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jons squire

Why are Davos etc protecting Jons body?

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Apologies if I missed it but why are Davos, Edd and loyal NW guarding Jons body and what does Thorne want to do with it?

We all expect Jon to be revived (somehow), but does Davos etc?
I've only had one watch thru so I may have missed some of the dialogue but how do they know this is even possible?

Shouldn't they be accepting Jons fate (he looks dead to them, surely (in their opinion) he dead) and plotting revenge (their next move?).

How do they think this is gonna pan out?

Thanks.

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Its presented in such a way that we're supposed to believe that they're not actually there protecting Jon's body,  but rather,  they're afraid that if they come out,  Thorne will have them killed as well.   Likewise,  its also presented in such a way that Thorne only wants them to surrender,  not that it has anything to do with Jon's corpse. 

Of course,  that's just a convenient way for the producers to have them protect Jon's corpse without actually seeming to be protecting Jon's corpse.

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7 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

Its presented in such a way that we're supposed to believe that they're not actually there protecting Jon's body,  but rather,  they're afraid that if they come out,  Thorne will have them killed as well.   Likewise,  its also presented in such a way that Thorne only wants them to surrender,  not that it has anything to do with Jon's corpse. 

Of course,  that's just a convenient way for the producers to have them protect Jon's corpse without actually seeming to be protecting Jon's corpse.

Pretty much this.

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22 minutes ago, bb1180 said:

Its presented in such a way that we're supposed to believe that they're not actually there protecting Jon's body,  but rather,  they're afraid that if they come out,  Thorne will have them killed as well.   Likewise,  its also presented in such a way that Thorne only wants them to surrender,  not that it has anything to do with Jon's corpse. 

Of course,  that's just a convenient way for the producers to have them protect Jon's corpse without actually seeming to be protecting Jon's corpse.

:agree:

I've saw people moan about Davos all of a sudden having a fierce loyalty to Jon, even going so far as to die for his corpse. However, I never read the scene like that. It was only Edd that was lamenting about vengeance, the others just seemed to be caught up in the shit storm, with no way out ("If you wanted to see the morning, you choose the wrong room"). They are basically in a coup out, it is either side with the mutineers and accept Thorne's rule or remain loyal to their true Lord Commander. 

Davos is a good guy, he won't abandon the men who are still loyal to Jon. Turning his back and leaving CB is more out of character for him than staying to help bring justice to Jon, especially given that he failed with Stannis and Shireen. 

I think Thorne left Jon's body out in the Snow, under the 'Traitor' sign as a message to the Jon loyalists, he was leeching them out. They freed the Wolf also which shows their loyalty to Jon still stands. 

It is pretty clear,  that with the men holding crossbows outside the door, Thorne has no intention of letting the men (and wolf) in the room live. He just wants them to come out and die, as Davos stated and tested by asking for Mutton (which surprised Thorne because he has no intention of giving Davos food). Jon was the shepherd but the sheep still need to be killed, so they don't side with the Wildlings. 

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6 minutes ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

:agree:

I've saw people moan about Davos all of a sudden having a fierce loyalty to Jon, even going so far as to die for his corpse. However, I never read the scene like that. It was only Edd that was lamenting about vengeance, the others just seemed to be caught up in the shit storm, with no way out ("If you wanted to see the morning, you choose the wrong room"). They are basically in a coup out, it is either side with the mutineers and accept Thorne's rule or remain loyal to their true Lord Commander. 

Davos is a good guy, he won't abandon the men who are still loyal to Jon. Turning his back and leaving CB is more out of character for him than staying to help bring justice to Jon, especially given that he failed with Stannis and Shireen. 

I think Thorne left Jon's body out in the Snow, under the 'Traitor' sign as a message to the Jon loyalists, he was leeching them out. They freed the Wolf also which shows their loyalty to Jon still stands. 

It is pretty clear,  that with the men holding crossbows outside the door, Thorne has no intention of letting the men (and wolf) in the room live. He just wants them to come out and die, as Davos stated and tested by asking for Mutton (which surprised Thorne because he has no intention of giving Davos food). Jon was the shepherd but the sheep still need to be killed, so they don't side with the Wildlings. 

At first I thought Davos was being sarcastic and funny but yeah he was more or less testing him. It's do or die. Now it's up to Edd to bring Wildlings and then al hell breaks the loose. Question what will Mel do? Part of me wish she in all that mess resurrects him or kiss of life. Jon just standing there and everybody looking at him. But I think we might see something on that even later on in episode 3 and if TOJ is truly in episode three, nice way to tie this into his resurrection.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Friendzone said:

At first I thought Davos was being sarcastic and funny but yeah he was more or less testing him. It's do or die. Now it's up to Edd to bring Wildlings and then al hell breaks the loose. Question what will Mel do? Part of me wish she in all that mess resurrects him or kiss of life. Jon just standing there and everybody looking at him. But I think we might see something on that even later on in episode 3 and if TOJ is truly in episode three, nice way to tie this into his resurrection.

Well, I don't think they'd show her doubting her faith and then suddenly turn around and have her resurrect Jon. While it would make for an awesome reveal, it just doesn't fit with what the show is trying to do with Mel at this point. IDK if the ToJ is going to be in episode 3(maybe I missed something about that) that would make a nice tie-in. Of course, some people have suggested that Bran may play a part in his resurrection, who knows.

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Thanks, thought I'd maybe missed something and that the Jon Loyallists believed that it somehow wasn't over. (Jon's life.)
I too think the wildlings will turn up with Edd, ready for a square go.
Then Jon arises from his slumber just in time to stop the NW being wiped out.
Cue, Jon, mark II uniting the bro's, kicking Thornes arse and getting set for the Battle of the Bastards.
Should be good!

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The practical thing for them to do would be to burn Jon's body for fear of him turning into a wight.

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2 hours ago, Ludo Kressh said:

Well, I don't think they'd show her doubting her faith and then suddenly turn around and have her resurrect Jon. While it would make for an awesome reveal, it just doesn't fit with what the show is trying to do with Mel at this point. IDK if the ToJ is going to be in episode 3(maybe I missed something about that) that would make a nice tie-in. Of course, some people have suggested that Bran may play a part in his resurrection, who knows.

I meant it like something will trigger her and then in the mess she'll do something. Thoros and his faith was at the lowest point when he did that. She can' do it just like on her own, she needs guidance. Actor who plays one of he Kingsguard at TOJ tweeted that we have to wait for his scene in episode 3. Unless they split fighting and indoor scene, it's going to be revealed in that episode.

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2 hours ago, Ludo Kressh said:

Well, I don't think they'd show her doubting her faith and then suddenly turn around and have her resurrect Jon. While it would make for an awesome reveal, it just doesn't fit with what the show is trying to do with Mel at this point. IDK if the ToJ is going to be in episode 3(maybe I missed something about that) that would make a nice tie-in. Of course, some people have suggested that Bran may play a part in his resurrection, who knows.

One of the actors cast for the ToJ scene, and spotted filming there, said that he would be in episode 3. The actor will likely be playing Arthur Dayne. He had to go through allot of training for his role.  

tweet: https://twitter.com/luke_j_roberts/status/724298663988715521

The released synopsis for Episode 3 also says, "Bran will meet the past." 

He will have his vision of Ned as a boy in Winterfell in episode 2. That links in with the episode title as he will be 'Home.' HBO also released this picture of Bran and Bloodraven in episode 2, which looks like he is in Winterfell, seeing his Father. http://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/episodes/6/52-home/index.html

So, it looks like we are getting the ToJ in episode 3. I think Jon will also be resurrected in episode 3 as it will coincide with his identity reveal. It will also be 3 episodes after he was killed, which matches the biblical story of Christ. They already had him die under a cross, after all. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

At first I thought Davos was being sarcastic and funny but yeah he was more or less testing him. It's do or die. Now it's up to Edd to bring Wildlings and then al hell breaks the loose. Question what will Mel do? Part of me wish she in all that mess resurrects him or kiss of life. Jon just standing there and everybody looking at him. But I think we might see something on that even later on in episode 3 and if TOJ is truly in episode three, nice way to tie this into his resurrection.

Mel's scene from the trailer ("It was all a lie...the victory in the flames...") still needs to happen. I assume this will be episode 2 or 3. I am hoping she does something cool to distract/ fight the Mutineers. However, I don't think she has it in her at the moment. I wanted to see Jon come back to life and have a 'surprise bitch' moment when everyone is fighting as well. However, I am betting on an episode 3 resurrection, along with the R+L=J reveal. 

I wonder if any of the other NW brothers will side with Edd and the Wildlings? The synopsis says, "The Night's Watch stands behind Alliser Thorne" but some of the men were still glaring at him after his speech in the hall. Hopefully, Jon will have more than 4-5 loyal men when he returns. 

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I always wonder why people wonder about the most obvious things.

Edd slipping out: It was shown that the yard was empty and everyone in the "canteen".

Where are the Wildlings: Jon didn't let them in and said to them "And now my children go and reave the 7 kingdoms." He settled them close vy.

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32 minutes ago, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

I wonder how Edd managed to slip out, take a horse, and leave Castle Black without any of Thorne's men noticing.  And how does he know where the Wildlings are?

In the books many of the Wildlings settled in Moles Town. I am sure that's where they are in the books. Some of them also went to the abandoned fortresses. Since Thorne hadn't consolidated his power just yet, I am not sure why anyone could be counted on to keep Edd there. 

As for Melisandre, the sleeping scene might be a set up to a dream where Bloodraven gets some key information to her and to Jon. Since the she seems to be checking everyones pulse in the first episode, I think they will probably do the same in the second with the exception of the Sand Snakes/Dorne people.

The previews tell us a lot. We already know there is going to be some sort of showdown with Cersei - 6 min. A showdown between Jamie and the High Sparrow - 6 min. A Sansa/Brienne scene - 8 min. Arya stickfighting - 4 min. Bran dreaming - 10 min. Bolton Banter - 5 min. Tyrion/dragon - 5 min,  That leaves about 10 minutes max for wall activities, and we've only seen the preview of someone trying to break down the door, which means it's morning, which means Mel would have presumably awoken. So I am guessing 4-6 minutes that is going to have to do with something important imparted to her through a dream or some other sort of epiphany. The rest of the time will be devoted to the goings on in the room with Jon.  

We're not going to see major action on Jon until Ep 3. But we know it has to be set up in Episode 2. Episode 3 probably opens with the Wildlings showing up at Castle Black and ruining the door busting party. Mel cruises over and demonstrates the kiss of life. 

 

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The sequence from finding the corpse to barricading into the room seemed to me quite rushed and lacking logic. If you find Lord Commander dead, the first thing you do is normally raising an alarm, a loud alarm, and calling everybody there. Why, instead, are you taking away the body and going to hide it in a room? And, in a few seconds, you count the people and you deduce those are the only loyal brothers? But why? What logic behind that? There could be many other loyal watchmen who simply didn't come among the first to Jon's body. Maybe they went to the meeting. Why not? Maybe is Ghost's howl supposed to be some kind of a magical summoning just to the right fellows? All the initial sequences were definitely unconvicing to me.

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32 minutes ago, grey_scale said:

The sequence from finding the corpse to barricading into the room seemed to me quite rushed and lacking logic. If you find Lord Commander dead, the first thing you do is normally raising an alarm, a loud alarm, and calling everybody there. Why, instead, are you taking away the body and going to hide it in a room? And, in a few seconds, you count the people and you deduce those are the only loyal brothers? But why? What logic behind that? There could be many other loyal watchmen who simply didn't come among the first to Jon's body. Maybe they went to the meeting. Why not? Maybe is Ghost's howl supposed to be some kind of a magical summoning just to the right fellows? All the initial sequences were definitely unconvicing to me.

Yes the first thing you do is raise the alarm, except Davos saw Thorne's little arts and crafts project, the Traitor sign, so he knew it was an inside job. And by extension the guys who showed up next were likely not involved in the assassination. As for innocent watchmen who were at the meeting, what was Davos going to do, barge in there as Thorne was giving his speech and ask who wasn't involved? 

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How could they be killed in front of everybody? It was clearly a murdering, made in an ambush by a few, not an open rebellion by a vast majority (why to hide and disappear otherwise?). Likely, if they would raise an alarm, an open struggle between two parties could arise, and they would have the adventage of charging Thorne and the others of treason. Barricading with a few fellows in a locked room and leaving Thorne the complete undisputed control of the Watch is actually the most risky decision they could take, I would say a suicidal choice (of course not assuming you are confident the dead corpse is about to come back alive and kicking as a godlike hero in a few days). Definitely it was a weird, unnatural, illogical reaction.

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5 minutes ago, grey_scale said:

How could they be killed in front of everybody? It was clearly a murdering, made in an ambush by a few, not an open rebellion by a vast majority (why to hide and disappear otherwise?). Likely, if they would raise an alarm, an open struggle between two parties could arise, and they would have the adventage of charging Thorne and the others of treason. Barricading with a few fellows in a locked room and leaving Thorne the complete undisputed control of the Watch is actually the most risky decision they could take, I would say a suicidal choice (assuming you are confident the dead corpse is about to come back alive and kicking as a godlike hero in a few days). Definitely it was a weird, unnatural, illogical reaction.

They have no idea who was involved with the plot, only that there had to be a number of them to carry it out and raise the traitor cross. Davos was there long enough to know that the wildling project wasn't received with universal acclaim. Raising the alarm could have them out numbered in the open and that's a risk he quite reasonably doesn't want to take.

It wasn't as though they weren't able to come up with a better solution: get the wildlings, and carry it out.

And raising the alarm would do what? The mutineers could stand around tut-tutting and saying this is dreadful, meanwhile noting who's with Davos and get them later asleep in their beds. Charging them with treason with no idea of actually who to charge?

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35 minutes ago, grey_scale said:

The sequence from finding the corpse to barricading into the room seemed to me quite rushed and lacking logic. If you find Lord Commander dead, the first thing you do is normally raising an alarm, a loud alarm, and calling everybody there. Why, instead, are you taking away the body and going to hide it in a room? And, in a few seconds, you count the people and you deduce those are the only loyal brothers? But why? What logic behind that? There could be many other loyal watchmen who simply didn't come among the first to Jon's body. Maybe they went to the meeting. Why not? Maybe is Ghost's howl supposed to be some kind of a magical summoning just to the right fellows? All the initial sequences were definitely unconvicing to me.

I think the easiest thing to do is stop expecting logic. :P

@bb1180 nailed it. Plot convenience.

Honestly, I agree with everything you said. It wasn't so long ago that Jon was elected LC over Thorne, but these 4-5 Brothers are it for Team Jon. I guess there were a few boos when Thorne said he killed Jon but compare that reaction to when Mormont gets killed. Speaking of Craster's, what happened to all of the Brothers who answered Jon's plea for volunteers to join him in taking out the mutiners or the ones who followed him to Hardhome? 

Seems like most of the loyal pro-Jon Brothers have fallen into a plot hole along with Ser Davos' memories of Stannis and Shireen, Dany's notoriety among the Dothraki and Ramsay's dogs that were tracking Theon and Sansa.

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3 hours ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

Mel's scene from the trailer ("It was all a lie...the victory in the flames...") still needs to happen. I assume this will be episode 2 or 3. I am hoping she does something cool to distract/ fight the Mutineers. However, I don't think she has it in her at the moment. I wanted to see Jon come back to life and have a 'surprise bitch' moment when everyone is fighting as well. However, I am betting on an episode 3 resurrection, along with the R+L=J reveal. 

I wonder if any of the other NW brothers will side with Edd and the Wildlings? The synopsis says, "The Night's Watch stands behind Alliser Thorne" but some of the men were still glaring at him after his speech in the hall. Hopefully, Jon will have more than 4-5 loyal men when he returns. 

It looks like Jon resurrection will happen only after Tower of Joy scene - which is "Bran sees the past" - episode 3.

Davos will push Mel to do Something to get them out of this mess, she will either refuse/having crisis of conscience or try and fail, and then she will confess everything to Davos (her hand in Shireen and Stannis' deaths) and have that "it was all a lie" speech.

Next I always thought it would be Bran who actually succeeds in bring Jon back (after all there was a speech in trailer where he says "Past is past" etc) but now, after that ending, I think Davos will shame Mel into giving her all and she will sacrifice either her life or her power.

 

 

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