as they believe.

I'd suggest those concepts may in fact be important mechanisms to coordinate human activity, which helps to raise over all human welfare.

I am going to use a simple example here. And it's not necessarily meant to be an airtight display of logic but more of an illustrative example. Take a simple prisoner's dilemma game. The solution is for both players to fuck each other over. That is the "rational" decision for each player to make. However, it's not optimal. The optimal solution, the one that raises the overall utility of both players, is to cooperate.

The concept or the institution of honor may in fact get people to cooperate or to coordinate their activities where otherwise they might not. In other words, "honor" might change the outcome of prisoner dilemma type games, which otherwise result in coordination failures and can hurt overall human well being.

[ArabellaVidal]

34 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

Was this already posted?

http://watchersonthewall.com/titles-game-thrones-episodes-606-607-revealed/#more-64480

(Is Bran going to learn the powers of nature? Maybe how he can do some earthquakes? Please?)

And title for episode 6: Blood of my Blood (Something Dothraki)

for episode 7: The Broken Man 

Hizdahr zo Sansa 2.0

[CrastorsLivingSon]

8 minutes ago, ArabellaVidal said:

for episode 7: The Broken Man 

He will be broken by Bri.  HULK SMASH.  Don't read anymore into the title.  That is all there is.  50 minutes.  

[Tijgy]

10 minutes ago, ArabellaVidal said:

Hizdahr zo Sansa 2.0

What do you mean by a second Hizzy (I loved Hizdahr zo Sansa  I want him back! )

[ArabellaVidal]

Just now, Tijgy said:

What do you mean by a second Hizzy (I loved Hizdahr zo Sansa  I want him back! )

Hmmm. There is a Red Priest in Meereen. Maybe he'll raise him lacklustrely back from the dead for Tyrion to marry?

[Tijgy]

Just now, ArabellaVidal said:

Hmmm. There is a Red Priest in Meereen. Maybe he'll raise him lacklustrely back from the dead for Tyrion to marry?

It would nice to see him return. Poor Hizzy, his second arranged marriage (oh, like Sansa...). 

And it would also be nice to see someone constantly out talking Tyrion (because Tyrion has to resort to insults )

 

 

 

[ArabellaVidal]

I must say that Hizdahr of the Show was waaayyy more likable than his book counterpart. Which is why they had to kill him because obviously there could only be ONE lovable character in Meereen at a time.

[Tijgy]

3 minutes ago, ArabellaVidal said:

I must say that Hizdahr of the Show was waaayyy more likable than his book counterpart. Which is why they had to kill him because obviously there could only be ONE lovable character in Meereen at a time.

I must say I dont like BookHizdahr much but the show version ... he was likable (except for the fact he is a slaver) but he prefers diplomacy, ... 

PoorQuentyn on the Northern Lords (show vs. books)

http://poorquentyn.tumblr.com/post/144153202088/hi-pq-thoughts-on-the

Quote

Neither Arnolf Karstark nor Whoresbane Umber are given much attention in the books, but they shine through as distinctive characters nonetheless, especially when they’re contrasted with each other, which I think GRRM intends for us to do given that he sat them next to each other in Theon I ADWD. 

Arnolf’s a sly-tongued backstabber eager to sell out his own family. It’s no coincidence that he and his rotten sons are allied with Ramsay, as like him, they represent the worst of the Northern homefront, the murderous ambitions that led to the Hornwood dispute (which as Attewell laid out, left the North vulnerable to the Ironborn invasion). I’d argue that Arnolf is worse than Rickard, and it does the heart good to see Stannis take him down (“you are dead men, understand that”) in Theon I TWOW with Jon and Alys’ help. 

Whoresbane is one of my very favorite minor characters: a gay hyper-intelligent possibly-wizard of whom everyone seems both terrified and oddly fond. If the other Umbers embrace and embody the big-bluff-brawler archetype of the family, Whoresbane’s there to remind us of their magical roots and their “cunning.” The best summary of Whoresbane’s character is that Roose of all people can’t even describewhat makes him so intimidating in Theon III ADWD; the Lord of the Dreadfort simply trails off. 

In the show? We get a young Karstark and Umber whose blase reactions to Ramsay killing Roose make it very difficult to get invested in the political context and take these characters seriously. I’m also really irritated by the show’s habit of using pedophilia as a way to signal that a character’s evil when we already know they’re evil (coughMerynTrantcough). Moreover, where ADWD subtly communicates that Whoresbane is still a Stark loyalist at heart, the show has Not Whoresbane outright refuse to bend the knee to Ramsay, which is just so heavy-handed and obvious. So “The North Remembers” will not pack anywhere near the same punch in the show as it did in ADWD, because we’re lacking those interesting, well-defined characters whose interactions with their context make sense. (That’s without even getting into Wyman and Barbrey…)

I really miss all those Northern Lords . 

[ArabellaVidal]

I just realized that 'Brienne goes on a mission' probably explains those promo pics of her in a green place. So she is being sent to retrieve Arya and we will have that horrible boring plotline from the horrible boring 4th book which so many show-fans were glad was being cut because it was boring.

Psych!

This also explains how we will meet the Elder Brother and see the Gravedigger/very obviously the Hound. It will also conveniently position the Hound for when Arya returns and Brienne will finally remember Jaime and be caught back in that storyline so conveniently taken from that horrible boring 4th book which we were ALL SO HAPPY TO NOT WATCH!

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

Was this already posted?

http://watchersonthewall.com/titles-game-thrones-episodes-606-607-revealed/#more-64480

(Is Bran going to learn the powers of nature? Maybe how he can do some earthquakes? Please?)

And title for episode 6: Blood of my Blood (Something Dothraki)

for episode 7: The Broken Man 

So, episode 6 Drogon sweeps in to save Dany. And ep 7 we get the Hound and Tits and Dragons Septon Meribrother?

[OldGimletEye]

9 minutes ago, ArabellaVidal said:

I must say that Hizdahr of the Show was waaayyy more likable than his book counterpart. Which is why they had to kill him because obviously there could only be ONE lovable character in Meereen at a time.

It's kind of like Highlander. There can be only one: And it's St. Tyrion The Awesome.

[TepidHands]

14 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I agree with what you are saying here. Very much so.

And I get the feeling that D & D think things like honor and fair dealing are for suckers. I think they believe that they are just showing themselves to be very sophisticated here. But, they may not have thought these sort of things through as well as they believe.

I'd suggest those concepts may in fact be important mechanisms to coordinate human activity, which helps to raise over all human welfare.

I am gonna use a simple example here. And it's not necessarily meant to be an airtight display of logic but more of an illustrative example. Take a simple prisoner's dilemma game. The solution is for both players to fuck each other over. That is the "rational" decision for each player to make. However, it's not optimal. The optimal solution, the one that raises the overall utility of both players, is to cooperate.

The concept or the institution of honor may in fact get people to cooperate or to coordinate their activities where otherwise they might not. In other words, "honor" might change the outcome of prisoner dilemma type games, which otherwise result in coordination failures and can hurt overall human well being.

Interesting stuff here and in @Sir Loin Steak's quoted post. I was thinking concepts like honor are rooted in the basic social contract. (without which, Hobbes said, life is  "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short," a principle that is evidenced by the need for moderators on internet forums ). A subject gives his trust to a leader, and the leader extends his protection to the subject. That's one of the reasons I've hated the whole Northern storyline this season. It's not like the Boltons are known for being particularly trustworthy; in the show, they openly betrayed and orchestrated the murder of their liege; in the books, they've been in a state of simmering rebellion for a couple thousand years. And with Roose gone, why would anyone want to be subject to his murderous, traitorous bastard son? But they're apparently lining up, these father-hating sons of Karhold and Last Hearth, and giving Ramsay "gifts."

I can't explain the mindset of D&D on this. It's akin to their treatment of religion, race, gender ... supeficial, seemingly "progressive" but insultingly trite. .  

 

[Tianzi]

15 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

It would nice to see him return. Poor Hizzy, his second arranged marriage (oh, like Sansa...).

And he was forced to marry not a person RELATED to the killers of his family, but the actual killer. And unlike show Tyrion, she was the one ordering it, not the fellow victim. And Dany didn't seem to plan to treat him with respect. Oh, and threatened his life.

But alas, the dramatical aspect is not explored here, because Daenerys has nicer ass than Tyrion, so Hizdahr is considered luckier than Sansa (well, except for the death part).
 

[Tijgy]

The Storyline in Meereen: Tyrion strikes a deal, Tyrion seeks a strange ally, Tyrion ... whatever. ZZZzzz 

Arya is given a change to prove herself: probably that theatre group and Mercy v. 2392821

Jorah and Daario undertake a difficult mission => Dany Damsell in Distress is being saved? 

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, episode 6 Drogon sweeps in to save Dany. And ep 7 we get the Hound and Tits and Dragons Septon Meribrother?

So Jorah and Daario fail ... and die? 

And I dont completely care what Larol is going to do. When are they going to kill each other? 

[Tijgy]

1 minute ago, Tianzi said:

But alas, the dramatical aspect is not explored here, because Daenerys has nicer ass than Tyrion, so Hizdahr is considered luckier than Sansa (well, except for the death part).

I actually think we are not meant to feel sorry for him? And we had to think it was so badass when Dany threatened him? They really sent here a bad message (not the first time )

Still Hizzy Zo Sansa, I do care about you!

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I still think since her list is down to 3 people that Walder Frey must come to Essos, I don't see there is time for her to get to the riverlands and kill him and she has to kill someone at the last final iteration of Mercy....

If Jaime can get from Dorne to KL in a matter of hours, then Arya can get to Walder Frey in the Riverlands in as little time as well.