[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Reprecussions - Season 6, Tally-Ho

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, Anythingatall said:

Indeed, I understand the function of the WotN.  I

was just pointing out that in the show it has basically lost all meaning.  Ramsey (or Roose) for that matter has shown no inclination to retain that title.  They may as well make up their own  "Super duper shiney awesome lord of the Northy Worthy" for how little it now means.  

Neither Roose nor Ramsay have ever shown any inclination to remain in the position because that's how it was written. The show runners have always known, much as we do, that Ramsay is a goner, it's only a matter of when not if. And that's in part why nothing connected to the Super Ramsay Sue Show ever makes any fucking sense. 

[BlueNightzx]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Not that the show cares, but when they established that Robert was going to appoint Tywin as Warden instead of 'Robin' seems to make it "show cannon" that it's the king's decision.  Since LF told Cersei the Boltons had betrayed her and the Lannisters...it would stand to reason that the Boltons are no longer Wardens of jack.  LOL.

I can't see how the Boltons would still be supported by the crown since she told LF she would make him warden of the north and sanctioned his invasion...

 

Who cares?jon snow is alive. arthur dayne has two swords, how cool is that? what? not happy yet? maybe we need to feed another newborn baby to the dogs or another rape

yes rape
rape is always the answer 

[BlueNightzx]

and apparently the riverlands doesn't exist anymore

[TheCasualObserver]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Not that the show cares, but when they established that Robert was going to appoint Tywin as Warden instead of 'Robin' seems to make it "show cannon" that it's the king's decision.  Since LF told Cersei the Boltons had betrayed her and the Lannisters...it would stand to reason that the Boltons are no longer Wardens of jack.  LOL.

I can't see how the Boltons would still be supported by the crown since she told LF she would make him warden of the north and sanctioned his invasion...

 

She sanctioned it in a room in the red keep during a private meeting. If she had made it public, wouldn't that ruin LF's surprise attack? I'm not asking to be confrontational - I genuinely have no idea what happened during that part of the show. 

[WolfQueenArya]

The only thing I have to complain about is that there is still no warging for Arya or Jon! Why? Why? Why?!? 

I am still holding onto hope that Arya and Nymeria will reunite and they will still give them a strong connection at least. And did Jon forget about Ghost when he walked off? Poor Ghost...

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

She sanctioned it in a room in the red keep during a private meeting. If she had made it public, wouldn't that ruin LF's surprise attack? I'm not asking to be confrontational - I genuinely have no idea what happened during that part of the show. 

But the Boltons openly betrayed the Lannisters by marrying a wanted criminal, a woman wanted for regicide...so how or why would they think they still have any perks that are controlled by the IT?  They know that Ramsay married Sansa, they said they did it solidify their hold on the North, thus it makes sense that people in the North would be told of it, they know Sansa is wanted by the IT for murdering Joff.  They even have said they expect the Lannisters to invade...so invoking a title that is controlled by the Lannisters....does not make sense.

The whole thing is blindingly stupid from start to finish.

[David Selig]

5 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

She sanctioned it in a room in the red keep during a private meeting. If she had made it public, wouldn't that ruin LF's surprise attack? I'm not asking to be confrontational - I genuinely have no idea what happened during that part of the show. 

Don't worry, the showrunners have no idea either.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

Who cares?jon snow is alive. arthur dayne has two swords, how cool is that? what? not happy yet? maybe we need to feed another newborn baby to the dogs or another rape

yes rape
rape is always the answer 

Exactly that. Unbelievable that they get away with this level of idiotic storytelling, and people love it without putting any thought into how ridiculously stupid the whole thing is. 

Well, Ramsay will have Osha as his plaything for some episodes, "yay" (NOT) so much to look forward to.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Fan-fiction confirmed!

Deconstruct characters and House we don't like.  Check.  See Tower of Joy.  How the fuck does a guy with two swords beat four people when two of them have shields?  And Umber betrayal of the Stark's, Jon ending his Watch after acting as LC to get revenge.  Killing a Direwolf off screen.

Waste screentime and prop-up characters Houses we like.  Check. Tyrion's comedy Hour (it certainly felt like an hour), the Venomless Spider, Kindly Grandpa Qyburn, Righteously Larry and Carol asserting their author-i-tah (because you know, they don't need Kevan, who garnered far more loyalty with the Lannister vassal Houses than they did at this point in the books). And Ramsey gets psycho-idiot friend-lackeys in the form of other Northern Lords, complete with the same Daddy issues he has!

Straight up fan-fiction with a clear authorial bias.

[OldGimletEye]

3 minutes ago, A_Cornered_Wolf said:

Jon ending his Watch after acting as LC to get revenge. 

Yeah, this bugged the fuck out of me too.
So Jon executes these men under the authority of being the LC, but then after hanging them resigns as LC? Huh? Come again?
Am I supposed to feel good about that? Am I supposed  to believe that Jon was acting "bad ass" here.

[Lethavien]

Could they even have made a slower episode if they tried? That Tower of Joy scene just seemed to happen all of a sudden in the episode and then it was over. I am not even sure if the episode i watched cut out something that built up to it or not. It just was there and then it was gone, just as Dawn was before Dayne turned into a jedi master with two lightsabers.  

And what even was that Tyrion scene for? Does Peter's contract really say he has to be in an episode for "x" amount of time? For in any case they really do not have any idea of what to do with him until some face for the harpy threat comes a long to be lectured by Tyrion the Blessed. 

I see Varys is now about to enter the marysue league with Tyrion as well... GIVING CANDY? that was how he kept the biggest spy network in KL because he gave some candy to a bunch of peasant kids. Is there any shades of grey left in Tyrion's story? no, they are all shining brighter than the stars and the evil slavers are evil and bad and evil. At least there is no Ramsey figure down there to waste everyone's time. 

Rest was boring and pointless, Wall story can maybe be seen as a dim highlight, but only the acting part as any logic behind the characters was lost the minute this season began. I also have to wonder why the Stark's ruled the North for so long, doesn't seem to be a very loved family now with all of the major houses apparently hating their guts. Or was Robb really the worst thing to happen to the North? Hmm, no, the Starks are defiantly the worst thing since kinslaying and the Bolton's or rather Ramsey is their beloved warrior King who will bring about the golden age of the North. Long live the Bolton King, Azor Ahai Reborn... yikes this bad.  

[Liver and Onions]

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, this bugged the fuck out of me too.
So Jon executes these men under the authority of being the LC, but then after hanging them resigns as LC? Huh? Come again?
Am I supposed to feel good about that? Am I supposed  to believe that Jon was acting "bad ass" here.

Didn't Jon execute Janos Slynt last season? (I seem to recall him asking the very important Olly for his sword...) Perhaps Jon will just keep executing bigger and bigger groups of people until he runs out. Gotta up that ante somehow...

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

Didn't Jon execute Janos Slynt last season? (I seem to recall him asking the very important Olly for his sword...) Perhaps Jon will just keep executing bigger and bigger groups of people until he runs out. Gotta up that ante somehow...

I think my issue isn't the executions so much as it's Jon claiming on one hand the authority to judge and carry out the executions and then immediately claiming, thereafter, that he wasn't part of the NW anymore.

If Jon asserts that he wasn't part of the NW, upon his death, but then claims the authority to carry out an execution as LC, something here does not compute. It's like Jon went to the Bruty of Tarth school of justice or something.

[BlueNightzx]

7 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think my issue isn't the executions so much as it's Jon claiming on one hand the authority to judge and carry out the executions and then immediately claiming, thereafter, that he wasn't part of the NW anymore.

If Jon asserts that he wasn't part of the NW, upon his death, but then claims the authority to carry out an execution as LC, something here does not compute. It's like Jon went to the Bruty of Tarth school of justice or something.

the fandom wanted olly dead, simple as that

there's no shades of grey, there was never a hint that what jon was doing with the nights watch could be seen as indeed evil and misguided by the majority of the watch, and they acted truly believing that what they are doing was the right thing

in they show they put as ser alliser thorne as jealous of jon and olly was a betrayer, evil and petty and deserve do die

[The Winged Wolf Bran Stark]

If anyone wants to read fandom following's recap of the episode: http://www.fandomfollowing.com/for-the-notwatch-game-of-thrones-6x03-recap/

Also, ever since I heard the full details of the Winterhell scene with Ramsay and Rickon, I fear what they will do. Like, actually terrified. Because Rickon is there and there was the joke about Not!Karstark being a pedo and, well, I just sat here thinking "please tell me they aren't going to go that route, that would cross WAY too many lines. But the show hasn't been shy about crossing lines before for the sake of shock and edginess."

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

12 minutes ago, The Winged Wolf Bran Stark said:

If anyone wants to read fandom following's recap of the episode: http://www.fandomfollowing.com/for-the-notwatch-game-of-thrones-6x03-recap/

Also, ever since I heard the full details of the Winterhell scene with Ramsay and Rickon, I fear what they will do. Like, actually terrified. Because Rickon is there and there was the joke about Not!Karstark being a pedo and, well, I just sat here thinking "please tell me they aren't going to go that route, that would cross WAY too many lines. But the show hasn't been shy about crossing lines before for the sake of shock and edginess."

Thinking about that just ruined my night. But I was mostly annoyed with the whole Smalljon Umber betrayal. Mostly since he was beheaded at the Red Wedding by Bolton men and died fiercely loyal to his King, trying to protect him even. So to have him betray the Starks to the Boltons by handing over Rickon, and beheading Shaggydog, rubs me the wrong way. It spits in the face of book Smalljons death. I find it disrespectful, but I'm prone to overreact.

[rosehustle1]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Regarding changes: Of course, if D&D had done a far better effort to actually adapt the heart and soul of the story, and would overthink the consequences of conflating events better, or spreading them across differnt characters and foresee issues ahead of them appearing, then there would indeed less plotholes and inconsistencies and inane solutions to make it work. Conflation and giving stuff out to do to other characters (invented or conflated or otherwise) can work and often needs to be done. But when it's done for the wrong reasons and without much forethought the series will run into issues... and they're all KNOTS

BRIENNE-KNOT

Brienne encounters Hound and Arya, and throws him off a cliff after bashing his head in and unable to find Arya. Sounds like a cool idea. Why was it done? Because for some reason they moved the confrontation that caused the Hound to "die" was already featured in epi 1 of S4. Why? No idea why they chose to have that battle with Polliver at the start. Maybe they did move it to the start to have the Brienne-Hound fight. I don't know. I don't care. All by itself for S4 that's not really an issue.

And yet it does: Because in this season they have Brienne pledge her services to Sansa and Sansa accepting them, and Sansa has a personal connection to Sandor. Even if Brienne doesn't know about that, she does know that Sandor is wildly regarded as a very dangerous warrior, most siblings would not be happy about if they learn their kid sister is left to travel with him. .

1. either Brienne just stays completely mum about having met Arya to her sister, but that would put her in a bad light, because she's withholding crucial information that Arya may actually be alive
2. or Brienne tells the truth. And here the issue is that Sansa will react badly on learning the Hound was killed by this woman who she just accepted in her service, and worse that her kid sister is wandering around the RL all by herself without any other protection and that this woman abandoned her kid sister.
3. or Brienne lies and makes up some other story without disclosing the identity of the man, and omits telling Sansa that she injured him in such a way that he must have died within a few hours. And Sansa doesn't inquire into it too deeply.
4. not have Brienne save and escort Sansa

It's clear that with the situation they put Sansa in (no escort to the Wall by Stannis, because he's dead and so is his army that did not desert) that (4) isn't an option, unless they have Ramsay not even trying to hunt her (which then would be uncharacteristic for Ramsay), or suddenly Ramsay's hounds can't sniff trails anymore. They chose to do (3), because they wanted to avoid criticism on (1), but they also did not want Sansa to send Brienne away (just yet) as would logically happen after (2). But (3) also is a choice that either makes Brienne look like a liar to her boss, or just dumb, and reflects badly on Sansa as well.

They got themselves into a knot they can't unravel without making it obvous they're trying to hand-wave the issues away that they've created.

The reply would be: yes, but they wanted to improve on Brienne's RL storyline, not make it as pointless as it was in the books. Ok, so, they had her fight Sandor. Nevertheless they made it pointless anyhow, since Arya didn't go with Brienne, because she had to go to Braavos. And now Brienne isn't even telling Sansa what actually happened. Since Brienne hadn't even left KL yet at the start of S4 and thus could not meet with Sandor and Arya, they had to delay and drag Sandor-Arya trip and make THAT pretty much a pointless trip; moved the encounter and fight at the inn forward in the season, and then gave Sandor and Arya more stuff to do - killing Rorge and Biter, which was actually BRIENNE's JOB. So, they didn't streamline anything, but instead delayed and dragged stuff on with two characters so that another character could have her fight which was pointless anyway. Maybe they should just have had Brienne killed by the bear in HH to avoid this whole mess, or had her kidnapped somehwere in the RL, and find or invent another fighter character to save Sansa from being dragged back to WF by Ramsay's hunters. It's not as if they're keeping Brienne around for a romantic plot, are they?

 

THE NORTHERN KNOT

It's not the only Northern-knot. Basically they want a Battle of Winterfell where Littlefinger ends up being the Hero of the North who saves Jon Snow and Sansa from being beaten by a Bolton. Of course in order for a Bolton to beat Jon Snow & Sansa they can't do a complete repeat of the majority of the army abandonging Jon Snow and lose all their horses. The 20 good men is already used. And after resurrecting Jon Snow they can't make him out to be as completely a loser as Stannis. So, they require that Bolton to have a very large impressive army and thus allies. But which Bolton woudl they use for it? Roose or Ramsay or both.

Roose has the seeming advantage of the Frey alliance. Freys have a large army, and since Walda Frey's unborn child/just born child could become possible Warden of the North in a far away future, they would gladly help him out. But it's widely known that Roose killed Robb and many Northern heirs, siblings, fathers, etc died at the RW. Aside from Karstark nobody in the North will choose Roose over Sansa and Jon Snow, unless Roose and Freys have hostages. Here's the problem for Roose - they cut the Twins having hostages. Except for the Blackfish, everybody was killed, and the Blackfish ain't family from Northerners, except for the Starks. Other problem - they're doing the Freys get axed at a wedding in Riverlands this season. So the Freys can't be sending armies North (to keep things simple).

So, Roose must be gotten rid of => have Ramsay kill Roose and Walda Frey. Opens op the possibilities to have Houses, other than Karstark, ally with a Bolton. They can invent some houses, but you know they have to spare people too many new family names or otherwise they're gonna ask why they didn't fight for Robb before and viewers are confused enough. So, use a House that's already known. There aren't that many to choose from, sicne they didn't feature that many houses to begin with. Best known are Umbers. And having the Umbers side with Ramsay takes care of another big issue for Sansa and Littlefinger getting on top of it all - Rickon. As male trueborn child he comes before Sansa. So they have the Umbers side with Ramsay and surrender Rickon so they can get rid of him. Ramsay's a super-villain who likes to kill.

But now they msut have to come up with a reason for the Umbers, the most loyal house to House Stark, to side with Ramsay. Ah, the wildlings being let into the Gift by Jon Snow, a bastard of House Stark. Even if they don't like the Boltons all that much, they need to stand together against the wildlings. Problem solved?

No. The Umbers have Jon Snow's half brother. They can send a threat to Jon Snow about Rickon to make sure he keeps the wildlngs in the Gift. Rickon's also the trump card over Sansa. He's still so young, that installing him, can make the Umber regent. They have the key of the North in hands both to get whatever they want from Jon, from Sansa and from the Boltons. Heck, they housed a wildling woman for several years in their home, and that includes Lord Smalljon sheltering her after his father was killed. Smalljon states he gives Rickon to Ramsay as a gift, his own enormous trump card to have control over all of the North, so that together they can keep the wildlings from the Umber lands and Smalljon can be 3rd fiddle. But where is Smalljon going to fight those wildlings? At Winterfell. So the wildlings have crossed his lands anyway. 

Meanwhile you have an almost copy and do-over of the first Battle of Winterfell, including a Stark in Ramsay's hands to do with as he pleases. That's certainly not streaminng anything anymoe. It's repeitituous. And why is that? Because they wanted Stannis dead, and they did not want to have an unknown minor character being a fake Sansa or Arya raped by Ramsay.

So, choice after choice they made to make it "adaptable" on screen basically ends with plot-knots that they can't get out of without becoming repetituous, without dragging on the plot over and over, without ending up with 2 villain Sues, massacring all the world building they did in earlier seasons (North Remembers, Stark Loyalty, kinslaying being the worst sin), and ending up with half-ass solutions you can predict from a mile away that dumb down a character, no matter how evil or villainous or traitorous they are.

Thank you for this! I get so tired of fans saying they are streamlining things when they are actually making things more convoluted and repetitive than if they just got rid of some story lines or actually adapted things correctly.

[Cas Stark]

Was it really supposed to be some kind of a "reveal" or surprise or news to anyone that the slavers in Astapor and Yunkai and Volantis were funding the anti-Dany forces in Meereen?  Like Varys has to alternatively threaten and bribe somebody to get that info?  

Talks about Captain Obvious. 

[rosehustle1]

11 minutes ago, The Broke Howard Hughes said:

Thinking about that just ruined my night. But I was mostly annoyed with the whole Smalljon Umber betrayal. Mostly since he was beheaded at the Red Wedding by Bolton men and died fiercely loyal to his King, trying to protect him even. So to have him betray the Starks to the Boltons by handing over Rickon, and beheading Shaggydog, rubs me the wrong way. It spits in the face of book Smalljons death. I find it disrespectful, but I'm prone to overreact.

You're not overreacting. This was a deliberate slap in the face to book readers, and I would even say to George. They did the Hodor=Willas thing last episode, then they have an Umber betraying the Starks, they have Tyrion being better able to handle dragons than Dany, they have Brienne acting complete OOC in order to fulfill their dumb quotas, Jon just leaves the NW without any conflict or emotion, and somehow Ramsay a vile piece of shit character that is never meant to be given this much screen time is the protagonist of the WF story line. Everything follows him, his desires, his neuroses, and he keeps getting rewarded. This show is really just a vanity project now for  D and D and they do not give a shit about the books or George's legacy.

[rosehustle1]

4 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

They are so bad. Starting with that beetle THUNK -ing scene.  Ever since then it's like completely useless scenes, as far as I can tell the most important thing is simply what room Tyrion happens to be in at the time. like the throne room or a jail cell or a small council chamber, etc.....

The Orson story will forever annoy me. That was like a solid five minutes that Tyrion could have been talking about Tysha and Jamie could have looked somewhat guilty and conflicted. Then at the end of the episode he could have told Tyrion the truth. And then we get a real Tyrion struggling with himself arc instead of the bullshit we got. Really season 5 should have been the best season of the series. We should have had Lady Stoneheart, Jamie getting away from Cersei and going to the RL, Sansa in the Vale,Jon securing Alys Karstark's marriage, his secret plan with Mance and the spearwives, Stannis going to The Flints and Norreys to gain troops and capturing Yara, Dany dealing with The Pale Mare, the harpy, and then reclaiming her identity by choosing to go with Drogon, Theon's real WF arc that included a fucking Heart Tree, and a real Jeyne Poole character, actual Northern Lords who give a fuck about Ned's little girl...They have ten hours to fill and they spent much of season 5 showing Tyrion drinking, Ramsay playing up his evilness, Olly reaction shots, pointless nonsense in Dorne, and unmotivated nonsensical actions by many KL characters.