The monkeys growing?

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, LS1Transam said:

By progress report i just mean something like "I'm xx% done and i have no idea when i'll be able to finish".  Though speculation from outside of his hardcore readers would go wild, but i think most of us who were fans of his from before the show would just be happy knowing where he stands right now.  

I can certainly understand why he wouldnt want to do this, but I just wish he'd do it as a show of respect for his long time fans.

But such an update - "I have X% done and have no idea when I'll be done" - would leave us exactly where we are right now, the only difference is we don't know how much X% is. And I really don't see how an update that gives us no real info on when can we expect the book as a show of respect for his fans. And for the record, I absolutely do not agree that Martin has no respect for his fans. 

[Masha]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

But such an update - "I have X% done and have no idea when I'll be done" - would leave us exactly where we are right now, the only difference is we don't know how much X% is. And I really don't see how an update that gives us no real info on when can we expect the book as a show of respect for his fans. And for the record, I absolutely do not agree that Martin has no respect for his fans. 

Ehh, from what I can see his relationship with fans is dual-natured. 

Martin likes the fame, adulation of his fans hanging on to his every word, constant invitations to every fantasy, fiction book, and similar events in the world and hanging out with famous people. But he hates that his fans expect him to deliver his next book and keep asking and hinting about it. He'd rather go on this convention and talk about everything, including politics, and all the details from his World and other works, but he hates it that he is expected to talk about next book, its release, and the fans expectations. Basically, he behaves like he is finished his work and hates the reminders that he has ways to go before he actually is.

[mattnj81]

There's an awful lot of trash-talking about GRRM going on in this thread. I hope once TWOW is (finally) released, everyone here saying "He's just given up and will never finish," "He doesn't care anymore," "He has no regard for his fans," etc. etc. etc. will come back and admit they have no f*cking clue what they're talking about and are just making shit up because they're pissed the book isn't out yet. 

I want to read the damn thing too. Everyone is desperate to see what happens with Jon's resurrection, the Battle in the Snow, the Battle in Meereen, King's Landing, the Ironborn... but a bunch of keyboard warriors insulting someone from the anonymous safety of the internet? Complain all you want about the delay, 99% of the internet is just people bitching and moaning anyway. But anyone pretending to know what is going on inside a stranger's head should realize that they're utterly full of shit.

[SuperMario]

33 minutes ago, Masha said:

Ehh, from what I can see his relationship with fans is dual-natured. 

Martin likes the fame, adulation of his fans hanging on to his every word, constant invitations to every fantasy, fiction book, and similar events in the world and hanging out with famous people. But he hates that his fans expect him to deliver his next book and keep asking and hinting about it. He'd rather go on this convention and talk about everything, including politics, and all the details from his World and other works, but he hates it that he is expected to talk about next book, its release, and the fans expectations. Basically, he behaves like he is finished his work and hates the reminders that he has ways to go before he actually is.

I agree with this. As much as I like George, I feel his stress and dissatisfaction with TWOW has bled out into his interactions with his fans. Not all the time or all of the fans, but I think he definitely has some disdain for some fans at times.

I posted something a few months back about being optimistic about the release date. But now with all of his newly scheduled events including World Con in Kansas City in August, I am starting to move towards the camp that he might not finish even TWOW until after the show finishes in 2018. Just my opinion.

[kissdbyfire]

26 minutes ago, Masha said:

Ehh, from what I can see his relationship with fans is dual-natured. 

Martin likes the fame, adulation of his fans hanging on to his every word, constant invitations to every fantasy, fiction book, and similar events in the world and hanging out with famous people. But he hates that his fans expect him to deliver his next book and keep asking and hinting about it. He'd rather go on this convention and talk about everything, including politics, and all the details from his World and other works, but he hates it that he is expected to talk about next book, its release, and the fans expectations. Basically, he behaves like he is finished his work and hates the reminders that he has ways to go before he actually is.

That may be your impression, but that's all it is, your impression. I can understand why he doesn't want to talk about his progress and why he gets annoyed with people constantly asking, often times at the most inappropriate moments. 

As I've said before, regular updates saying, "X% done!" would mean fuck all. Because as Martin has said a gazillion times, he's a gardener. So he could post an update on August 1st saying, "99% done!" and then stumble onto a problem, a glitch in the narrative/flow that could get him stuck for months on end and even require re-writes of previously finished chapters. 

And it is annoying to have people asking about it all the time, and everyone losing their shit regularly because of what people see as "hints" that the book is done in everything he says and does. Especially because he has said many times already that when he's done he'll post it on his NaB. 

 

1 minute ago, mattnj81 said:

There's an awful lot of trash-talking about GRRM going on in this thread. I hope once TWOW is (finally) released, everyone here saying "He's just given up and will never finish," "He doesn't care anymore," "He has no regard for his fans," etc. etc. etc. will come back and admit they have no f*cking clue what they're talking about and are just making shit up because they're pissed the book isn't out yet. 

I want to read the damn thing too. Everyone is desperate to see what happens with Jon's resurrection, the Battle in the Snow, the Battle in Meereen, King's Landing, the Ironborn... but a bunch of keyboard warriors insulting someone from the anonymous safety of the internet? Complain all you want about the delay, 99% of the internet is just people bitching and moaning anyway. But anyone pretending to know what is going on inside a stranger's head should realize that they're utterly full of shit.

Indeed. 

[Entrisen]

5 hours ago, LS1Transam said:

By progress report i just mean something like "I'm xx% done and i have no idea when i'll be able to finish".  Though speculation from outside of his hardcore readers would go wild, but i think most of us who were fans of his from before the show would just be happy knowing where he stands right now.  

I can certainly understand why he wouldnt want to do this, but I just wish he'd do it as a show of respect for his long time fans.

He already was clear as day with his fans "it's done when it's done"

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That may be your impression, but that's all it is, your impression. I can understand why he doesn't want to talk about his progress and why he gets annoyed with people constantly asking, often times at the most inappropriate moments. 

As I've said before, regular updates saying, "X% done!" would mean fuck all. Because as Martin has said a gazillion times, he's a gardener. So he could post an update on August 1st saying, "99% done!" and then stumble onto a problem, a glitch in the narrative/flow that could get him stuck for months on end and even require re-writes of previously finished chapters. 

And it is annoying to have people asking about it all the time, and everyone losing their shit regularly because of what people see as "hints" that the book is done in everything he says and does. Especially because he has said many times already that when he's done he'll post it on his NaB. 

 

Indeed. 

He set that expectation himself.

 I can understand why it is annoying, but he said for several years actually that he expected the HBO series would not overtake the books.  That is setting an expectation that quite frankly would have put Winds out in 2014 or 2015, and would have meant a return to his 90s writing speed.  I may be remembering wrong, but I believe he was still saying he expected to outpace the show during it's 4th season, in 2014....but for such a belief to have been AT ALL reasonable, he would have to have been almost finished with Winds at that time...2 years ago.  But he wasn't, and he isn't.

I feel sorry for him that everything has spun out of control, bu all of it is his own doing.

[caravaggio]

Going back to write Stannis in as surviving and going on to be one of Jon's counselors takes time.

[sifth]

14 minutes ago, caravaggio said:

Going back to write Stannis in as surviving and going on to be one of Jon's counselors takes time.

You sure Jon's going to want a guy who burns his own daughter around. Than again from his Not Blog comment a while ago, I often wonder if that scene is even going to happen now.

[caravaggio]

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

You sure Jon's going to want a guy who burns his own daughter around. Than again from his Not Blog comment a while ago, I often wonder if that scene is even going to happen now.

Maybe, maybe not. Sorry, just goofing around a bit. I've lost all hope TWoW will be coming out this year.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

He set that expectation himself.

 I can understand why it is annoying, but he said for several years actually that he expected the HBO series would not overtake the books.  That is setting an expectation that quite frankly would have put Winds out in 2014 or 2015, and would have meant a return to his 90s writing speed.  I may be remembering wrong, but I believe he was still saying he expected to outpace the show during it's 4th season, in 2014....but for such a belief to have been AT ALL reasonable, he would have to have been almost finished with Winds at that time...2 years ago.  But he wasn't, and he isn't.

I feel sorry for him that everything has spun out of control, bu all of it is his own doing.

Oh, I know what you're saying. Still, none of this changes the fact that progress updates are useless in terms of knowing when the book is going to be published, which is part of the point I was making. Also, irt Martin still thinking that he'd manage to avoid the show overtaking the books, I find it hard to fault only his unrealistic optimism. I'd need to know a lot I don't to even form an opinion on the matter. For instance, I would like to know what was discussed between Martin and the show runners about how many series there would be. Why was Martin under the impression that Feast and Dance would be 2 series? Did he just assume it, or did they discuss this at some point? Because as unrealistic optimistic as he is, he's not crazy; so I tend to think that they were at least thinking more series and at some point decided against it. 

[SuperMario]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh, I know what you're saying. Still, none of this changes the fact that progress updates are useless in terms of knowing when the book is going to be published, which is part of the point I was making. Also, irt Martin still thinking that he'd manage to avoid the show overtaking the books, I find it hard to fault only his unrealistic optimism. I'd need to know a lot I don't to even form an opinion on the matter. For instance, I would like to know what was discussed between Martin and the show runners about how many series there would be. Why was Martin under the impression that Feast and Dance would be 2 series? Did he just assume it, or did they discuss this at some point? Because as unrealistic optimistic as he is, he's not crazy; so I tend to think that they were at least thinking more series and at some point decided against it. 

While I do agree with you about there being other factors and not just blaming Martin, I do feel he should have known about TV ideas and shows being floated, dropped and changed all the time considering his own TV background and cancelled shows. Because like you said, he's not crazy. But I think he was maybe unrealistically optimistic with his book progress and the potential TV series/material out there. Of course, I'm sure HBO and D&D could have fed him some bullshit as well.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh, I know what you're saying. Still, none of this changes the fact that progress updates are useless in terms of knowing when the book is going to be published, which is part of the point I was making. Also, irt Martin still thinking that he'd manage to avoid the show overtaking the books, I find it hard to fault only his unrealistic optimism. I'd need to know a lot I don't to even form an opinion on the matter. For instance, I would like to know what was discussed between Martin and the show runners about how many series there would be. Why was Martin under the impression that Feast and Dance would be 2 series? Did he just assume it, or did they discuss this at some point? Because as unrealistic optimistic as he is, he's not crazy; so I tend to think that they were at least thinking more series and at some point decided against it. 

At the end of the day, that doesn't matter, does it?  1 book per season+ 1 extra for Swords would still equal 8 seasons.  And he didn't get the book out this year any way.   Dan and Dave deserve a lot of blame, but the blame for the show overtaking the books lies squarely with the author.  I know we differ on the quality of Feast and Dance, but I can't imagine how or why he would have thought that Feast had a season's worth of TV and at one point he said Dance could be 2 seasons?  Good grief.   I always thought combining Feast and Dance into about 1.5 seasons was the right call....only I never expected the cutting and combining and TV only material to be as bat shit as it was.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 7/4/2016 at 1:34 PM, T and A said:

There are other authors who manage writing books in an apropriate time too. GRRM didn't invent complex and long Storytelling. One can argue to death, but the sad answer is: there is no excuse for his lag. Its unfair to us fans who has supported him for years, long before he got famous. Now he does not even answer our questions and deletes or forbid them from his blog. Its, at best, unproffesional. He may be a great author (which he undoubtly is), but as a person he has lost all his credibilities for me. 

Hey, I ain’t bashing Martin. The monkey is growing. That is the title of this thread. The simple assumption is that Martin is feeding the son of Kong. Feeding WoW. Feeding can be a positive or a negative. DwD was released 2011. Martin has read or posted how many chapters? Chapters which by the way, I am glad to have access to.

I will ask again. When does he have time to write?  My personal opinion is that he doesn't.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 7/4/2016 at 3:20 PM, Entrisen said:

I'm starting to get the impression slowly that he's giving up. And hasn't written much of the book at all. Much that is already written has been done for years, and he doesn't like where it's going, so he doesn't know how to go forward. I wouldn't be surprised at this point if he simply came out and said the book won't be released and ends the story with a few pages of epilogue instead. Dunno. If he wasn't so fussy and butt hurt over the very mention or hint of the book or even the series at all at this point then I would feel differently. But he seems to despise his fans of the series and seems to really get off about people talking about his books pre ASOIAF 

My personal opinion is that Martin has lost interest in the saga. That being said, it is gonna go one of two ways. He will complete the tale or he will procrastinate. I have come to the conclusion that I ain't gonna get my panties or drawers twisted in a bunch. I refuse to buy any ASOIAF merchandise until WoW is released. I didn't buy the "World" book. I didn't buy the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and I don't subscribe to the App.

Lest people forget after this WoW is released, the Son Kong, Kong being DwD, there is the grandson waiting to be born somewhere out there.

 

[SuperMario]

19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Hey, I ain’t bashing Martin. The monkey is growing. That is the title of this thread. The simple assumption is that Martin is feeding the son of Kong. Feeding WoW. Feeding can be a positive or a negative. DwD was released 2011. Martin has read or posted how many chapters? Chapters which by the way, I am glad to have access to.

I will ask again. When does he have time to write?  My personal opinion is that he doesn't.

Well, to answer your last question, he doesn't have as much time to write because he is particular about where and when he writes. A lot of authors write ideas as they come to them wherever and whenever. GRRM has stated many times he only writes at home when he is locked away in front of his 1980s computer. JK Rowling was fearful about the movie series catching up to her books, so in order to finish them, she locked herself away for a few months and plowed through them to conclusion with almost no breaks. GRRM doesn't really write in that way.

On an average week when Martin is at home, I have no idea how much he devotes to writing. But between his pet projects like his theater, the wolf sanctuary, all his other works he edits, plus other hobbies like the New York Jets and Giants, The Hugos and Conventions, reading and personal/married life, I would think maybe just a few hours a day tops? And a lot of that time working could just be staring at a screen lucky to get a few words out especially if the series doesn't interest him as much right now. I don't envy him for writing something this large. I'm just grateful it exists.

[SuperMario]

Double post

[Free Northman Reborn]

2 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

Well, to answer your last question, he doesn't have as much time to write because he is particular about where and when he writes. A lot of authors write ideas as they come to them wherever and whenever. GRRM has stated many times he only writes at home when he is locked away in front of his 1980s computer. JK Rowling was fearful about the movie series catching up to her books, so in order to finish them, she locked herself away for a few months and plowed through them to conclusion with almost no breaks. GRRM doesn't really write in that way.

On an average week when Martin is at home, I have no idea how much he devotes to writing. But between his pet projects like his theater, the wolf sanctuary, all his other works he edits, plus other hobbies like the New York Jets and Giants, The Hugos and Conventions, reading and personal/married life, I would think maybe just a few hours a day tops?

By contrast Robert Jordan - another guy who used to have rather long intervals between eagerly awaited books - used to state that he wrote about 8 hours every day on a weekday, taking weekends off. Basically doing a normal workday as if he had an office job.

That's the kind of discipline one can only admire.

[Clegane'sPup]

4 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

On an average week when Martin is at home, I have no idea how much he devotes to writing. But between his pet projects like his theater, the wolf sanctuary, all his other works he edits, plus other hobbies like the New York Jets and Giants, The Hugos and Conventions, reading and personal/married life, I would think maybe just a few hours a day tops?

Bingo.

[SuperMario]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

By contrast Robert Jordan - another guy who used to have rather long intervals between eagerly awaited books - used to state that he wrote about 8 hours every day on a weekday, taking weekends off. Basically doing a normal workday as if he had an office job.

That's the kind of discipline one can only admire.

Stephen King is very similar. He was talking about how much he can write in a day. He gives himself a goal to write a certain number of pages every day, and he says he usually hits it. That's why he can pump out 400 page books multiple times a year. And considering his quality is usually pretty high, that is very impressive.