Fair Game: a documentary about Game of Thrones

[Neds Secret]

11 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Yes, we've debunked the time excuse countless times ; unless you can bring factual evidence of the show always effectively managing time, there's no need to wave the strawman.

Yes, Peter Jackson managed to successfully adapt the lord of the rings trilogy into about 9 or 10 hours of screen time but somehow D$D cannot possibly find the time to successfully adapt AsoiaF in 8 seasons of 10 hour episodes, Just not possible ( unless they hired some writers who knew how to write)!

[Wilnova]

22 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

But the problem is time, then why are they including scenes like Poor Ramsay and Myranda? Why are they spending time on Arya constantly getting hit by a sick? Why are they actually redoing the Northern and the Meereen storyline for the second time? Why did they waste their time on that stupid storyline in Dorne? Why did they spend time on Hardhome which only served as jeey big fight? 

The problem is not time but it is their time management. Nobody is disappointed they are excluding characters like Gerris Drinkwater or Robett Glover (as their fan I am actually happy they are not in the show?) But the problem is that they are making weird allocation choices with their time.

What would you allocate the time for then? Sansa feeding SR his dinner in the Vale?

They spend time on Ramsay because he is currently the human primary antagonist in the North on the show. They need to build up the bad guy so that when the Starks finally retake Winterfell, the victory resonates. In the books he is the one who taunts Jon with the Pink Letter and Jon breaks his oaths to go kill him with an army of Wildlings

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By now she'd be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child. "I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you." Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton's throat as easily.

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The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.

They spend time on Arya getting hit with a stick because Arya gets hit with a stick in the books. Arya is a major character and they are adapting her book story. Sure it's not done all that well and they removed the whole warging Nymeria bit (As they did with Jon) but Arya's training montage with the FM is more or less her book story. As for the Northern storyline, they have trimmed it of its many characters and seem to be giving us a more streamlined version with changes here and there. They seem to be doing the same with Meereen. Unless the next book comes out we really cannot say much about Meereen and the Dothraki.

Hardhome should be an easy answer. Hardhome is where the show excelled compared to the books. The show actually showed us the threat of the Others while Martin has been dithering on them for 5 books. Now the viewers know why the Stark motto is 'Winter is coming' and how and why the Others are an actual existential threat. Hardhome is a result of the show's fast moving pace and telling the story its supposed to say as opposed to Brienne wandering the countryside looking for a maiden.

 

[Tijgy]

- Yeah, after three seasons of Ramsay torturing people, who do still to have to establish a scene where he feeds his girlfriend to his dogs. Yeah, we still needed that scene to know him  

- The problem with Arya is they did this in three episodes? They should have at least left one scene out. 

- Hardhome ... was the most foolish thing ever. They completely wrote Jon's storyline with the goal of sending him there which made the logic of it completely absurd. And now it did not brought anything new.. The WW are dangerous. We know that for example from the Fist, NW's retreat and the WW wanted to cross the Wall because of the WW. The only thing you could learn from that scene was everyone forgot fire was useful in the fight against the wights which actually distracted me a large part of the episode because the only thing I could think was  "Why are they not using fire?"  Just a bunch of waste of time and money if you want to streamline. If you like action, it is probably nice to watch it. I will not deny that. 

- And Brienne actually spend the whole time looking for a candle?   

-  The scene with Tyrion and GreyMiss was so useful to pace the story? And never forget "oh we have a fleet", oops the fleet is burned 

- Dorne was a waste. The only thing they succeeded in was offending people. We did not had to see the SS and Faullaria kill everyone off? They could have just let it being said in the Small Council. Also waste of time and money. 

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

- Yeah, after three seasons of Ramsay torturing people, who do still to have to establish a scene where he feeds his girlfriend to his dogs. Yeah, we still needed that scene to know him  

- The problem with Arya is they did this in three episodes? They should have at least left one scene out. 

- Hardhome ... was the most foolish thing ever. They completely wrote Jon's storyline with the goal of sending him there which made the logic of it completely absurd. And now it did not brought anything new.. The WW are dangerous. We know that for example from the Fist, NW's retreat and the WW wanted to cross the Wall because of the WW. The only thing you could learn from that scene was everyone forgot fire was useful in the fight against the wights which actually distracted me a large part of the episode because the only thing I could think was  "Why are they not using fire?"  Just a bunch of waste of time and money if you want to streamline. If you like action, it is probably nice to watch it. I will not deny that. 

- And Brienne actually spend the whole time looking for a candle?   

-  The scene with Tyrion and GreyMiss was so useful to pace the story? And never forget "oh we have a fleet", oops the fleet is burned 

- Dorne was a waste. The only thing they succeeded in was offending people. We did not had to see the SS and Faullaria kill everyone off? They could have just let it being said in the Small Council. Also waste of time and money. 

All good points, but the bold is my favourite. The argument that Ramsay Sue needs to be showcased as much as he has been [for years now], and that they have to build him up so that when Littlefinger swoops in to save the useless Starks it will resonate with the audience is just hilarious. 

[Meera of Tarth]

3 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

The main limiting factor the show has is not money, its time. The show has a limited number of episodes it can make, and a limited number of seasons it can realistically run for. If they want to ever finish the show and not do a Martin, they need to cut things and focus on the core story. I'm not sure how that is even up for debate and even the most hardened book fan would agree.
 

They have a limited number of episodes but they have managed to cover many storylines form the previous books before in a limited number of 10 episodes. So the point is not this. Apart from that, the show is full of fillings: GreyWorm and Missandei love affaire, Myranda and Ramsay being together, brothels, Arya being beaten with a stick for 3 episodes, Jaime being stupid with Cersei........

So they have managed to do fillings+almost all the storylines from the previous book. Why not now? If it's for the difficulty of adapting, my answer is summarise (explained in the second post).

And the limited number of seasons is not  a problem. HBO said that they wanted 10 seasons!! I don't think the show should last for so long, but there's no reason to rush to the ending, except that the showrunners are tired don't have ideas/source.

Now they are far beyond these books, and considering there are 2 books left of 3000 pages I can't understand why they are rushing to the ending. I'm pretty sure the ending is not as simple as GRRM possibily didn't tell them everything that happens but, surely, a great part of it; so to focus on the story without plotholes, they should not be cutting many things they cut.

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The other thing even the most hardened book fan should agree on is that the last 2 books are not the same as the first 3. You suggest that the show isn't what it used to be, but then it was based on books that were far different back then. Those books were relatively simple tales and were far less expansive than AFFC and ADWD. If you can't accept that then its not worth continuing.

I have argueed that the last two books are different from the first ones and more difficult to adapt. I am not disagreeing on that and, as I stated before, I accept that. So, please, don't keep saying I don't accept that, because that would mean you are not reading what I'm answering and I actually read your posts before answering.

 I suggest that  if they read the books and summarise them, they can still do a good adaptation with the main plots; summarising is not the easiest of the things, but it's still possible, and it has been done before. Maybe they would have to pay more actors, I'm sure; but I'll explain again my suggestion on Dorne in more detail:

Instead of having Ellaria and 3 Sand Snakes, have only Ellaria and  Sand Snake. Then you would pay for less actors. After all, Oberyn, in S4 said haid (I don't remember the number,  so apologise me if I'm wrong, but I think he said 8 daughters) so it's irrelevant whether we have one sand snake or three or 8. They haven't shown the 8 daughters. You don't have to do exactly the same things; but Arianne with a couple of people and Myrcella's real plot, for instance.

Anyway, if you are cutting Arianne why have 3+Ellaria Sand Snakes? Will they all 4 be relevant for the ending? I don't think so.

And they are doing a good thing with the Iron Plot: they have managed to summarise the book and now they are focusing on them!! SO, if they have done it with this plot, and they have cut Victarion (I'm "fine" with it, you can't have all the characters from the books) then, there's no reason to think that they couldn't have done it the same with the other storylines from Feast and Dance, unless they don't have more ideas, and I think that's because they have not book source.

(Why don't they call Martin, maybe he would tell them some things, even invented things which would make more sense than theirs)

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

 

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GreyWorm and Missandei love affaire, Myranda and Ramsay being together, brothels, Arya being beaten with a stick for 3 episodes, Jaime being stupid with Cersei........

I argued this above, but there is a huge difference between the inclusion of tiny scenes and entire storylines. You could cut out all of the above and have no way to include even a 10th of the Aegon storyline.

So how do you include the Aegon storyline in the show without it massively pushing everything else out? Its one of the biggest changes and it has knock on effects. Without Aegon, Dorne becomes far less relevant. 

You say you understand the books are different but you've shown zero understanding of how different they are or how you would include the material you are calling for

[HairGrowsBack]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

How have you possibly debunked it. Please describe to me how you'd get all of the plots in AFFC and ADWD into 8 seasons, with 10 episodes a season. Nonsense.

It was never about having every scene from AFFC and ADWD adapted. It was about  them either competely making up pointless storylines and/or characters (Missandei/Greyworm, Olly, Olyvar, Jaime and Bronn in Dorne,etc..) or expending minor storylines and/or characters that have little relevance to the main plot (and given the main plot is all you care about, you should be able to acknowledge that)

[Meera of Tarth]

17 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

 

I argued this above, but there is a huge difference between the inclusion of tiny scenes and entire storylines. You could cut out all of the above and have no way to include even a 10th of the Aegon storyline.
 

No, I'm talking about Ramsay and Myranda love affaire, in particular. Why does Ramsay have to have a love affaire when they are avoiding many romances, and Ramsay is a killer? 

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Arya's story seems to be important towards the endgame, especially as the show is centred around the remaining Starks. Her scenes were very short but obviously setting something up. 

I agree with that. But that has nothing to do with the stick that lasts 3 episodes.

Consider you have 3 episodes to tell Arya's storyline being blind, but still the 3 episodes can be used for telling things than happened before/after in her chapters, since the order doesn't matter.

Do you think that with 3 episodes Arya's storyline in the books has to be summarised in 3 stick violence for 3 episodes? If so, why?

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You say you understand the books are different but you've shown zero understanding of how different they are or how you would include the material you are calling for

I've put an example of Dorne and you say I have zero understanding. Can't agree, obviously.

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So how do you include the Aegon storyline in the show without it massively pushing everything else out? Its one of the biggest changes and it has knock on effects. Without Aegon, Dorne becomes far less relevant. 
 

You can put Aegon with an actress and make them do some things. The show should last more time, though. If they are not relevant, there's an easy solution: use one sand snake and kill them. It has happened in this show in less than five minutes. Two 3 birds with one stone. Of course, not everything has to be in the show. Maybe Aegon's storyline is not as important, but still.....

You don't know if Dorne becomes less (irr)elevant without him. I don't know. You can not say it becomes less relevant when we had a story, perfectly settled in the Alcazar of Seville (locations are always good) and then the result of the storyline (and many actors) is that they are killed so quickly. It would be more relevant than what the show did. Don't you agree?

[HairGrowsBack]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think arguing over the inclusion of incredibly short scenes over entire storylines is a poor way of thinking. Sure you might have your favourite bits they have excluded, and some scenes you don't like but that isn't the choice they are making. 

The Ramsey Myranda scene was actually a set up for Roose and Ramsey, and some tieing up of things from S5. Ramsey and Roose are important in a number of major plot lines, so the scene is perfectly valid. 

Arya's story seems to be important towards the endgame, especially as the show is centred around the remaining Starks. Her scenes were very short but obviously setting something up. 

Its possible Dorne plays a role further on and is necessary to get endgame elements happening, but even now its been highly reduced in scope.

Hardhome was awesome, but also was reasonably important in setting up the endgame, showing how close the WW are. 

 

Have the characters simply not forget about the WW (as they do in the show), and have the creepy letter, would have been 100% more effective than a pointless (not to mention expensive) battle.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

9 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Have the characters simply not forget about the WW (as they do in the show), and have the creepy letter, would have been 100% more effective than a pointless (not to mention expensive) battle.

Well I can categorically say that is wrong, and its obviously wrong too. Not sure how you imagine the threat of the WW is more powerful when read out in a letter than it is by actually showing the horror. 

Also you ignore all the functions that Hardhome performed:

1) It SHOWS the White Walker threat, you know, the big event that pretty much the entire series and books have been building up to. You know how that first scene in the show is about the threat of the WW, about how Winter is Coming. It fixes a big flaw in Martins work, getting 5 books in and having the major threat to Westeros be barely mentioned and having progressed about 5 inches.. almost as if he'd forgotten about it. 

2) It helps to show the connection between Jon and the Wildlings and give them a reason to trust him in season 6 when he leads them south. 

3) It establishes the tension between Jon and Thorne, Jon going all that way to save some wildling and risk losing NW men over it. 

4) It showed that Jons sword was an effective weapon against the WW.

5) It added some sort of energy to a season that was devoid of much event, which follows as its an adaptation of 2 books that have little in the way of event or action.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

d

23 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No, I'm talking about Ramsay and Myranda love affaire, in particular. Why does Ramsay have to have a love affaire when they are avoiding many romances, and Ramsay is a killer? 

I agree with that. But that has nothing to do with the stick that lasts 3 episodes.

Consider you have 3 episodes to tell Arya's storyline being blind, but still the 3 episodes can be used for telling things than happened before/after in her chapters, since the order doesn't matter.

Do you think that with 3 episodes Arya's storyline in the books has to be summarised in 3 stick violence for 3 episodes? If so, why?

I've put an example of Dorne and you say I have zero understanding. Can't agree, obviously.

You can put Aegon with an actress and make them do some things. The show should last more time, though. If they are not relevant, there's an easy solution: use one sand snake and kill them. It has happened in this show in less than five minutes. Two 3 birds with one stone. Of course, not everything has to be in the show. Maybe Aegon's storyline is not as important, but still.....

You don't know if Dorne becomes less (irr)elevant without him. I don't know. You can not say it becomes less relevant when we had a story, perfectly settled in the Alcazar of Seville (locations are always good) and then the result of the storyline (and many actors) is that they are killed so quickly. It would be more relevant than what the show did. Don't you agree?

Ugh, lost my post. The point I was making was that you are simply talking about a number of tiny insignificant scenes, that took up very little space or time, and helped to flesh out existing characters. That isn't the answer to adding in all the storylines you wanted in their place. 

Aryas blind story wasn't 3 episodes.. it was 3 very small scenes contained within 3 episodes. Theres is a large difference to how you described it. Plus you need to understand that shes been blinded and that its a sacrifice, wiping it out quickly makes it lose its significance.

You say you suggested how to do Dorne.. but your solution is to just change character names! You've put no thought into why to even include Dorne or why anyone would be interested in a storyline that bares no significance to any other plot. And yes, Aegon is going to be a major point of the future Dorne book storyline, the released chapter suggests it heavily. But since he's not in the show Dornes role is greatly reduced. 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

7 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

 

Ugh, lost my post. The point I was making was that you are simply talking about a number of tiny insignificant scenes, that took up very little space or time, and helped to flesh out existing characters. That isn't the answer to adding in all the storylines you wanted in their place. 

Aryas blind story wasn't 3 episodes.. it was 3 very small scenes contained within 3 episodes. Theres is a large difference to how you described it. Plus you need to understand that shes been blinded and that its a sacrifice, wiping it out quickly makes it lose its significance.



 

I'm not saying she has to return to be able to see again quickly as the unique solution!

Do you think her story in Braavos even with 3 scenes (not than tiny) can be summarised in only being beaten?

I have a solution which involves her still being blind, but I won't tell it, because I prefer you answer me first with your suggestion. If you don't have it, I'll suppose you agree that her storyline is only being beaten

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You say you suggested how to do Dorne.. but your solution is to just change character names! You've put no thought into why to even include Dorne or why anyone would be interested in a storyline that bares no significance to any other plot. And yes, Aegon is going to be a major point of the future Dorne book storyline, the released chapter suggests it heavily. But since he's not in the show Dornes role is greatly reduced. 

This was not my solution! Won't repeat it again

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I'm not saying she has to return to be able to see again quickly as the unique solution!

Do you think her story in Braavos even with 3 scenes (not than tiny) can be summarised in only being beaten?

I have a solution which involves her still being blind, but I won't tell it, because I prefer you answer me first with your suggestion. If you don't have it, I'll suppose you agree that her storyline is only being beaten

 

Her storyline was that she had her sight removed and she learnt how to use her other senses. I think they did ok with it, although I could have done without the training montage.  My point is that it didn't take up much time.

[Meera of Tarth]

9 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Her storyline was that she had her sight removed and she learnt how to use her other senses. I think they did ok with it, although I could have done without the training montage.  My point is that it didn't take up much time.

But don't you think her story in Braavos is about other things too? DOn't you think these things could have been included even being blind?

A good summary is not only about cutting things, but being able to condense the essence of all the training. Not only the one related to discover her senses. That is what I'm referring to.

[HairGrowsBack]

25 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Well I can categorically say that is wrong, and its obviously wrong too. Not sure how you imagine the threat of the WW is more powerful when read out in a letter than it is by actually showing the horror. 

Also you ignore all the functions that Hardhome performed:

1) It SHOWS the White Walker threat, you know, the big event that pretty much the entire series and books have been building up to. You know how that first scene in the show is about the threat of the WW, about how Winter is Coming. It fixes a big flaw in Martins work, getting 5 books in and having the major threat to Westeros be barely mentioned and having progressed about 5 inches.. almost as if he'd forgotten about it. 

2) It helps to show the connection between Jon and the Wildlings and give them a reason to trust him in season 6 when he leads them south. 

3) It establishes the tension between Jon and Thorne, Jon going all that way to save some wildling and risk losing NW men over it. 

4) It showed that Jons sword was an effective weapon against the WW.

5) It added some sort of energy to a season that was devoid of much event, which follows as its an adaptation of 2 books that have little in the way of event or action.

1) If the writers were any good, they'd be able to do just that without having to rely on a flashy battle sequence. The battle had no impact or follow up whatsoever. And it is very disingenuous to say the books don't have us keep the WW in mind, when they are constantly brought up by a variety of characters. The letter does a much better job at making you feel the  dread of the WW, because : you're aware of what they're capable of, but in a very cryptic way, which is always more effective than showing.It's horror 101.  Hardhome completely demystifies the WW ; I felt like I was watching Pirate of the Caribbean.

2) Had the show not gone out of its way to make Jon look like an idiot in s2 and 3, and shown him actually bond with the wildling during that time, that wouldn't have been necessary.

3) Allowing the wildlings to pass the Wall and giving them lands in the Gift would have been enough. Here it just makes Jon look like a huge dummy, again.

4) Which everyone and their mother already guessed.

5) Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Key dangling.

[Dragon in the North]

12 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

1) If the writers were any good, they'd be able to do just that without having to rely on a flashy battle sequence. The battle had no impact or follow up whatsoever. And it is very disingenuous to say the books don't have us keep the WW in mind, when they are constantly brought up by a variety of characters. The letter does a much better job at making you feel the  dread of the WW, because : you're aware of what they're capable of, but in a very cryptic way, which is always more effective than showing.It's horror 101.  Hardhome completely demystifies the WW ; I felt like I was watching Pirate of the Caribbean.

2) Had the show not gone out of its way to make Jon look like an idiot in s2 and 3, and shown him actually bond with the wildling during that time, that wouldn't have been necessary.

3) Allowing the wildlings to pass the Wall and giving them lands in the Gift would have been enough. Here it just makes Jon look like a huge dummy, again.

4) Which everyone and their mother already guessed.

5) Yes, that's what I'm talking about. Key dangling.

1. Speak for yourself. Hardhome made a huge impact on both book readers and show watchers alike. Even hardcore book fans thought that Hardhome was one of the best decisions the showrunners have ever made. The point of Hardhome was that it brought the plot into focus and allowed those watching the show, not just Jon Snow, just how insignificant the War of Five Kings really is. Reading the events off a piece of paper may work in a book, but it would make for terrible television, which has always been a visual medium.

3. Forming an alliance with a powerful ally is not a stupid decision. 

4. Book readers have guessed it. Show watchers had no clue until Jon killed the White Walker with Longclaw.

 

[HairGrowsBack]

2 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

1. Speak for yourself. Hardhome made a huge impact on both book readers and show watchers alike. Even hardcore book fans thought that Hardhome was one of the best decisions the showrunners have ever made. The point of Hardhome was that it brought the plot into focus and allowed those watching the show, not just Jon Snow, just how insignificant the War of Five Kings really is. Reading the events off a piece of paper may work in a book, but it would make for terrible television, which has always been a visual medium.

3. Forming an alliance with a powerful ally is not a stupid decision. 

4. Book readers have guessed it. Show watchers had no clue until Jon killed the White Walker with Longclaw.

 

1 I always only speak for myself. And my two other personalities. The "reading ominous words of something happening far away" has been used in a visual medium many times before, and effectively so. As I said, I think HH demystified the threat, notably by making their abilities inconsistent.

3. I did not say Jon forming an alliance was a stupid decision (and it's something that is present in both media, so i don't see why I would be complaining about it); what i said is going to HH and risking his and everyone's life for nothing was a stpid decision.

4. Again, it's the show's job to emphasize the important elements in the story : Valyrian steel is important, yet there has been little to no emphasis on the swords. It should have been done consistently every season. They had Mormont give Jon Longclaw, they only needed to keep it up. 

[Dragon in the North]

7 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

1 I always only speak for myself. And my two other personalities. The "reading ominous words of something happening far away" has been used in a visual medium many times before, and effectively so. As I said, I think HH demystified the threat, notably by making their abilities inconsistent.

3. I did not say Jon forming an alliance was a stupid decision (and it's something that is present in both media, so i don't see why I would be complaining about it); what i said is going to HH and risking his and everyone's life for nothing was a stpid decision.

4. Again, it's the show's job to emphasize the important elements in the story : Valyrian steel is important, yet there has been little to no emphasis on the swords. It should have been done consistently every season. They had Mormont give Jon Longclaw, they only needed to keep it up. 

1. The White Walkers have been mysterious for almost five seasons. We're nearing the endgame. It's time for the White Walkers to step out of the shadows and into the spotlight. I hope in the books the White Walkers don't only appear in full force at the very end.

3. Jon Snow went to Hardhome to save thousands of wildlings from a fate worse than death. Even though there was a massacre, Jon still managed to save a whole lot of wildlings that may assist him in his fight with the White Walkers. 

4. They mention Valyrian steel mostly every season and have shown that its unique. I'm not sure what else you wanted them to do.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

15 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

 

3. I did not say Jon forming an alliance was a stupid decision (and it's something that is present in both media, so i don't see why I would be complaining about it); what i said is going to HH and risking his and everyone's life for nothing was a stpid decision.

 

Even if it was a stupid decision, that is the sort of stupid decision Jon would make. 

[HairGrowsBack]

4 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

1. The White Walkers have been mysterious for almost five seasons. We're nearing the endgame. It's time for the White Walkers to step out of the shadows and into the spotlight. I hope in the books the White Walkers don't only appear in full force at the very end.

3. Jon Snow went to Hardhome to save thousands of wildlings from a fate worse than death. Even though there was a massacre, Jon still managed to save a whole lot of wildlings that may assist him in his fight with the White Walkers. 

4. They mention Valyrian steel mostly every season and have shown that its unique. I'm not sure what else you wanted them to do.

1 And I hope they won't turn out to be mere glorified zombie in Samourai armour. I mean, your argument makes sense (although I think they work better if they stay mysterious until the very end), but we didn't learn much more than we what we already knew from the three times we'd seen them.

3. He left with his tail between his legs, and I doubt the wildlings he saved will be helping him much, as they're mostly children, AND he had to sacrificed actually trained men to save them.

4. If they mention it every season and point out how special it is, then your previous point is null.

7 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Even if it was a stupid decision, that is the sort of stupid decision Jon would make. 

Early books Jon ? Probably, yes . ADWD Jon ? I doubt it.

Show Jon ? Definitely, because , unlike book Jon, he hasn't evolved one bit as a character.