[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Reprecussions - Season 6, Tally-Ho

[White Harbors Wrath]

...and as cornball as that old lady was, I got a chill when she delivered "the north remembers". Can you imagine how pants-shit-worthy it would have been with someone really hammering it in?

[Neds Secret]

10 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

So, I just rewatched "You win or you die" Ep. 7 season 1.

The show was fucking brilliant then.  It's unbelievable what a freakshow it's turned into.

It has turned into some sort of muppet show. All the characters have the same name as the characters in the AsoiaF books but they just bumble around on stage doing random shit with no plot ir story line to follow anymore. Along with random sexposition titties, and dragons D$D make their muppets do things that shock us, unfortunately when every scene is shocking it has lost even the ability to do this. I now view the show as like A Saturday night live skit show where the AsoiaF characters come on in character and do other skits and play other roles for laughs and shocks but still as their character, Jaime and Bronns excellent adventure is an example of this, thanks D$D!

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

Oh, I don't think he lets us enjoy Joffrey's death either really - despite Joffrey's undoubted awfulness as a person, Martin makes it uncomfortable to watch a young kid slowly choke to death, just as he makes Cersei's and Theon's "punishments" so drastically unjust, and not really related to the very real crimes they've committed.

I agree, as much as I despised Joffrey, I felt extremely uncomfortable reading his death scene. 

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

It has turned into some sort of muppet show. All the characters have the same name as the characters in the AsoiaF books but they just bumble around on stage doing random shit with no plot ir story line to follow anymore. Along with random sexposition titties, and dragons D$D make their muppets do things that shock us, unfortunately when every scene is shocking it has lost even the ability to do this. I now view the show as like A Saturday night live skit show where the AsoiaF characters come on in character and do other skits and play other roles for laughs and shocks but still as their character, Jaime and Bronns excellent adventure is an example of this, thanks D$D!

 

And that is exactly why they turned it up to 11 in s 4, up to 13 in s 5, and I'm fully expecting it to be turned up to 17 in the upcoming series, 

[Neds Secret]

7 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

You would think that since she is a "VIP" that Roose would be paying close attention to her "happiness" but then again, his words to littlefinger were basically we need her name not her virtue so she was there to breed and that is what Ramsay was attempting to do. Whether or not he was successful remains to be seen but if she is pregnant or not, she and the potential baby are not in their possession. Also and more importantly and this is flying under the radar, Roose and Ramsay know Bran and Rickon are alive as it was Theon/Reek that told them, prompting them to send Locke (he took Ser Jaime's hand off) to the Night's Watch to seek them out. So, with Theon gone and him potentially telling Sansa about her brothers (which he did) then the news will spread like Wildfire, that Bran and Rickon Stark are alive and they are the biggest threat to the Boltons, not Sansa.

Yes that all makes sense but do you seriously believe the show will make sense of it all, I doubt it, unfortunately.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, LadySoftheart said:

Manderly and Lady Stoneheart, though perhaps it was clear even to people who'd skimmed the Cliff Notes version of the books that those two took vengeance a step too far?

Agreed with your overall comment, but I'm giving my take on how George deals with revenge... it's like resurrections... it comes with a sacrifice (a self-sacrifice). The FM cult is based on this principle - you want that person to pay with his life for what he did to you? Well it comes with a sacrice.

Meanwhile, George also incorporates the classical crimes against divine rules that traditionally make the gods demand blood vengeance to be committed by the surviving relatives - oathbreaking, kinslaying, regicide and betrayal of the master/mistress/lord/lady you sworn failty too, breaking of guest right, disrespecting the dead. Kin who refuse to avenge these crimes are at -remiss in the eyes of the gods and are consequentionally cursed because of it.  And George does not deviate much of this at all. He does not explicitly spell it out... but if you check out those who committed divine crimes they eventually meet with death and loss, as well as those who fail to avene such crimes in the name of the gods. Important is that the vengeance must be done without committing those divine crimes yourself and be willing to pay the ultimate price for it. And it is very important not to confuse this with a blood feud or crimes against humanity.

Ellaria was completely correct when she cautioned her daughters against avenging the death of their father Oberyn. He paid the sacrifice in order to avenge the murder of his sister, nephew and niece. Those three had not committed crimes against the gods and were of the royal family that house Lannister, Amory and Clegane had sworn failty to. More, Aerys never committed a divine crime against either of these 3 families (Aerys committed divine crimes, but not against these houses). Oberyn did his duty to the gods - he avenged the betrayal against his kin in a divine trial... Gregor did die. On top of that Tywin died and so did Ser Amory. The gods would be appeased by this, and Oberyn's daughters would have committed their own crimes against the gods if they sought to kill Myrcella, Tommen, etc.

Manderly for example would be required by the gods to avenge the divine crimes committed against his kin: the murder of his son at the RW where the Freys broke guest right, the murder of his cousin Lady Hornwood by Ramsay. Since Ramsay wed her, Ramsay committed kinslaying when he murdered his wife. If Manderly would not avenge this he would be cursed in the eyes of the gods for failing his duty to them. Meanwhile Manderly is absolutely willing to pay the ultimate price for it - his own life, and he makes sure he does not committ divine crimes himself - Freys are murdered after given the parting gift, and he brings his own food to Barrowton and WF. He would therefore not be committing crimes against guest right either at Barrowton or WF. He also seems to make sure not to swear fealty to the Freys nor the Boltons. He might still die (and he probably will), but his family cannot be cursed by the gods for it.

Catelyn wished to let go of vengeance. When she did this she failed her duty to the gods. She also betrayed her king by setting Jaime free. Robb too committed a divine crime when he married another he had promised to do. In that sense, Robb was required to punish hismother and the Freys were required to ask for some form of restitution. Cat's betrayal to her king and Robb's betrayal to his promise weren't necessarily crimes of the level that required death to appease the gods... But it's what the Freys did. However, they committed more heinous and severe crimes by breaking guest right, regicide and the murder of their king's mother. On top of that, they desecrated both the bodies of Robb and Catelyn. And with the latter the Freys helped LS to exist. Had they at least properly buried her according to ritual - put her on a boat and light it afire there wouldn't even have been a body left to be resurrected. LS already prepaid her duty to vengeance with a huge sacrifice - her children, the death of her son, husband and herself. LS is just doing her duty.

That said, no George does not make even dutiful divine vengeance easy. It's not supposed to be something that you should feel comfortable about. But he has those who are at remiss in seeking justice or vengeance for divine crimes perish or lose a great deal by fate: Robert for not punishing the oathbreaker and kingslayer Jaime, nor Gregor and Ser Amory for the murder of the royal children is an example of that.

In that sense, Brienne's vengeance of Stannis in the show is much more problematic. Stannis did not commit regicide, but he was a kinslayer. Brienne is not his queen, nor is she kin to either Renly or Stannis as far as we know (in the books she might be kin if Dunk is related to the Baratheons in some way... I doubt it though. Dany is distant kin though). Anyhow, the only way that Brienne could avenge the murder of Renly in a divine sense is by openly accusing Stannis of kinslaying and forcing him to a trial by combat. But that's not what Brienne did. She claimed the wrong divine crime and she brutally slaughtered Stannis. And now on top of that she'll save Sansa and be a hero for it? George would never ever write such a thing.

[Tianzi]

I get a feeling that D&D considered Renly DA TRUE KING.

I really want to see the gods trying to punish the Queen of Throns tho.
 

[CBeck113]

I have the feeling that Arya's storyline will be to deliver the message, possibly to Jon, that revenge isn't the goal he should be following.  But against whom?  The WW? Lannisters? Freys? D&D fpor the crappy character building? (Hoping for that one...two minutes too late :-D)  I just don't know of the characters can be "saved" from D&D at this point, not even the main characters - they've become too one dimensional it's sad.  Sigh, gonna buy the Kindle editions of teh books tonight and start binge reading, I should have at least the first two books done before the show commences...to remind myself how badly they've really done.

[Tijgy]

49 minutes ago, White Harbors Wrath said:

...and as cornball as that old lady was, I got a chill when she delivered "the north remembers". Can you imagine how pants-shit-worthy it would have been with someone really hammering it in?

I do not mind really much that the old lady said "The North remembers". My problem is that she is the only one except for Ramsay who says this and she is flayed that much later by Ramsay. 

The biggest problem is still that Ramsay (Bolton) who says this first. While the impart of this saying was enormous, it is actually sparsely said in the books. Robb was the first one who ever mentioned. In the stories it is only said by the people who or whose families were a victim of the Red Wedding or the Boltons (Manderley, Theon, Lady D (when she refers to the dead Dustins at the RW)) And now you are putting those words in Ramsay! One more of the examples of them giving the words/a role from the victims to the perpetrators .

( and  are really my standard emoticons of this thread) 

[Metopheles]

1 hour ago, Neds Secret said:

It has turned into some sort of muppet show. All the characters have the same name as the characters in the AsoiaF books but they just bumble around on stage doing random shit with no plot ir story line to follow anymore. Along with random sexposition titties, and dragons D$D make their muppets do things that shock us, unfortunately when every scene is shocking it has lost even the ability to do this. I now view the show as like A Saturday night live skit show where the AsoiaF characters come on in character and do other skits and play other roles for laughs and shocks but still as their character, Jaime and Bronns excellent adventure is an example of this, thanks D$D!

 I watched the show before I read the books when s1-3 were out, after that I read  all the books and am now a purist; I was clawing my pillow when they killed Viserys and afraid when the sword went through Tyrion in Blackwater. That was it. No more shock after those moments. Dany taking Yunkai was pretty awe inspiring, but really those were the shock moments for me, an Unsullied.

Now, after reading, the only shock is when I am baffled and thinking " Oh they can't do this. Jesus Christ is that happening?" In reference to the poor adaptation and variation of the story and characters.

 

And the sexposition thing, I think the Littlefinger scene where he talks about Brandon and teaches Ros, was actually really good. It is a weird scene but I like it, before reading and after reading. And Ros was the best (only good) addition to the story from DD

[Cas Stark]

After watching a couple of season 1 eps, I'm awestruck by how wrong the show has gone.  I happened to watch the 'play w/her ass' episode and while that line is still awful, the whole scene was not nearly as gratuitous as I remembered.  And this was prior to Aiden Gillen's Batfinger accent, when his LF still spoke like a normal person, before he added the crazy rasp.

I always contrast the showrunners of BB with GOT in my mind for some reason, and I think of the things Vince Giligan has said about how they created the show, sitting around debating if X character would do Y....as if they cared about the characters keeping a true arc.  It's unimaginable that Dan and Dave have ever had one single such conversation.

After reading their list of accomplishments for season 6 which was how BIG OMG HUGE their production is, I realized they're going for another 'best of' list, to be the biggest TV show in history, since we already know they don't even bother to get the most out of many of their locations, they're all about spectacle, that's it.

So sad.

[LazyBazooka]

58 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I get a feeling that D&D considered Renly DA TRUE KING.

 

Quote

D.B. Weiss:

“Renly has a more enlightened view and a more practical view of what it means to rule, and its often pointed out to him that he doesn’t have the right to the throne because he’s the younger brother. He points out something that should be obvious to anybody watching the show or invested in the story is that nobody really had the right to the throne, Robert didn’t have the right to the throne, the Targaryens didn’t have the right to the throne, and power ultimately resides in the hands of the people who seize it. He’s saying "people love me, I have a 100,000 men behind me, which dwarfs the size of your army, I would make a better ruler", which is unquestionably true, Stannis would make a terrible king, because he lacks a feeling for the common humanity over which he’s supposed to rule."

 

[Wayward Sand Star]

1 hour ago, Neds Secret said:

It has turned into some sort of muppet show. All the characters have the same name as the characters in the AsoiaF books but they just bumble around on stage doing random shit with no plot ir story line to follow anymore. Along with random sexposition titties, and dragons D$D make their muppets do things that shock us, unfortunately when every scene is shocking it has lost even the ability to do this. I now view the show as like A Saturday night live skit show where the AsoiaF characters come on in character and do other skits and play other roles for laughs and shocks but still as their character, Jaime and Bronns excellent adventure is an example of this, thanks D$D!

Cripes! Where's the 'like' button?

[Jam On Toast]

12 hours ago, Metopheles said:

Daario or Jorah would have been logical. Daario has no relevance in the show in any direction, Barristan did, a lot actually. Jorah's plot is ended anyway, book and show, GW likely needs to stay because they couldn't be bothered to introduce a new generic general of sorts to command some army. If there is a new dothraki khal or even a fanfic ressurected Drogo, all males around Daenerys are dead men walking anyway, so GW will very likely die along with Jorah if there is a new alpha male.

Maybe Daario has a big part to play. We don't know from the books yet. I think there is more to Daario, and I believe (in the show at least) he will be part of the harpies. Just re-watched season 5 and there are several moments that I missed first time around and add up to suggest this.

[Wayward Sand Star]

Seriously, though, I, for one, had read the books by the time the show was aired, and, for the large part, lost interest by the beginning of Season 2.

After feeling royally pissed off with D&D and the whole "Jon's DEAD" fiasco at the end of the last Season, reading AKotSK somehow got my intellectual juices going again, and I have since warmed to the idea of Season 6 (much like one warms to Hodor). Now I find the whole idea of a books-show relationship fascinating to think about, and I've even gotten into cross-medium theorising here (some of you might have even read my crapathising in other threads).

And then, in the last trailer, we get a line of Tyrion's which goes: "I drink; I know things. That's what I do."

...

...

Go f--ck yourselves, D&D. :smolders:

[CBeck113]

11 minutes ago, Wayward Sand Star said:

Seriously, though, I, for one, had read the books by the time the show was aired, and, for the large part, lost interest by the beginning of Season 2.

After feeling royally pissed off with D&D and the whole "Jon's DEAD" fiasco at the end of the last Season, reading AKotSK somehow got my intellectual juices going again, and I have since warmed to the idea of Season 6 (much like one warms to Hodor). Now I find the whole idea of a books-show relationship fascinating to think about, and I've even gotten into cross-medium theorising here (some of you might have even read my crapathising in other threads).

And then, in the last trailer, we get a line of Tyrion's which goes: "I drink; I know things. That's what I do."

...

...

Go f--ck yourselves, D&D. :smolders:

I actually didn't take that line too badly - try this: "I drink, I know things: That's what I do."  If Book Tyrion had actually said this, then he would have been sooooo drunk that it would have been difficult to understand.

[kissdbyfire]

For what it's worth - granted, not much at this point - I am convinced Davos will, at some point, go to Bear Island. The sigil on the wall is very clearly a bear. Of course, BI will be 'right there', very close to the Wall, and probably not even an island at all. 

Heh, maybe it is an island right in the middle of the show's Long Lake. 

[Tijgy]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

For what it's worth - granted, not much at this point - I am convinced Davos will, at some point, go to Bear Island. The sigil on the wall is very clearly a bear. Of course, BI will be 'right there', very close to the Wall, and probably not even an island at all. 

Heh, maybe it is an island right in the middle of the show's Long Lake. 

The problem is that it should be green not yellow?

(Why am I here actually talking about colors. The Stark Banner is even not the same as the books. Still the Mormont one is green or rather a wood!! Because black bears live in woods not on beaches or whatever. So either they are not on bear island or they either there (and then I can complain hours about the fact the background is not a forest.)

I do admit it looks like a bear so you are probably right. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Tijgy said:

The problem is that it should be green not yellow?

(Why am I here actually talking about colors. The Stark Banner is even not the same as the books. Still the Mormont one is green or rather a wood!! Because black bears live in woods not on beaches or whatever. So either they are not on bear island or they either there (and then I can complain hours about the fact the background is not a forest.)

I do admit it looks like a bear so you are probably right. 

 

I think many of the sigils don't look like they're supposed to look... But that is clearly a bear, so who else could it mean other than the Mormonts?

[SeanF]

59 minutes ago, LazyBazooka said:

 

 

Which is rather odd, because Renly doesn't come over as being Kingly material at all, in the Show.

He's horrified by the sight of blood;  he can't bring himself to have sex with his wife;  he's a selfish, petulant, twenty first century metrosexual, trying to rule a medieval kingdom.  And then, Margaery told Joffrey that Renly wanted to bugger her, which is probably not calculated to win audience sympathy.