Promise Me Ned (Spoilers)

[dbunting]

15 hours ago, The Answer said:

If you look up "a solemn promise to your dieing sister" in the dictionary.. Oath will be the first word you come across.   

After you take a shower tonight in Ned's fictional fantasy sweat - mentally prepare yourself for the realization that he may not have been honorable in all respects.

 

Yeah, an oath is a promise, but never once was it referred to or thought of by Ned as an oath, always as a promise. And what makes you so sure you are right? Did you have dinner with GRRM Sunday and did he tell you that you are right and others are wrong? No of course not.

And as to the shower reference, which to me signals you have some slips in there about your own fanatasies, Ned was known across the Kingdoms for his honor, it's not something that I or any fan made up, even north of the wall he is respected. Is he perfect, hell no, after all he did lie to someone about Jon, why he did this is still the unknown factor.

 

[VenezuelanLord]

Ned made a promise.. He didn't took an oath, we have seen people taking oaths.. Brienne,sansa, jon so i dont think the promise ned made to lyanna counts as ones, does it carry weight? Hell yea it does, she was his only sister, the promise obviously its more important than his honor and the honor of his wife and house, we saw him resign to his honor once more when he confessed treason to protect the girls.. So i dont think he is the oathbreaker, at least not because lyanna and jon.. I agree about how much we will see about the ToJ events, like some other user posted, I think they will cut right when ned enters the tower... The oathbreaker in my opinion is Jon.. He will break an oath, a lot of people like to say that his death works like a loophole, yea perhaps.. But he will not see it like it.. He will be haunted for leaving the watch, he is after all his father's son.. His honor is above all.. But he will give it up to save the realm, and so he will fulfill a part of his oath.. 

[Neffaria]

I don't think the concept of "oath" needs to be literal, nor do I think that it will be one singular arc. I think all of the plotlines will have some tinge of oathbreaking/lying/deceiving or the like. Whether it is viewed as Aliser Thorne's treason against his high commander, or Jon leaving the watch, or possibly a broken promise from Ned, Arya not really letting go of arya to be a proper No-One, Sansa going on the warpath (or at least plotting or thinking it) against her husband thus breaking their marriage vows.Danearys not wanting to remain with the Dosh Khaleen, breaking the custom of all widows staying there forever, I think that a lot of the arcs will have some way of connecting them to some sort of broken oath, or broken promise, lie or betrayal.

Kind of like home, where Bran is given visions of home, Theon states that he would like to go home, Euron returns home, Ramsay is fighting to keep his new home, and on the wall, Jon return to this world, which is also a kind of homecoming I suppose. there are tonnes of connections that could be made to the concept of Oathbreaker. Alternatively, Yes it could be argued that only one arc that the title refers to, (like the red woman), but my money is on it being a general theme rather than a direct reference to one. BUT if I had to pick one oathbreaker, I have to admit I like the idea of it being Ned.

[The Answer]

1 hour ago, VenezuelanLord said:

Ned made a promise.. He didn't took an oath, we have seen people taking oaths.. Brienne,sansa, jon so i dont think the promise ned made to lyanna counts as ones, does it carry weight? Hell yea it does, she was his only sister, the promise obviously its more important than his honor and the honor of his wife and house, we saw him resign to his honor once more when he confessed treason to protect the girls.. So i dont think he is the oathbreaker, at least not because lyanna and jon.. I agree about how much we will see about the ToJ events, like some other user posted, I think they will cut right when ned enters the tower... The oathbreaker in my opinion is Jon.. He will break an oath, a lot of people like to say that his death works like a loophole, yea perhaps.. But he will not see it like it.. He will be haunted for leaving the watch, he is after all his father's son.. His honor is above all.. But he will give it up to save the realm, and so he will fulfill a part of his oath.. 

Can't argue with the gist of this, especially Jon's upcoming NW departure.. 

I used this opportunity (seeing ToJ in preview) to remind folks that sure, we are fairly certain of most that took place at the ToJ, and of Jon's parentage... but we're not certain that Ned fulfilled his promise to Lyanna.  Is he the Oathbreaker? Maybe not in this episode... but he could very well be the Promise-breaker (for you horribly anal folks) in a later episode when the promise is revealed.  

[The Answer]

15 minutes ago, Neffaria said:

I don't think the concept of "oath" needs to be literal, nor do I think that it will be one singular arc. I think all of the plotlines will have some tinge of oathbreaking/lying/deceiving or the like. Whether it is viewed as Aliser Thorne's treason against his high commander, or Jon leaving the watch, or possibly a broken promise from Ned, Arya not really letting go of arya to be a proper No-One, Sansa going on the warpath (or at least plotting or thinking it) against her husband thus breaking their marriage vows.Danearys not wanting to remain with the Dosh Khaleen, breaking the custom of all widows staying there forever, I think that a lot of the arcs will have some way of connecting them to some sort of broken oath, or broken promise, lie or betrayal.

Kind of like home, where Bran is given visions of home, Theon states that he would like to go home, Euron returns home, Ramsay is fighting to keep his new home, and on the wall, Jon return to this world, which is also a kind of homecoming I suppose. there are tonnes of connections that could be made to the concept of Oathbreaker. Alternatively, Yes it could be argued that only one arc that the title refers to, (like the red woman), but my money is on it being a general theme rather than a direct reference to one. BUT if I had to pick one oathbreaker, I have to admit I like the idea of it being Ned.

[the tower of albion]

I think the oathbreaker will be Jamie taking up arms again against the Tullys which he swore not to do. Cersei wants him out of kings landing so she alone can influence to King. Then again Brienne is forever swearing oaths to people. Littlefingers bound to make an appearance this episode. (I wonder what will his accent will like this season? Quick tinfoil. Littlefingers accent keeps changing because in the show he is a cavalcade of faceless men! Baelish was removed from the game Years ago!)

[The Answer]

33 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

I think the oathbreaker will be Jamie taking up arms again against the Tullys which he swore not to do. Cersei wants him out of kings landing so she alone can influence to King. Then again Brienne is forever swearing oaths to people. Littlefingers bound to make an appearance this episode. (I wonder what will his accent will like this season? Quick tinfoil. Littlefingers accent keeps changing because in the show he is a cavalcade of faceless men! Baelish was removed from the game Years ago!)

Jaime YES

Littlefinger Lollol

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Oath breakers:

• Ned
• Jaime
• Jon
• Thorne & Ollie
• Sam (with Gilly)
• Jorah
• Greatjon Umber (almost)
• The Hound (abandoned his kingsguard post)
• Karstarks (abandoned Robb)
• Qyburn? (Did he break his maesters oath to the citadel?)

there's also a good chance of a connection with what really went down at the tower of joy.

[Jon Snow Bengal]

C'mon guys, if the episode was called "Promise breaker" it would be all too obvious wouldn't it? Plus it doesn't really sound as sexy. "Oathbreaker" has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

"Oathbreaker" can be used loosely and will be applied to loads of characters like what usually happens with a title. Creative license deems it can be applied to a solemn promise. Just because Ned never referred to the promise in the book as an oath doesn't mean jack because this is the TV show and GRRM did not write the title.

Lady Fishbiscuit has composed a great list of potential persons in the episode.

It's going to be a great episode! I've been waiting for ToJ for the whole series

[Stargaryen81]

I think Oathbreaker will be about a lot of different oaths being broken.  Jamie even says it himself "so many oaths taken, by following one you could simply be breaking another".  Such as, Ned becoming an Oathbreaker of his marriage to Catelyn by saying Jon is his with another woman.  Jon isn't giving up on the Night's Watch.  His main battle is still vs the White Walkers.  Currently, he has not cause to fight the Boltons, that doesn't mean he won't soon.  Night's Watch takes no part - but now they do Jon is now an Oathbreaker.  Edd getting the Wildlings to take over Castle Black - he is an Oathbreaker.  SmallJon breaking his oath to the Stark family by giving Rickon to Ramsay.  Dany relenting from permanently staying at the Dosh Khaleen - oathbreaker from her marriage with Drogo of the Dothraki.  Just providing a couple examples - the word "oathbreaker" will probably be used but I believe the theme is going against oaths and it will be plural, not just one thing. 

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 8:44 PM, ser charles candle said:

So the whole dying thing wont work as a loop hole?

I actually don't think it does.  Prior to his death his cause was still to fight the Walkers and get an army together to save Westeros.  Yes, it would have been nice for Jon to want to kill Ramsay in season 4 or 5.  But Jon hasn't had any actual beef with the Boltons besides the fact he would like revenge.  Ramsay, Sansa, Davos, Brienne, will instigate him fighting the Boltons.  If he wins the battle vs the Boltons and so does Sansa and so does Rickon, then those two are in charge of Winterfell, not Jon.  Jon may stick around and command armies but his main goal is to protect the realms of men. 

 

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 3:22 PM, ErasmusF said:

. Alliser Thorne will stand trial and will call Jon an oathbreaker. 

Owen Teal says the word traitor better than anyone!  He should never stop saying it.  I actually think Jon will make common cause with Alliser and let them all live - more bodies to fight the walkers.  But when the wall comes crumbling down I see Alliser dying from a piece of ice the size of an elephant landing on him!

 

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 2:57 AM, Shortspear Rick said:

I've never even considered the promise being anything other than to raise Jon and keep him safe, presumably by hiding his identity. This is an interesting idea though. It adds depth to how he feels about not telling the truth to Cat, especially if the promise was to raise Jon as a Targaryan. By not telling Cat, he's being dishonest to the two most important women in his life, her and Lyanna. He takes the easy way out by taking him as a bastard instead of the perilous choice of raising Jon as a contestant to the throne that his best friend Robert just won. He opts for peace instead of a continuation of the War of the Usurper. He could preserve stability in the kingdom and protect his only nephew in one fell swoop. Ned knew what befell Rhaegar's other children and if anything could cause the righteous Eddard Stark to betray honor it would be to preserve the only child of his beloved sister. Interesting theory, and absolutely plausible, I think. Not sure if I buy it yet. While I think its safe to say that the promise concerned Jon hopefully we'll find out this Sunday. Or.... "No. Now it ends." cut to black, we'll deal with Lyanna in her bed of blood in episode 4 - Book of the Stranger...

edit- I know they at least fight so it won't end that abruptly, it's just hard to expect an actual answer at this point. or they could just rush right through it all in a hurry. that would not surprise me either.

Very interesting - here is my take:  Why did Lyanna leave with Rhaegar "abduction"?  Remember she was tough to control, basically wild.  My point being she probably take things to far as in run away from home to be with the Prince who wooed her at harenhal without telling anyone.  She doesn't tell anyone, therefore people call it an abduction.  So she is young, naïve, and wild.  In love with the Prince who is obsessed with Prophecy - "hey Lyanna baby, my wife Elia will probably die if she has another baby.  but I need 3 heads to fight the darkness.  I only have 2 - see I was told by this woods witch that the prince who was promised would come from my father's bloodline.  Well Lyanna baby it isn't me so it has to be one of my kids.  The Targs and Starks never fulfilled their pact of ice an fire by marriage.  So why don't we do this, and make a baby!"  Young naïve wild Lyanna - "yeah let's do this oh sweet Prince".  Have to remember Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy and Lyanna was wild.  So Rhaegar dies, Kingsguard Dies and Ned and Howland get to Lyanna.  She said - he is the prince who was promised you need raise him as a Targ - promise me Ned you will let Jon soar!  Ned says yes to please his sister before she dies.  But he doesn't do it in fear of Robert's wrath, so he lies.  He breaks his oath to Lyanna, in turn, his lie then makes him break his oath to Catelyn.  Ned probably making the best decision out of all the options without killing anyone becomes a two timing oathbreaker! 

 

I def. don't think we will see a Flashback of Jamie stabbing the mad King, he has never been that focal point to deserve a flashback.  All other flashbacks serve a purpose to the story.  We know what happens with Jamie and mad king, waste of valuable story telling showing us something we already know. UNLESS he didn't tell us everything that happened that eventful day.  I know some think that is what we are seeing of the shadows of someone stabbing someone in the back from the trailer.  I actually think that Obara Sand stabbing The Mountain from behind - only to realize that won't kill him.  We all kind of knew but weren't sure.  So yeah I think that shot is obara stabbing the mountain then the Mountain just killing her. 

I hope they don't end the episode on the vision.  Seriously a cliffhanger on a vision?  That just means they didn't have any better way to end an episode because that is just terrible.  We may not see the whole TOJ scene.  The vision will end once the battle is over - not showing us Ned and Howland going to the tower.  Or Bran doesn't see what actually happens in the tower - just Ned going in and Ned coming out with a baby.  But def. don't end in the middle of a vision, that would be straight crap!

[Stargaryen81]

2 hours ago, the tower of albion said:

I think the oathbreaker will be Jamie taking up arms again against the Tullys which he swore not to do. Cersei wants him out of kings landing so she alone can influence to King. Then again Brienne is forever swearing oaths to people. Littlefingers bound to make an appearance this episode. (I wonder what will his accent will like this season? Quick tinfoil. Littlefingers accent keeps changing because in the show he is a cavalcade of faceless men! Baelish was removed from the game Years ago!)

I think it is too soon in the season for that to take place.  I think we know he goes to Riverrun at some point - but will need at least an episode to travel and they haven't even build up that siege yet.  Haven't even mentioned the siege going on.  I think he will free Margeray by show of force here soon - it will piss Cersei off.  Jamie does something that pisses Cersei off so she sends him to resolve the siege at Riverrun.  That is why he isn't around for her battle by combat. 

[VenezuelanLord]

3 hours ago, The Answer said:

Can't argue with the gist of this, especially Jon's upcoming NW departure.. 

I used this opportunity (seeing ToJ in preview) to remind folks that sure, we are fairly certain of most that took place at the ToJ, and of Jon's parentage... but we're not certain that Ned fulfilled his promise to Lyanna.  Is he the Oathbreaker? Maybe not in this episode... but he could very well be the Promise-breaker (for you horribly anal folks) in a later episode when the promise is revealed.  

of course, we dont know what ned promised.. she could have asked that he smashed the baby against the wall (unlikely, since the starks are SUPER protective of their family) or that he claimed the crown for jon, as true heir son of rhaegar ( unlikely in the series, i mean in the books maybe, GRRM have plenty of time to come up with a way to prove Jon´s legitimacy, some people think the prove its inside lyanna´s grave, but D&D doesnt have the time to pull that off ) or the promise could be what most readers think (me included), just to protect jon, and love him like his own, dont get me wrong, ned could have broken this one too, depends in how you look at it.. after all he went south to play the game of thrones and jon went to the wall, were he wasnt safe at all..

[ErasmusF]

On 5/3/2016 at 8:44 PM, ser charles candle said:

So the whole dying thing wont work as a loop hole?

Not with Ser Alliser.

[239JMFL34109]

22 hours ago, The Answer said:

You write like you spoke to George two nights ago at Sunday Supper.. you can't possibly be so cretain in your interpretation? 

What are you going to do if Ned completely let his sister down? 

all of it is my opinion but so is pretty much all of these boards where people share their opinions. We never get anything that really implies Ned POV that he failed his sister. Only a mystery as to what the promise is and why it is important to the story. 

also what i am going? keep reading? this is a book( and now tv show) i read for fun! 

Nothing would work better in the series right now that to show the old KG keeping their oaths to the death and contrasting it with jaime's most famous moment. 

[ErasmusF]

Quote

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

It may very well be that Ned broke an oath to Lyanna, but I dug up this quote that suggests he also kept some of those promises. If I were a betting man, if we're taking it to mean Ned is an Oathbreaker, then it's probably that he promised to raise Jon as one of his own AND to one day tell him who his true parents are. 

It's also possible that the term "oathbreaker" gets thrown at Dayne & co. since they aren't and weren't "protecting the king."

I'm really not skeptical that Ned would be considered as "oathbreaker" based on something he didn't do for Lyanna, but more that there is very little chance they will be able to present the battle and bed of blood scene in a single episode. 

[239JMFL34109]

28 minutes ago, ErasmusF said:

It may very well be that Ned broke an oath to Lyanna, but I dug up this quote that suggests he also kept some of those promises. If I were a betting man, if we're taking it to mean Ned is an Oathbreaker, then it's probably that he promised to raise Jon as one of his own AND to one day tell him who his true parents are. 

It's also possible that the term "oathbreaker" gets thrown at Dayne & co. since they aren't and weren't "protecting the king."

I'm really not skeptical that Ned would be considered as "oathbreaker" based on something he didn't do for Lyanna, but more that there is very little chance they will be able to present the battle and bed of blood scene in a single episode. 

Well if jon is their king? And they are supposed to follow the orders of the king's family and all that. 

I like the idea that we get to question who was the better person?

the person who killed 5 people to protect someone that would not have been attack by those people in the first place

OR

The person who broke his oath to save millions of people he never meet?

jamie saved more people killing that evil man than Dayne ever did and is hated for breaking his oath. 

While Arthur kill maybe 5 good men to save no one and yet he is loved and respected. 

 

[sandpiper]

239JMF, I really like this black becomes white, good becomes bad concept. The questions of who or what is truly good or bad and ambiguity about it  is littered through the story.

I agree with people who say the title will be a theme as much as one person. What i like even more is the idea of setting up one central person as oathbreaker, with others  doing less clear things, but the reality being other than we believe it.

So I can really see Jon being portrayed as the oathbreaker of the title. Maybe even Sansa finally arrives at the wall and begs him for help, so he gives a solemn promise to avenge her and his family. Thorne would indeed attack Jon in his own defence by saying Jon had given up commanding the watch by choice and here was the final evidence. I am certain a good lawyer would argue the oath to the nights watch was ended by Jon's death, but then another one would argue back that it was not. It is not perfectly clear cut from the wording. You could also argue he might be freed from the letter, but not the spirit.

There is another matter here too. We are getting very excited about learning officially what happened in the tower of joy, but in show terms, it is just Bran in a cave in the middle of very inhospitable nowhere  who is seeing this. That is far away from telling anyone important who might be influenced by this, never mind proving it somehow to the rest of the world. I expect Jon would believe his 'brother', but I cannot see Cersei politely giving up any claim to the throne for her family.

So I can see Jon deciding to fight for the family honour, perhaps news of being legitimised by Rob gets to him too and he takes on the role of Lord stark, king in the north. While at the same time we as viewers learn he is no son of Ned at all.

But I also love the idea of the suspense and general confusion of the viewer which could result from us getting only half the story. We are arguing now about Ned as oathbreaker because of what people have theorised behind the bare facts in the books. perfectly legitimate for the show to do the same. Partly explain Jon's parentage, and show Ned making a promise without being clear what.

So it is possible for the show to portray Jon as the oathbreaker of the title while showing us key events of Ned breaking his own word, while we as viewers do not realise it is Ned who made the bigger promise and wholly failed to keep it. Bran's vision is just that, a vision. If he was talking to someone he would get the chance to ask questions. What we will get is the Raven saying 'enough for now'.

On a different level, who is the bigger oathbreaker: Jamie for killing the king he was sworn to protect, or Ned - not so much for going into revolt against a mad king who was destroying his own kingdom (the same motive as Jamie), but as a lord who had sworn fealty to House Targaryen  but then abducts and hides away the true heir. ( Just to be contrary, I see a loophole in my own argument, because I am not sure Ned ever did get round to swearing fealty to house Targaryen in his own right as Lord Stark.)

 

 

 

[GeorgeIAF]

The broken promise is Ned having Jon legitimized as a Stark. 

[NedStark2013]

Is it possible Ned had a hand in dany and the kings wife escaping kings landing. Could it be that dany is Ned s niece and Jon was the mad kings son and they switched babies and Ned's vow was to care for and love dany . maybe keeping Jon was his way of keeping one targ safe but in kingslanding area. If Jon is the mad kings son why the black hair. Maybe azor ahai had black hair and its Jon recarnation.

[239JMFL34109]

2 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

The broken promise is Ned having Jon legitimized as a Stark. 

except jon was born the legit?!?!?!!?

i doubt he ever made an oath to legitimise jon no matter the legalize of his birth. 

13 minutes ago, NedStark2013 said:

Is it possible Ned had a hand in dany and the kings wife escaping kings landing. Could it be that dany is Ned s niece and Jon was the mad kings son and they switched babies and Ned's vow was to care for and love dany . maybe keeping Jon was his way of keeping one targ safe but in kingslanding area. If Jon is the mad kings son why the black hair. Maybe azor ahai had black hair and its Jon recarnation.

They were not in KL in the books for them to even need to escape KL. they were in the book on Dragonstone. no idea if they will bring this up on the show? also how did ned sneak into dragonstone and get the baby in their past all the maesters and knights would be my question for the rest because enough people were there to confirm dany was born on dragonstone in the books at least. 

also R+L=D, why would that matter? waste of a plot line that doesn't change anything. Girl who think she is the last of her line? turns out she is still the last of her line...

While i think jon finds out about r+l=j i doubt it becomes general knowledge. it would be very game of thrones for only a few people ever to know or like jon hailed as a hero for killing dany with him being the only one knowing that he kill his kin.