NBA 2016 Playoffs Edition: Farewell, Kobe!

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

58 minutes ago, briantw said:

I think Blake is better than Love on paper, but Love's ability to stretch the floor and hit three pointers with consistency makes him more valuable to an offense build around spacing, which most offenses are these days.  

That's a fair evaluation. My one objection is that people vastly underestimate Blake's midrange game. It's not the same as having a 3 ball, but he is not as one dimensional  as people claim he is.

1 hour ago, briantw said:

You're not getting someone as good as Blake Griffin with the 8th or 18th picks in the NBA draft unless you are incredibly, incredibly lucky.  You package those two together in a fucking heartbeat to get a star player.  Hell, you throw in another first as well if you have to.

Agreed. And I used Boston as an example because they're one of the few teams that could give seemingly equal value back for Blake without gutting their roster. I think the projected 3rd pick, the 16th pick and a big man on their roster would be as close to equal value as the Clippers could hope for. 

[Jaime L]

3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I tried to help you all I can, but I can't do nothing Foye ya, man.

 

Still waiting on that gift basket you Warriors fans owe us Wizards, Grizzlies and T'Wolves (especially T'Wolves) fans for our franchises' collective incompetence in passing on Steph Curry. Sure the Warriors organization did a ton of things right to have among the greatest 2 year runs ever but you couldn't have done it without us. 

[briantw]

42 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

That's a fair evaluation. My one objection is that people vastly underestimate Blake's midrange game. It's not the same as having a 3 ball, but he is not as one dimensional  as people claim he is.

I don't think he's one-dimensional, but I also think it's a lot easier to slide into the paint off a mid-range guy to help someone else than it is to do the same from the three point line.  And if Blake is outside the three point line, you can play off of him and dare him to shoot.  You can do that with Love, too, but Love can make you pay for it.  Griffin can't.

That said, I think Griffin is a great player, and definitely in the top ten to twenty guys in the NBA talent-wise.  I also think he's an immature idiot, but that's a given at this point.  If I'm a team that's a star away from relevance, I trade for him in a heartbeat.  He's still young enough to make a team good for a long while (unlike, say, Chris Paul, who probably only has a couple of elite years left in the tank at best), so he's exactly the kind of guy you target if he's available and you want to compete now.  It's very similar to the Cavs going after Love, to be honest, assuming of course that Blake is made available this summer.  The Cavs were ready to go all-in and Love was the best star player on the market.

I also think that, generally speaking, you take a star now over a guy who might be a star later.  I mean, it's one thing if the prospect in question is LeBron James, who was, if you recall, one of the better NBA prospects of all time.  It's another if the prospect is a guy like Wiggins, who was a good prospect but only ended up the first pick because the guy everyone actually wanted (Embiid) got medically flagged.  A top ten player now is worth more to a team on the verge of competing than a guy who might get there in five to ten years.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

9 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Still waiting on that gift basket you Warriors fans owe us Wizards, Grizzlies and T'Wolves (especially T'Wolves) fans for our franchises' collective incompetence in passing on Steph Curry. Sure the Warriors organization did a ton of things right to have among the greatest 2 year runs ever but you couldn't have done it without us. 

 

[DunderMifflin]

Wow now that I think about it I do remember that short period of time when the consensus was that John Wall was unobjectively better than Curry

[Jaime L]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

He has to be the worst GM of all time, right? Taking 3 PGs in the same draft is patently insane to begin with but then to have none of them be Steph Curry is a feat that I don't think will ever be topped. 

Oh, that's another thing you Warriors fans owe us. In the 2011 draft, the T'Wolves and Wizards both whiffed again on Derrick Williams and Jan Vesely respectively while y'all got Klay Thompson. 

You're welcome for the Splash Brothers. Our gift to you.

I'm just glad all the GMs involved have been fired.

Wait, what?

1 minute ago, DunderMifflin said:

Wow now that I think about it I do remember that short period of time when the consensus was that John Wall was unobjectively better than Curry

I'm not sure if John Wall was ever a better pro. I mean Steph Curry was really good even as a rookie. But John Wall had the pedigree based on freakish athleticism and superstar potential. I'm trying to think back but I'm guessing Curry was viewed as a very polished, relatively low upside pure shooter type those first couple years. The Warriors would have been laughed out of the room if they offered that trade the first few years and now the reverse is true the last couple years. 

[DunderMifflin]

I was thinking more of their pre pro careers too.

There are both from my state and we all started hearing about Wall when he was like 15 or 16. He was a prodigy.

We heard about Curry the same time everybody else did. In college, Davidson is about the size of a high school. 

It's really been nice seeing Curry constantly overcoming incredible lack of respect.

 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Jaime L said:

Still waiting on that gift basket you Warriors fans owe us Wizards, Grizzlies and T'Wolves (especially T'Wolves) fans for our franchises' collective incompetence in passing on Steph Curry. Sure the Warriors organization did a ton of things right to have among the greatest 2 year runs ever but you couldn't have done it without us. 

There ya go.

[briantw]

4 hours ago, Jaime L said:

He has to be the worst GM of all time, right? Taking 3 PGs in the same draft is patently insane to begin with but then to have none of them be Steph Curry is a feat that I don't think will ever be topped. 

Oh, that's another thing you Warriors fans owe us. In the 2011 draft, the T'Wolves and Wizards both whiffed again on Derrick Williams and Jan Vesely respectively while y'all got Klay Thompson. 

You're welcome for the Splash Brothers. Our gift to you.

I'm just glad all the GMs involved have been fired.

Wait, what?

I'm not sure if John Wall was ever a better pro. I mean Steph Curry was really good even as a rookie. But John Wall had the pedigree based on freakish athleticism and superstar potential. I'm trying to think back but I'm guessing Curry was viewed as a very polished, relatively low upside pure shooter type those first couple years. The Warriors would have been laughed out of the room if they offered that trade the first few years and now the reverse is true the last couple years. 

This Curry revisionist history needs to stop.  He was not even the top point guard prospect in his draft, and no one thought he'd become as good as he has.  John Wall was a much, much better pro prospect than Curry was.  Yeah, it looks bad in retrospect, but so do a lot of draft picks who didn't pan out.  No one was ever going to take Curry first in 2009, or even top five.  He just wasn't projected to be that type of player.  Sometimes guys outpace their projections.  Curry is one of those guys.  He wasn't a surefire star coming into the league in 2009, and no one thought he'd be a future MVP.

Kahn was an awful GM, though.  No questioning that.  About the only good thing he ever did was flip the rights to OJ Mayo for Kevin Love on draft night.  Of course, he never gave Love any good teammates, but still that trade was unquestionably a win for the Wolves.

I do think it's safe to say that, had Curry been drafted by the Wolves, he probably wouldn't be the player he is today.  

[Jaime L]

3 minutes ago, briantw said:

This Curry revisionist history needs to stop.  He was not even the top point guard prospect in his draft, and no one thought he'd become as good as he has.  John Wall was a much, much better pro prospect than Curry was.  Yeah, it looks bad in retrospect, but so do a lot of draft picks who didn't pan out.  No one was ever going to take Curry first in 2009, or even top five.  He just wasn't projected to be that type of player.  Sometimes guys outpace their projections.  Curry is one of those guys.  He wasn't a surefire star coming into the league in 2009, and no one thought he'd be a future MVP.

Kahn was an awful GM, though.  No questioning that.  About the only good thing he ever did was flip the rights to OJ Mayo for Kevin Love on draft night.  Of course, he never gave Love any good teammates, but still that trade was unquestionably a win for the Wolves.

I'm not entirely sure you read my post.

Specifically the part about how the Warriors would have been "laughed out of the room" had they tried to offer Curry for Wall those first few years. 

[DunderMifflin]

I've never seen anything close to Curry as far as outpacing projections.

I can't think of a single player that was unanimously whiffed on by everyone in the entire world like that. (Not counting way old stuff or post high school growth spurts) And then goes on to be an MVP and World Champion.

I mean kid grew up in nc with a famous dad, right under the noses of UNC and Duke.

The notion of "ok sooner or later this guy will expose himself as a fluke" is understandable when you are dealing with something new like that

[DunderMifflin]

Speaking of NC, Hornets get a huge win in Miami tonight to go up 3-2 putting them in firm control of the series.

And don't call it an upset Hornets are the better team.

Looking like the crying Jordan memes might have to wait for another round.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Just curious whether any posters think the NBA should move the 3pt line out a few more feet or leave it be? I think i'd favor seeing it moved back a few more feet in the near future.

[Kindly Old Man]

15 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Just curious whether any posters think the NBA should move the 3pt line out a few more feet or leave it be? I think i'd favor seeing it moved back a few more feet in the near future.

This would make Curry into a unstoppable killing machine

[DireWolfSpirit]

1 hour ago, Kindly Old Man said:

This would make Curry into a unstoppable killing machine

There would undoubtedely be gainers and losers with that change. But I would like to see it moved out so that its less accessible to mediocre shooters. If the Korvers, Curry's and Clay Thompsons of the league retain an advantage (because they still have the range to hit a deeper three), I could live with that if the overall effect were to cut down on 6-11 players camping out on the arc 20 minutes a game. I 'd like to see those bigs driving towards the hoop, cutting without the ball and competing in the paint, rather than standing around in the half court. 

We'd still have our great shooting guards on the perimeter but we'd see more athletic and physical inside play from the front courts. Less guys not moving without the ball, more pick and rolls, more dribble penetration. At least according to my theory. Curious to hear from others whether they agree or they think its an awful idea?

[Jaime L]

5 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

There would undoubtedely be gainers and losers with that change. But I would like to see it moved out so that its less accessible to mediocre shooters. If the Korvers, Curry's and Clay Thompsons of the league retain an advantage (because they still have the range to hit a deeper three), I could live with that if the overall effect were to cut down on 6-11 players camping out on the arc 20 minutes a game. I 'd like to see those bigs driving towards the hoop, cutting without the ball and competing in the paint, rather than standing around in the half court. 

We'd still have our great shooting guards on the perimeter but we'd see more athletic and physical inside play from the front courts. Less guys not moving without the ball, more pick and rolls, more dribble penetration. At least according to my theory. Curious to hear from others whether they agree or they think its an awful idea?

Yeah, I like it to a degree for that very reason - it separates the real 3 point shooters from all these stretch 4's that are camped out at the 3 point line because it's too enticing from a point proposition. It's crazy that the Blake Griffins and Anthony Davis' are being explicitly encouraged to become 3 point shooters and that their value is in some way "limited" to the extent they don't become proficient at it. Hell, Kevin Love, one of the great rebounders in the game has spent large swaths of the season camped out in the corner as a corner 3 guy. The value of the 3 pointer is starting to crowd out the value of other aspects of the game. But if you extend the line out a few feet, the math changes, and all these guys who are just good enough shooting corner 3's no longer add value that way. But as it stands your traditional big man is getting more and more devalued each year which runs contrary to all of NBA history previously. Not sure I like that. 

On the other hand, for the most part, I really enjoy how the current game is played. The game's way more aesthetically pleasing than a decade ago. I also dislike disrupting the historical comparability of eras. Some of the stats from those couple years they moved in the 3 point line in the 90s are just laughable in retrospect. You move the line back out and Steph's record from this season stands for all time...but not necessarily for the right reasons. 

So I don't know which way I lean. I will say I think the "cheat code" that is the corner 3 is getting to be an issue. If these trends continue to accelerate, I say get rid of it entirely. 

[Maithanet]

16 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

So I don't know which way I lean. I will say I think the "cheat code" that is the corner 3 is getting to be an issue. If these trends continue to accelerate, I say get rid of it entirely. 

I don't see the value in moving the 3 point line back a foot or two if the corner 3 is still available.  It would just make offense even more reliant on always parking a good shooter in each corner and then daring the defense to play 3v3 with the entire rest of the court.  Although I'll admit eliminating the corner 3 would be a really big change. 

[Jaime L]

6 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I don't see the value in moving the 3 point line back a foot or two if the corner 3 is still available.  It would just make offense even more reliant on always parking a good shooter in each corner and then daring the defense to play 3v3 with the entire rest of the court.  Although I'll admit eliminating the corner 3 would be a really big change. 

Yeah I think ultimately I agree. My concern would also be that getting rid of undoes some of the beautiful spacing of today's game. Kinda Pandora's Box. 

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Yeah I think ultimately I agree. My concern would also be that getting rid of undoes some of the beautiful spacing of today's game. Kinda Pandora's Box. 

Yeah.  Maybe the corner 3 should be worth 2.5 points?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Just widen the court by 4 feet and move the line back a foot.